[Blindtlk] NFB Guide Dog School, A Possible Scenario

Fri Mar 22 11:42:44 UTC 2013

Peter,

I like the idea of a guide dog module added onto your training if you're 
already attending immersion blindness training.  It makes sense to get 
all your training at one time, in one setting, with one group of 
instructors.  It's a more wholeistic approach.

However I don't think this approach would meet the needs of a majority 
of people who would be interested in a NFB guide dog program.  What 
about returning students for successor dogs?  Do they have to go through 
the whole thing again?  It probably wouldn't be necessary, but I'm just 
tossing out these questions as food for thought.

What about people who went through an NFB center years ago and now want 
a guide dog, how would that work?  What about people who have gone 
through center training in states that use structure discovery methods, 
but that are not NFB centers?   What about people who have full time 
jobs and need to use their limited vacation or medical leave to attend a 
guide dog program?  There is no way you could take off half a year from 
a job each time you wanted to train with a new dog.  Then there are the 
people with children at home, leaving kids for months and months would 
be pretty awful.

I think your idea of adding the guide dog training onto the end of NFB 
center training could work nicely, but I think it could be complemented 
by some more flexible options.   Perhaps home based training would be 
the way to go.  then the dog training could easily mesh into the life of 
the blind person without undue interruptions.  I agree that the person 
would have to have a strong foundation in structure discovery learning 
before getting the dog for this to work.  The person would have to be 
accustomed to problem solving, information gathering, and self 
reliance.  Perhaps completion of a sort of correspondence course before 
getting the dog to cover topics such as legal issues, health care, 
household management etc.  Then when the instructor and dog arrived 
every moment could be dedicated to actual work with the dog.

There's still a lot of details to be worked out, but I think its 
entirely doable.  My must haves in an NFB guide dog program would be: 
complete ownership upon graduation, optional follow up, no required 
yearly paperwork, a  considerable financial investment based on 
financial ability (maybe this could be the equivalent of one month's 
income?) and greater involvement in the dog selection process.   I also 
think we have to employ as many qualified blind people in all aspects of 
the program as is possible.  this means guide dog trainers and instructors.

