[Blindtlk] NFB Guide Dog School, A Possible Scenario

Sat Mar 23 03:49:37 UTC 2013

David,

Well, then, I probbably won't be going to an NFB center. You're right
that I am relatively young, but don't assume that makes me stupid--I
have had to deal with advocacy and consumer rights issues in the past.
Part of my problem with the NFB is that you have to accept the
"package"--well, I already *have* a lot of the package. This is what I
am saying. Every once in awhile I will bring up the topic of, for
example, structured discovery and how it works with an NFB member and
I receive responses like this. They do the very opposite of encourage
me to investigate more.

On 3/22/13, David Andrews <dandrews at visi.com> wrote:
> Kelby:
>
> The way our NFB Centers teach things isn't as black and white as I
> think you think it is.  You can't learn mobility their way by going
> to a class an hour or two a day for a few weeks.  The whole thing is
> really a package deal, and students support each other, instructors
> work with students, things you learn in one class are reenforced in
> other classes etc.  You are being taught how to be a blind guy and
> how to prosper in  a sighted world.  The specific skills training is
> a part of it, but there is also attitude training.  I think you are
> relatively young and you probably haven't been knocked about -- so to
> speak.  You probably will be, most of us are, and our centers teach
> us how to deal with the slings and arrows of the sighted public, and
> how to move on, and much more.
>
> This isn't to say that this is the only way to do it -- but it works,
> and it is the way we do it.
>
> People want the benefits, but don't want to pay the price in time and
> effort.  It doesn't work that way.  A good center challenges and
> pushes you.  If you are good in one skill you may get a little less
> of it, and./or you may be challenged by teaching others, or something
> else.  A good center personalizes your program so it works for you.
>
> Dave
>
> At 11:09 PM 3/21/2013, you wrote:
>>I keep hearing this in NFB literature and from federationists-that
>>my local training simply must have been far, far inferior to
>>anything the NFB has.  I have as of yet seen no actual compelling
>>evidence for this claim, and no one I know well in the NFB has
>>offered me convincing reasons as to why the training I have is
>>bad.  (Those who don't know me can't offer any reasons, as they
>>don't know my context.) If NFB mobility is so wonderful, I wish they
>>would allow people interested to pay for a little instruction to get
>>a sense of their methodology in real space time rather than forcing
>>people to commit to six to nine months.
>>
>>Kelby
>>
>>
>>
>>----- Original Message -----
>>From: cheryl echevarria <cherylandmaxx at hotmail.com
>>To: Blind Talk Mailing List <blindtlk at nfbnet.org
>>Date sent: Thu, 21 Mar 2013 23:56:35 -0400
>>Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] NFB Guide Dog School, A Possible Scenario
>>
>>Well we all need good mobility skills.  A dog is not a replacement
>>for mobility skills.  Whether you use a cane, sighted guide, or a guide
>> dog.
>>If you haven't been to an NFB School over the training you get
>>locally then you don't know what you are missing.
>>Never going to them myself.  I have seen what someone with no
>>knowledge of any of the services or very little in there own areas,
>>and come back from our schools with the confidence and the mobility
>>and the other services that are given there.
>>If NFB is interested in forming a guide dog school on the NFB's
>>philosophy then it comes with the first steps in mobility and then a
>>dog.  I have not been blind all my life.  I lost my vision as an
>>adult, and I learned the mobility and cane skills, my dog doesn't
>>know when to cross the street, I have to give him the direction to do so.
>>Know if I am mistaken in what is being said, I am the first to
>>mention when I am wrong, but there will be a day that we will either
>>not want to take our dogs places, by our own choice, or in between a
>>dog, or whatever the issues are.  That I know the skills to get me
>>where I want to go whether it is with my Maxx or not.
>>Have a great night all.
>>Take care and god bless.
>>Whatever decision is met and decided should be done with kindness to
>>one another; and with the philosophy of the great organization.
>>Cheryl Echevarria, PresidentNFB Travel & Tourism
>>
>>Disabled Entrepreneur of the Year 2012 of NY State
>>Leading the Way in Independent Travel!SNG Certified - Accessible
>>Travel Advocate!Cheryl Echevarria,
>>Ownerhttp://www.echevarriatravel.com631-456-5394reservations@eche
>>varriatravel.comhttp://www.echevarriatravel.wordpress.com2012
>>Norwegian Cruise Line University Advisory Board Member.
>>Affiliated as an independent contractor with Montrose TravelCST -
>>#1018299-10Echevarria Travel and proud member of the National
>>Federation of the Blind will be holding a year round fundraiser for
>>the http://www.NFBNY.org after Hurricane Sandy and other
>>resources.  Any vacation package booked between November 6
>>2012-November 6, 2013 and vacation must be traveled no later than
>>12/30/2014 a percentage of my earnings will go to the affiliate.
>>Also is you book a Sandals for couples or Beaches for families and
>>friends resorts vacation, $100.00 per booking will go to the
>>affiliate as well.  You do not need to be a member of the NFB.org,
>>just book through us.
>>
>>
>>Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2013 21:18:49 -0500
>>From: kelbycarlson at gmail.com
>>To: blindtlk at nfbnet.org
>>Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] NFB Guide Dog School, A Possible Scenario
>>
>>I'll echo what Cindysaid.  There isno way I would give up that
>>much time for mobility training I already had purely for the
>>purpose of getting a dog.  ZPeter said, I would go somewhere else
>>straightaway.
>>
>>Kelby
>>
>>
>>
>>  ----- Original Message -----
>>From: "Cindy Handel" <cindy425 at verizon.net
>>To: "Blind Talk Mailing List" <blindtlk at nfbnet.org
>>Date sent: Thu, 21 Mar 2013 21:56:01 -0400
>>Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] NFB Guide Dog School, A Possible Scenario
>>
>>When the NFB centers were started, many years ago, there was a
