[Diabetes-talk] Different Diet
Bridgit Kuenning-Pollpeter
bkpollpeter at gmail.com
Wed Oct 26 02:18:59 UTC 2016
Yes, baby number 2 due in February. A little unexpected surprise for our
family, grin.
Bridgit
-----Original Message-----
From: Diabetes-Talk [mailto:diabetes-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of
Bernadette Jacobs via Diabetes-Talk
Sent: Tuesday, October 25, 2016 3:30 PM
To: Diabetes Talk for the Blind <diabetes-talk at nfbnet.org>
Cc: Bernadette Jacobs <bernienfb75 at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Diabetes-talk] Different Diet
Bridget, did I hear you say you were pregnant??? Good for you!!! Blessings
to you and your family!! This is so exciting!! I'm happy for you!!
Bern.
Sent from my iPhone
> On Oct 25, 2016, at 4:05 PM, Sandra Ryan via Diabetes-Talk
<diabetes-talk at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>
> Hi Bridgit,
>
> I didn't think it was. You had said that before. And my comments were
> not intended as a direct response to anything you've said, just to
> provide the science that tells people there's no good reason to cut
> out whole food groups. I believe I also said (and meant) that we are
> adults and will do what we'll do. I have, myself, said I followed
> Atkins for a time and found a bit of benefit. At one of our DAN
> meetings I talked about ways to fit in the diet you like best.
>
> Forgive my dietitian-ness. I'm afraid it's built in.
>
> I'll butt out of this discussion now, having added what I thought
> needed to be said for everyone's benefit.
>
> Sandi
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Diabetes-Talk [mailto:diabetes-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
> Behalf Of Bridgit Kuenning-Pollpeter via Diabetes-Talk
> Sent: Tuesday, October 25, 2016 1:25 PM
> To: 'Diabetes Talk for the Blind'
> Cc: Bridgit Kuenning-Pollpeter
> Subject: Re: [Diabetes-talk] Different Diet
>
> Sandy,
>
> My comment was not an argument for or against Paleo or any other diet.
> Just a mere observation made from both research and what I know of
> most people. I don't disagree with you, but if going to have a
> discussion on food and diet, we all need to be honest and consider every
angle.
>
> I mostly started Paleo because I could not drop the remaining 10
> pounds from my pregnancy. I found it to help me take off the extra few
> pounds in addition to intensifying my exercise program. Now I'm
> pregnant again, so I'm not so hard-core about sticking to Paleo or
> exercising as frequently as I was before. But even before doing Paleo,
> I was a pretty healthy eater, at least in terms of the type of food I
> eat. In all honesty, I problem do not eat enough calories in a day as
> I should, but when my schedule gets busy, I tend to eat less.
> Fortunately for me, I'm not a binger and am used to ignoring hunger,
> so I don't typically end up eating more later. I keep to 3 meals, but
> often small things I can eat quickly, like turkey wraps or an apple
> and cheese or a Greek yogurt. I don't always take the time to prepare
> a full meal. But when I did Paleo, I did find that cutting out wheat
> and grains for me helped with a lot of things, including glucose
> control. My endo has been very encouraging of Paleo as well. So once I
> have this baby, I plan to try it more intensively again, though like I
already have said, I do keep dairy in and specifically hummus, which is made
from legumes.
>
> I'm not a pusher of medication for anything unless absolutely
> necessary. I do take a vitamin C yearly, and obviously, now pregnant,
> I take a daily vitamin, though it's just a kids vitamin on top of folic
acid 3 times a day.
> But I do not think supplementing pills can make up for eating whole,
> fresh foods. I would never encourage anyone to do this, especially if
> they think they are getting the exact same nutrition.
>
> I know vegans who are super healthy. Their yearly doctor visits show
> they are in great shape, lacking nothing. They do a vegan diet in the
> proper way, making sure to eat as balanced of a diet as possible on a
> vegan diet. I also know people who don't cut anything out but keep to
> a low-carb diet and are in great health too. It's all about what works
> for you, and if you can maintain a lifestyle. It's about personal
> choices in addition to health. At the end of the day, if you are in
> good health, and something works, why change?