Julie

On 3/21/2013 8:56 PM, Peter Donahue wrote:
> Good evening Justin and everyone,
>
>      Go where you wouldn't be required to take it. That statement comes from
> our center directors not me. I've heard them say it on numerous occasions
> that our center programs have a set curriculum all students must take to
> complete bootcamp and as prerequisites for enrollment in advanced training.
> Students wishing to become O&M instructors through Louisiana Tech and to be
> certified as NOMC Certificants are required to undergo a period of immersion
> training to receive NBPCB Certification. Learn more at: http://www.nbpcb.org
>
>      Those wishing to obtain a dog through an NFB operated guide dog program
> must be expected to do the same. This approach addresses many of the issues
> folks raised concerning placement of a guide dog in previous posts something
> that doesn't happen at traditional guide dog schools. It's one thing to
> judge one's suitability for a dog based solly on character references,
> medical reports, O&M reports, video footage, etc but quite another to have
> the opportunity to be able to work directly with the individual to insure
> that their blindness skills are up-to-snuff, get to know them on a personal
> level, and observe how they interact with people, animals, and in various
> life situations. An immersion training requirement for new guide dog
> candidates would do that and a whole lot more.
>
>      It may be that at the end of the immersion period the applicant may
> decide that a cane is a better match and decide that a dog is too much
> responsibility. At the end of the day the applicant gets some
> structured-discovery blindness training and a dog does not end up in an
> environment where it is not wanted and has been protected from possible
> mistreatment by its owner or others. If this became a reality guide dog
> training and placement could be brought to a whole new level.
>
> Peter Donahue
>
> sage -----
> From: "justin williams"<justin.williams2 at gmail.com>
> To: "'Blind Talk Mailing List'"<blindtlk at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Wednesday, March 20, 2013 7:49 PM
> Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] NFB Guide Dog School, A Possible Scenario
>
>
> What if you do not need the mobility training?
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: blindtlk [mailto:blindtlk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Peter
> Donahue
> Sent: Thursday, March 21, 2013 2:25 PM
> To: Blind Talk Mailing List
> Subject: [Blindtlk] NFB Guide Dog School, A Possible Scenario
>
> Good afternoon Julie and everyone,
>      Julie and I have had many conversations on this issue in the past so she
> knows where I'm coming from. In line with her comments below I'd like to
> suggest a possible scenario for an NFB-run guide dog program:
>
>          Since we all ready have three orientation and adjustment centers for
> blind adults and youth there would be no need for a facility for housing
> students in training to be constructed. Hold on folks. Students wishing to
> obtain a guide dog from the NFB's program would be required to complete the
> 6-9 month program at one of the centers. During the student's "Bootcamp
> training" the center has an opportunity to come to know the student
> inside-out and will be able to furnish lots of background information on the
> applicant to the guide dog unit. Unlike current guide dog programs that must
> rely on references and other information that may be true or false the NFB
> guide dog program will have all ready had accurate information gathered for
> them by the training center and can be assured that the applicant is a
> suitable candidate for a dog.
>
>      This approach will also assure the guide dog program that the student is
> up-to-par with their cane skills and is capable of transferring them to the
> use of a dog. Students that successfully complete the cane travel component
> of their immersion training would be eligible to receive a dog. This
> approach would also permit students receiving a dog to complete other
> aspects of their immersion training minimizing the wasted time students
> often experience when at guide dog training facilities.
>
>      Students undergoing guide dog instruction would be required to wear
> sleep shades as they do when taking other center classes and participating
> in designated center activities. Like students who undergo cane travel
> instruction at our centers those training with dogs would be encouraged to
> travel on their own prior to completion of the training. In the beginning
> they could be accompanied by an experienced guide dog user/trainer but would
> be expected to travel and complete "Monster Routes" entirely on their own
> using their dogs.
>
>      As for the dog component of the operation I imagine it would operate
> similar to those of current guide dog programs. The program would operate
> its own breeding component or obtain suitable dogs from donations. The usual
> period of socialization and puppy raising wouldn't be that much different
> than is done by current guide dog programs. The dogs would return for a
> period of training when they're taught how to guide a blind person. Once the
> dogs are ready to be pared with their future blind owner they along with an
> instructor would be sent to the center where the student receiving the dog
> will be trained. Alternatively the NFB guide dog program could operate from
> one of our centers. Those wishing to obtain dogs once their "Bootcamp"
> training is complete would transfer to that center for training with the
> dog. Using all ready existing facilities to house students in training is
> one way to reduce the cost of training guide dogs.
>
>      The above is just one possible scenario of how an NFB-run guide dog
> program could work but I'm sure others would have additional ideas. If it's
> to happen at all the discussion must continue at a cost of 0 to
> participants. All the best.
>
> Peter Donahue
>
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Julie J."<julielj at neb.rr.com>
> To: "Blind Talk Mailing List"<blindtlk at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Thursday, March 21, 2013 8:08 AM
> Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] Canes and Dogs, the In-House Checkup
>
>
> I think the answer to protecting the dogs is two fold.  First I would
> like to see a more in depth background investigation of the blind
> applicant.  Do a criminal background check, require more references, ask
> the neighbors...whatever it takes.  Adoption agencies place children
> into homes surely we can figure out a way to more accurately know what
> sort of situation the dog will be placed into.  Secondly, I think there
> are already agencies in place for dealing with animal abuse, the police
> and animal control.  I don't see any reason why these agencies can't be
> used in cases of neglect or abuse.
>
> In regard to cost and the blind applicant absorbing the cost of the dog
> in order to own the dog outright is an extremely valid point.  We have
> to stop expecting everything for nothing.  I like the Seeing Eye's
> concept of charging the student.  I do wish that the cost had increased
> over the years with the cost of living.  It has been $150 since the
> beginning of the school in 1928.  I think that's the right year.  $150
> was a very different sum of money then and now.
>
> I also think that guide dogs can be raised and trained for substantially
> lower sums of money than $60,000.  If you look at the various guide dog
> programs and how much each claims it costs to train a dog, the numbers
> vary widely.  All those buildings, fancy food, excessive equipment and
> other niceties cost money.
>
> Julie
>
>
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