>>real lack of
>>quality training for blind people.  I don't really think that's
>>the case
>>with guide schools.  There are some schools which do things
>>differently from
>>others.  But, there are people who prefer one approach over
>>another.  I
>>don't really think that NFB needs to get involved with guide dog
>>training.
>>
>>As for Peter's suggestion that students would go through the nine
>>month NFB
>>center training, first, this will severely limit the number of
>>people
>>choosing to have training from an NFB guide dog school, should
>>one be
>>started.  I don't know to many people who can give up a year of
>>their life
>>to get a guide dog.
>>
>>Cindy
>>
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: Peter Donahue
>>Sent: Thursday, March 21, 2013 2:25 PM
>>To: Blind Talk Mailing List
>>Subject: [Blindtlk] NFB Guide Dog School, A Possible Scenario
>>
>>Good afternoon Julie and everyone,
>>     Julie and I have had many conversations on this issue in the
>>past so she
>>knows where I'm coming from.  In line with her comments below I'd
>>like to
>>suggest a possible scenario for an NFB-run guide dog program:
>>
>>         Since we all ready have three orientation and adjustment
>>centers for
>>blind adults and youth there would be no need for a facility for
>>housing
>>students in training to be constructed.  Hold on folks.
>>Students
>>wishing to
>>obtain a guide dog from the NFB's program would be required to
>>complete the
>>6-9 month program at one of the centers.  During the student's
>>"Bootcamp
>>training" the center has an opportunity to come to know the
>>student
>>inside-out and will be able to furnish lots of background
>>information on the
>>applicant to the guide dog unit.  Unlike current guide dog
>>programs that must
>>rely on references and other information that may be true or
>>false the NFB
>>guide dog program will have all ready had accurate information
>>gathered for
>>them by the training center and can be assured that the applicant
>>is a
>>suitable candidate for a dog.
>>
>>     This approach will also assure the guide dog program that the
>>student is
>>up-to-par with their cane skills and is capable of transferring
>>them to the
>>use of a dog.  Students that successfully complete the cane
>>travel component
>>of their immersion training would be eligible to receive a dog.
>>This
>>approach would also permit students receiving a dog to complete
>>other
>>aspects of their immersion training minimizing the wasted time
>>students
>>often experience when at guide dog training facilities.
>>
>>     Students undergoing guide dog instruction would be required
>>to wear
>>sleep shades as they do when taking other center classes and
>>participating
>>in designated center activities.  Like students who undergo cane
>>travel
>>instruction at our centers those training with dogs would be
>>encouraged to
>>travel on their own prior to completion of the training.  In the
>>beginning
>>they could be accompanied by an experienced guide dog
>>user/trainer but would
>>be expected to travel and complete "Monster Routes" entirely on
>>their own
>>using their dogs.
>>
>>     As for the dog component of the operation I imagine it would
>>operate
>>similar to those of current guide dog programs.  The program
>>would operate
>>its own breeding component or obtain suitable dogs from
>>donations.  The usual
>>period of socialization and puppy raising wouldn't be that much
>>different
>>than is done by current guide dog programs.  The dogs would
>>return for a
>>period of training when they're taught how to guide a blind
>>person.  Once the
>>dogs are ready to be pared with their future blind owner they
>>along with an
>>instructor would be sent to the center where the student
>>receiving the dog
>>will be trained.  Alternatively the NFB guide dog program could
>>operate from
>>one of our centers.  Those wishing to obtain dogs once their
>>"Bootcamp"
>>training is complete would transfer to that center for training
>>with the
>>dog.  Using all ready existing facilities to house students in
>>training is
>>one way to reduce the cost of training guide dogs.
>>
>>     The above is just one possible scenario of how an NFB-run
>>guide dog
>>program could work but I'm sure others would have additional
>>ideas.  If it's
>>to happen at all the discussion must continue at a cost of 0 to
>>participants.  All the best.
>>
>>Peter Donahue
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>----- Original Message -----
>>From: "Julie J." <julielj at neb.rr.com
>>To: "Blind Talk Mailing List" <blindtlk at nfbnet.org
>>Sent: Thursday, March 21, 2013 8:08 AM
>>Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] Canes and Dogs, the In-House Checkup
>>
>>
>>I think the answer to protecting the dogs is two fold.  First I
>>would
>>like to see a more in depth background investigation of the blind
>>applicant.  Do a criminal background check, require more
>>references, ask
>>the neighbors...whatever it takes.  Adoption agencies place
>>children
>>into homes surely we can figure out a way to more accurately know
>>what
>>sort of situation the dog will be placed into.  Secondly, I think
>>there
>>are already agencies in place for dealing with animal abuse, the
>>police
>>and animal control.  I don't see any reason why these agencies
>>can't be
>>used in cases of neglect or abuse.
>>
>>In regard to cost and the blind applicant absorbing the cost of
>>the dog
>>in order to own the dog outright is an extremely valid point.
>>We
>>have
>>to stop expecting everything for nothing.  I like the Seeing
>>Eye's
>>concept of charging the student.  I do wish that the cost had
>>increased
>>over the years with the cost of living.  It has been $150 since
>>the
>>beginning of the school in 1928.  I think that's the right year.
>>$150
>>was a very different sum of money then and now.
>>
>>I also think that guide dogs can be raised and trained for
>>substantially
>>lower sums of money than $60,000.  If you look at the various
>>guide dog
>>programs and how much each claims it costs to train a dog, the
>>numbers
>>vary widely.  All those buildings, fancy food, excessive
>>equipment and
>>other niceties cost money.
>>
>>Julie
>
>
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