>
> Bridgit
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Diabetes-Talk [mailto:diabetes-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
> Behalf Of Sandra Ryan via Diabetes-Talk
> Sent: Tuesday, October 25, 2016 12:18 PM
> To: 'Diabetes Talk for the Blind' <diabetes-talk at nfbnet.org>
> Cc: Sandra Ryan <sjryan2 at gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [Diabetes-talk] Different Diet
>
> That isn't actually true, Bridgit. It has been said over and over, but
> if an American eats healthy, we get enough calories and have enough
> food readily available (unless we live in "food deserts or are very
> poor") to get all the nutrients we need. Because of all the food
> available to us, we often eat too much or choose foods that aren't as
> healthy as they might be, so there may be people who need a standard
> multi-vitamin. Generally, though, we are not malnourished, but
> overnourished. And many of our manufactured foods have nutrients added
> (enriched grains in bread, crackers, cereals, pretzels,
> etc.) or are "fortified" with them (Vitamin D in milk products). The
> reason for the myth that our diets are lousy and need supplementing
> comes from the production of millions of bottles of many supplements
> developed by manufacturers ... to make them rich! When a company
> creates a product, the first thing they do is develop a market for
> that product, not with the goal of making Americans healthier, but
> with the goal of making their pockets bulge. And because of the way
> the laws are currently written, there are no regulations on
> supplements as there are on medications. So a person can read on the
> Internet "I have found that taking 1,000 times the recommended dose of
> this supplement makes me feel young and alive," go to the drugstore
> and buy that supplement, and be on their way. That's not exactly what
we're talking about here with multivitamins and such, but it can grow to
that.
>
> I guess my biggest question about most diets that are highly
> restrictive and cut out whole food groups is why? What does one gain
> by doing that? I have the same question about "health foods" that are
> manufactured to be low in fat, or sometimes, low in sugar. Why? It
> makes so much more sense to eat the foods (all the foods) you love and
> eat them in smaller portions than to buy manufactured foods and
> supplements to make up for the foods you cut out. In the case of the
> Paleo diet, you're cuttting out two classes of foods, whole grains and
> legumes, that are packed with nutrition and of which small amounts
> could provide a fair amount of what you eat. If you don't like those
> foods, certainly there are other foods that can provide those
> nutrients--beans (legumes) are an excellent meat equivalent--but if
> you eat both meat and legumes, you get more variety and thus more
> nutrition. The reason for specifying whole grains is that they have
> their natural nutrients, instead of having those nutrients milled out then
added back as synthetics.
>
> The exceptions to my supplement rant are: While you are pregnant or
> nursing you need a multivitamin specific to a pregnant woman. That's
> because you are not only feeding yourself but your fetus, and it would
> be hard to eat enough for both of you. During this time, you also need
more calories.
>
> People who do not get sun frequently enough (10-15 minutes several
> days a
> week) and/or don't use dairy products, need Vitamin D. And likely
> calcium, since as I said, there is some calcium in veggies, but not
> enough. And calcium and Vitamin D work together, so it's good to
> supplement them that way.
>
> And if your diet is really horrible--no veggies or fruits, mostly
> lower-quality foods (fast-food every day), take a multivitamin. It
> can't hurt and might help. The problem is, it won't make your diet
> better, which is the only thing that can make you truly healthier.
>
> So there's the science.
> Does it change anything? It doesn't have to. We act mostly on our
> beliefs, which may be valid or not, but they are ours. I have things I
> do because I believe them, too, even knowing they're not true. But
> thanks for indulging me to tell the truth about eating and especially,
> about supplements. Some work, most don't, and what you get in that
> bottle often isn't what you expect, because of the complete lack of
> regulation. In fresh foods, you can know pretty much what you're
> getting, and there is even more regulation of foods than of
> supplements, so you can be surer of foods than supplements anyway.
>
> Now you can choose what to eat and what to supplement or skip, and you
> can do it knowing the science behind the truth.
>
> Sandi
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Diabetes-Talk [mailto:diabetes-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
> Behalf Of Bridgit Kuenning-Pollpeter via Diabetes-Talk
> Sent: Tuesday, October 25, 2016 11:06 AM
> To: 'Diabetes Talk for the Blind'
> Cc: Bridgit Kuenning-Pollpeter
> Subject: Re: [Diabetes-talk] Different Diet
>
> Very few people, even those who eat healthy, get the adequate amount
> of nutrition in a day. Most of us should probably be on daily vitamins
> in order to receive proper nutrition, smile.
>
> Bridgit
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Diabetes-Talk [mailto:diabetes-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
> Behalf Of Sandra Ryan via Diabetes-Talk
> Sent: Monday, October 24, 2016 10:14 PM
> To: 'Diabetes Talk for the Blind' <diabetes-talk at nfbnet.org>
> Cc: Sandra Ryan <sjryan2 at gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [Diabetes-talk] Different Diet
>
> There is some calcium in some of the vegetables. Probably not enough,
> though. I haven't read about Paleo lately, but some of the diets
> recommend taking a multivitamin each day that contains 100-150 percent
> of each vitamin's RDA, and taking a calcium supplement with Vitamin D
> (cholecalciferol, not ergocalciferol) to make sure you get all the
> nutrients you need.
>
> Sandi
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Diabetes-Talk [mailto:diabetes-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
> Behalf Of Bridgit Kuenning-Pollpeter via Diabetes-Talk
> Sent: Monday, October 24, 2016 8:36 PM
> To: 'Diabetes Talk for the Blind'
> Cc: Bridgit Kuenning-Pollpeter
> Subject: Re: [Diabetes-talk] Different Diet
>
> Not sure, but it would be the same for someone doing vegan, or if you
> have allergies to dairy.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Diabetes-Talk [mailto:diabetes-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
> Behalf Of Veronica Elsea via Diabetes-Talk
> Sent: Monday, October 24, 2016 3:34 PM
> To: 'Diabetes Talk for the Blind' <diabetes-talk at nfbnet.org>
> Cc: Veronica Elsea <veronica at laurelcreekmusic.com>
> Subject: Re: [Diabetes-talk] Different Diet
>
> How is this diet for calcium. My inclusion of Greek yogurt and cheese
> has stopped my rheumatologist from threatening me with calcium pills.
> Now I'll have to hit Google. <grin> Thanks for the info.
> Veronica
>
>
> "Guide Dogs, First Hand", Veronica Elsea's classic album is now
> available on iTunes, along with other music from her and from the Guide
Dog Glee Club.
> To learn more, visit:
> http://www.laurelcreekmusic.com
> Veronica Elsea, Owner
> Laurel Creek Music Designs
> Santa Cruz, California
> Phone: 831-429-6407
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Diabetes-Talk [mailto:diabetes-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
> Behalf Of Bridgit Kuenning-Pollpeter via Diabetes-Talk
> Sent: Monday, October 24, 2016 10:58 AM
> To: 'Diabetes Talk for the Blind'
> Cc: Bridgit Kuenning-Pollpeter
> Subject: Re: [Diabetes-talk] Different Diet
>
> Fortunately for me, I'm not a coffee drinker, grin.
>
> Bridgit
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Diabetes-Talk [mailto:diabetes-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
> Behalf Of Mark Tardif via Diabetes-Talk
> Sent: Monday, October 24, 2016 11:37 AM
> To: Diabetes Talk for the Blind <diabetes-talk at nfbnet.org>
> Cc: Mark Tardif <markspark at roadrunner.com>
> Subject: Re: [Diabetes-talk] Different Diet
>
> Give up coffee? That's an essential food, especially if it comes from
> Starbucks or Tim Horton's, the coffee shop up here in northern Maine.
LOL.
>
>
>
> Mark Tardif
> Nuclear arms will not hold you.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Bridgit Kuenning-Pollpeter via Diabetes-Talk
> Sent: Monday, October 24, 2016 12:04 PM
> To: 'Diabetes Talk for the Blind'
> Cc: Bridgit Kuenning-Pollpeter
> Subject: Re: [Diabetes-talk] Different Diet
>
> Bern,
>
> If you Google Paleo diet, a ton pops up.
>
> Basically, you cut out grains, wheat, dairy, refined sugar, legumes,
> and technically you eat all organic. People do modified versions of
> Paleo, like some still include dairy, or some will still have wheat
> and grains at times, though you should limit them even on a modified
> version. A majority of carbs will come from fruit and some veggies
> like sweet potatoes. You should avoid or sparingly use regular
> potatoes. Typically you also cut out soda and coffe and tea unless
> herbal, though, again, if doing modified version, you can have these
> things from time-to-time. And if you can't do organic for everything,
that's okay.
>
> It's not as difficult to implement as you think. I found it
> overwhelming at first, as I researched it, but once I started, it was not
so difficult.
>
> I do a modified version as I still do Greek yogurt at times and
> hummus, which is made from legumes.
>
> An example of my daily meals may be 2 eggs cooked in coconut oil and a
> banana with turkey sausage for breakfast. For lunch, grilled chicken
> with a dry rub, lettuce salad with olive oil and red vinegar home-made
> dressing and veggie chips. Dinner may be more grilled meat or a
> lettuce wrap sandwhich, carrot fries baked in coconut oil and another
> salad. Snacks are nuts and seeds, fruit and veggies, Larabars, etc. A lot
of Paleo recipes are online.
> My picky son and husband enjoy a lot of the recipes I have found.
>
> Bridgit
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Diabetes-Talk [mailto:diabetes-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
> Behalf Of Bernadette Jacobs via Diabetes-Talk
> Sent: Sunday, October 23, 2016 8:52 PM
> To: Diabetes Talk for the Blind <diabetes-talk at nfbnet.org>
> Cc: Bernadette Jacobs <bernienfb75 at gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [Diabetes-talk] Different Diet
>
> Good Evening Everyone:
>
> Sandi and Veronica, I'm with you both. I would say with whatever I
> eat, I seem to operate similarly with the two of you. However, I do
> have a niece who is on the Paleo thing. For what I've heard, I find
> interesting. I'd actually like to learn more if someone could explain
> to me. My niece tried to send me a link but I couldn't seem to pull it up
for whatever reason.
> Brigit, Maybe you and I can topuch base sometime. I'd really like to
learn.
>
> Have a wonderful, restful evening Bill and I are going to retire for
> the evening very soon here.
>
> Bern
>
>
>
>
> On 10/23/16, Veronica Elsea via Diabetes-Talk
> <diabetes-talk at nfbnet.org>
> wrote:
>> What really sparked some of my comments was attending an event a
>> couple of weeks ago where box lunches were provided. A woman was
>> attending who was prescribed this diet called whole foods plant based
>> diet. And I don't mean the grocery store. <grin> But there was
>> nothing
> there that she could eat.
>> She managed to take a sandwich apart and munch a piece of turkey. I
>> suppose once one has reached a certain level of commitment, perhaps
>> the feeling of deprivation isn't so strong but I just found it hard
>> to picure on a daily basis for me. But I've been around long enough
>> never to say never! <grin> Veronica
>>
>> "Guide Dogs, First Hand", Veronica Elsea's classic album is now
>> available on iTunes, along with other music from her and from the
>> Guide Dog Glee Club.
>> To learn more, visit:
>> http://www.laurelcreekmusic.com
>> Veronica Elsea, Owner
>> Laurel Creek Music Designs
>> Santa Cruz, California
>> Phone: 831-429-6407
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Diabetes-Talk [mailto:diabetes-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>> Behalf Of Bridgit Kuenning-Pollpeter via Diabetes-Talk
>> Sent: Saturday, October 22, 2016 8:10 PM
>> To: 'Diabetes Talk for the Blind'
>> Cc: Bridgit Kuenning-Pollpeter
>> Subject: Re: [Diabetes-talk] Different Diet
>>
>> I agree about dieting. I don't believe in dieting. I do believe in
>> making adjustments to lifestyle and learning to consistently work
>> with a particular mealplan, whatever that may be for any given
>> person. In all things, I think balance is key.
>>
>> I don't know about research, but from personal experience, as a type
>> one diabetic who is insulin dependent, when I tried Atkins, I found
>> my blood sugars actually were all over the place, particularly
>> running higher. I had to incorporate some form of carbs for a balance
>> to my glucose levels. Paleo does not cut out all carbs, just wheat
>> and grains, so this has worked very well for me. Again, doesn't mean
>> what works for me will for someone else, but this has been my
>> personal experience. And again, I have no actual medical research to
>> back anything up on no-carbs, but this was what happened for me.
>>
>> Bridgit
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Diabetes-Talk [mailto:diabetes-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>> Behalf Of Sandra Ryan via Diabetes-Talk
>> Sent: Saturday, October 22, 2016 8:08 PM
>> To: 'Diabetes Talk for the Blind' <diabetes-talk at nfbnet.org>
>> Cc: Sandra Ryan <sjryan2 at gmail.com>
>> Subject: Re: [Diabetes-talk] Different Diet
>>
>> What the research really shows is that nearly any eating pattern you
>> can maintain can work for you.
>>
>> And again, giving up whole groups of food isn't conducive in the
>> long-term to stable eating and good health. A lot of the research
>> around vegetarian diets is based on hypotheses about how much better
>> they are for the environment.
>>
>> Having said that, we are adults here, and one can choose to try
>> nearly any diet, particularly as a well-controlled Type 2. I did
>> Atkins for about two years. What I found was that the induction phase
>> (to which I added nuts and berries from Day 1) helped me kick the
>> truly meaningless products we tend to overeat--foods with lots of
>> sugar and white flour (or other flour, for that matter), and
>> processed foods like chips, crackers, cereals, etc.
>>
>> But I found I'm not willing to skip sweets when they're the basis of
>> a birthday party, for instance. I decided about 20 years ago that I
>> do not diet. I eat the foods I truly want at a given meal or snack,
>> in reasonable portions, and try to balance my eating over time--a
>> week, say--rather than stick to an inflexible meal plan.
>>
>> Occasionally, such as Thursday, I eat chips or crackers or something
>> when I'm out. Thursday I had homemade corn chips with homemade salsa.
>> I think it was six or 7 chips and maybe 1/4 cup salsa. Very tasty,
>> and not something I eat at home more than a time or two a year.
>>
>> Try making every food available to yourself, picking those foods you
>> really want to eat, working to balance your meals and snacks with
>> foods you maybe don't crave but like to keep things healthy, and make
>> feeding yourself so you're not hungry between times a goal. Remember
>> that you can eat carbs--you just need to pay attention and not eat
>> too many, and get enough protein and fat to keep your body satisfied.
>>
>> The one thing I think is important for people using insulin is to be
>> aware that you need to be careful about eating very low-carb,
>> particularly if your body produces no insulin. That's a subject I'm
>> less familiar with, since I was not a diabetes dietitian, and do not
>> use insulin.
>>
>> Balance is important. And remember these are general guidelines, not
>> a prescription. If you need your personal diet adjusted or help with
>> knowing exactly how to fit your eating into your lifestyle, please
>> consult a currently practicing dietitian.
>>
>> Sandi
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Diabetes-Talk [mailto:diabetes-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>> Behalf Of Bridgit Kuenning-Pollpeter via Diabetes-Talk
>> Sent: Saturday, October 22, 2016 7:23 PM
>> To: 'Diabetes Talk for the Blind'
>> Cc: Bridgit Kuenning-Pollpeter
>> Subject: Re: [Diabetes-talk] Different Diet
>>
>> More and more research shows the positive effect of such diets, but
>> again, if you truly don't have the discipline to follow and just
>> really enjoy certain foods, it's better to stick to a mealplan you
>> can consistently follow instead of starting and stopping another.
>>
>> Personally, I like the Paleo mealplan. I started this this past
>> winter and stuck with it until I became pregnant. I'm not majorly
>> cheating on it, but once I have this baby, I plan to go back full on it.
>> Essentially, you cut out wheat, grains, dairy and refined sugars.
>> You're supposed to eat organic too, but I just do it as much as possible.
> Most my carbs come from fruit.
>> You can do modified versions of Paleo where you keep dairy or certain
>> kind of grains. I've found cutting out wheat and grains to make a
>> huge difference with my digestive system and blood sugars. I do have
>> Greek yogurt from time-to-time too. Personally, I don't find this to
>> be a super restrictive diet, nor that difficult to follow. But it can
>> take time to adjust. It does require a little food prep for most
>> meals, but it's not a major problem, in my opinion.
>>
>> Bridgit
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Diabetes-Talk [mailto:diabetes-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>> Behalf Of Veronica Elsea via Diabetes-Talk
>> Sent: Saturday, October 22, 2016 7:06 PM
>> To: 'Diabetes Talk for the Blind' <diabetes-talk at nfbnet.org>
>> Cc: Veronica Elsea <veronica at laurelcreekmusic.com>
>> Subject: Re: [Diabetes-talk] Different Diet
>>
>> Here at our medical clinic, they are pushing this diet as an anti
>> inflammatory diet. So if you go see a physiatrist for, say, neck
>> pain, you get put into classes to learn this diet. I'm having a hard
>> time quite buying it. I can see cutting back on things but total
>> elimination? Not at my house.
>> <grin>
>> Veronica
>>
>>
>> "Guide Dogs, First Hand", Veronica Elsea's classic album is now
>> available on iTunes, along with other music from her and from the
>> Guide Dog Glee Club.
>> To learn more, visit:
>> http://www.laurelcreekmusic.com
>> Veronica Elsea, Owner
>> Laurel Creek Music Designs
>> Santa Cruz, California
>> Phone: 831-429-6407
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Diabetes-Talk [mailto:diabetes-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>> Behalf Of g melconian via Diabetes-Talk
>> Sent: Saturday, October 22, 2016 4:39 PM
>> To: 'Diabetes Talk for the Blind'
>> Cc: g melconian
>> Subject: Re: [Diabetes-talk] Different Diet
>>
>> Sandy good to know. Also anytoher tipsthat you amy have for us.
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Diabetes-Talk [mailto:diabetes-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>> Behalf Of Sandra Ryan via Diabetes-Talk
>> Sent: Saturday, October 22, 2016 4:19 PM
>> To: 'Diabetes Talk for the Blind' <diabetes-talk at nfbnet.org>
>> Cc: Sandra Ryan <sjryan2 at gmail.com>
>> Subject: Re: [Diabetes-talk] Different Diet
>>
>> Hi Dave,
>>
>> As a retired dietitian, I hate any diet that says "no no no no no!"
>> That's one that will be out the door before you know it! If it
>> doesn't fit your lifestyle, it won't work, and it's not necessary. If
>> you might like some of the recipes, try them, and add them to your
>> regular menu. Or you could try out the diet by having one day a week
>> be vegetarian (not necessarily vegan).
>> But really, leaving out whole food groups is unnecessary and
>> unsatisfying, if you ask me. Keep meat portions relatively small, eat
>> your fruits and veggies, add a little grain and/or potato, and be
>> happy! It's best not to do things that are wildly different than your
>> normal. Especially when your diabetes is obviously well-controlled.
>>
>> Sandi
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Diabetes-Talk [mailto:diabetes-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>> Behalf Of David Andrews via Diabetes-Talk
>> Sent: Saturday, October 22, 2016 1:31 PM
>> To: diabetes-talk at nfbnet.org
>> Cc: David Andrews
>> Subject: [Diabetes-talk] Different Diet
>>
>> I have a question -- curious to see what people think ... at the risk
>> of starting a firestorm.
>>
>> First, let me say, I have very mild type 2 diabetes, A1C of 6.6.
>>
>> I just read a book by Dr. Neil Barnard, in which he promotes a low
>> fat diet as a way to combat type 2 diabetes. He says basically,
>> vegan, no red meat, no poultry, no fish, no dairy, no animal fats, and no
eggs.
>> I can see how it might work, but would hate giving up my meat!
>>
>> Dave
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
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>> om
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>> laurel
>> creekmusic.com
>>
>>
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