[Faith-talk] non-christians on this list
Kirt Manwaring
kirt.crazydude at gmail.com
Mon May 2 02:58:49 UTC 2011
Joshua,
This video will explain it a lot better than I could.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TJNU2xx83nw
On 4/30/11, Joshua Lester <jlester8462 at students.pccua.edu> wrote:
> Kirt, I wasn't offended at all.
> There are some good things about Islam, but what about Sura 4:7?
> "If thy wife displeaseth thee, tie her to thy couch, and beat her."
> That's a passage in the Koran.
> Blessings, Joshua
>
> On 4/30/11, Kirt Manwaring <kirt.crazydude at gmail.com> wrote:
>> Joshua,
>> I feel like I should appologize- that last message was personally
>> insulting and I regret sending it. But please understand, if I could
>> send it again, the only part I'd remove would be the last sentence.
>> Islam is, at the core, a beautiful religion which is so similar to
>> Christianity. I know this because I know practicing Christians and
>> Muslims...it's a religion which I believe is inspired, at least in
>> part, by God. And it does make me angry when people who don't
>> understand it belittle something sacred-imagine how you'd feel when
>> people say Jesus is evil and Christianity is just a way to oppress and
>> control people. Of course it's not true- but most people who say that
>> don't know any better. Islam is a noble and good religion at its
>> core- and it makes me mad when noble and good things are mocked and
>> belittled, however ignorantly or well-intentioned. But I am sorry for
>> making this personal with my last message- on that front, I ask your
>> forgiveness.
>> God bless,
>> Kirt
>>
>> On 4/30/11, Kirt Manwaring <kirt.crazydude at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Joshua,
>>> They are told, as Christians are, to kill in self-defense. I'd
>>> suggest you try and understand this from the prospective of the
>>> Muslims before you make blanket statements like "muslims are
>>> instructed to kill," and "Christians were never instructed to do any
>>> of these things." Exodus says point-blank that you shouldn't suffer a
>>> witch to live---bingo! Let's go hang lots of supposed witches because
>>> the Bible says we can. Leviticus says it's ok to own slaves, even
>>> going into great detail as to how they should be treated-voila! God's
>>> on the side of the slave owners.
>>> Don't you see what I'm saying? Everything I just wrote probably
>>> sounds rediculous to you-as well it should. That's how the vast
>>> majority of Muslims feel when people say the Qu'ran gives license to
>>> kill or, god forbid, justifies terrorism! Think, here.
>>>
>>> On 4/30/11, Joshua Lester <jlester8462 at students.pccua.edu> wrote:
>>>> Muslems are instructed to do the same things.
>>>> The Christians were never instructed to do them.
>>>> Christians were never told to kill, Muslems are.
>>>> Blessings, Joshua
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On 4/30/11, Kirt Manwaring <kirt.crazydude at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> Joshua,
>>>>> What about the Salem witch trials? Those were Protestants...killing
>>>>> innocent people in the name of Christ. I know you'll say people who
>>>>> do that aren't real Christians- I agree with you! But the Muslims who
>>>>> are Terrorists aren't real Muslims either-the same standard applies.
>>>>>
>>>>> On 4/30/11, Kirt Manwaring <kirt.crazydude at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>> Joshua,
>>>>>> Exactly! The Muslims that blow themselves up and kill innocent
>>>>>> people aren't real Muslims, either. That's my point!
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Blessings,
>>>>>> Kirt
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On 4/29/11, Joshua Lester <jlester8462 at students.pccua.edu> wrote:
>>>>>>> The ones that threatened pain, or death, were not true Christians.
>>>>>>> The Nazis, were not real Christians, either.
>>>>>>> You know that.
>>>>>>> Blessings, Joshua
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 4/30/11, Kirt Manwaring <kirt.crazydude at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>> Joshua, Barbara and all,
>>>>>>>> Was it love that forced Muslims and Jews to convert to
>>>>>>>> Christianity,
>>>>>>>> on pain of death, in the middle ages? Was it Christlike love that
>>>>>>>> sent heratics and apostates to their executions, simply for
>>>>>>>> disagreeing with the church? Was it christlike love that sent
>>>>>>>> millions of Jews to the gas chambers? Was it Christlike love that
>>>>>>>> supressed scientific knowledge for centuries, merely for
>>>>>>>> contradicting
>>>>>>>> church dogma? Was it Christlike love that pitted Christian against
>>>>>>>> Christian, Catholic against Protestant, Catholic and Protestant
>>>>>>>> against Anabaptist, and all these against the rest of the world in
>>>>>>>> bloody wanton war? Wait...none of that ever happened, Christians
>>>>>>>> never tried to impose our religion by force...because we're more
>>>>>>>> loving!
>>>>>>>> Please understand I'm being so vehement because I have Muslim
>>>>>>>> friends and I know, firsthand, it is not a religion of oppression
>>>>>>>> any
>>>>>>>> more than Christianity is. The Quran has verses which say go to war
>>>>>>>> against the infidels who attack you first...the Old Testament has
>>>>>>>> similar verses of scripture. Just as most Christians do not impose,
>>>>>>>> on pain of death, their faith on anyone else...Most Muslims live by
>>>>>>>> their scriptures and live as good neighbors and peacable citizens.
>>>>>>>> If
>>>>>>>> Islam is a religion of oppression, Christianity oppresses just as
>>>>>>>> much. It is a small minority of both religions, particularly in
>>>>>>>> moddern times, that seeks to impose their faith on others by force
>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>> arms. Both Christianity and Islam have had their share of saints
>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>> sinners- each religion has given birth to many good people and a few
>>>>>>>> evil ones...but please, for the love, don't pin labels on whole
>>>>>>>> religions just because a few verses of scripture _could_ be twisted
>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>> support evil. Because, if that were true, Christianity would be
>>>>>>>> just
>>>>>>>> as evil as Islam...and I can give you the Bible verses to back that
>>>>>>>> up
>>>>>>>> if you want.
>>>>>>>> God bless,
>>>>>>>> Kirt
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On 4/29/11, Barbara Hammel <poetlori8 at msn.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> Therefore, that makes it a religion of oppression.
>>>>>>>>> Barbara
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Through the sunny fields of yesterday
>>>>>>>>> Echo voices of children now grown,
>>>>>>>>> Their golden peals of laughter
>>>>>>>>> Ring upon the ivied stone.
>>>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>>>> From: Jorge Paez
>>>>>>>>> Sent: Friday, April 29, 2011 11:25 PM
>>>>>>>>> To: Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion
>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] non-christians on this list
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Yes.
>>>>>>>>> but that verse is folloed by:
>>>>>>>>> "but if they surrender, then do not strike."
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On Apr 29, 2011, at 11:45 PM, Barbara Hammel wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> As I understand it, one glaring difference--among many--between
>>>>>>>>>> Muslim
>>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Christian is that you have the choice to accept Christ. You are
>>>>>>>>>> not
>>>>>>>>>> forced to follow the strict practices. Another difference is that
>>>>>>>>>> Muslims
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> are told to kill the infidels. In the old Testament, God did tell
>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>> Israelites to kill all the people in a place. But when Jesus
>>>>>>>>>> came,
>>>>>>>>>> He
>>>>>>>>>> told us to love. We do not need to stone adulterers as Deuteronomy
>>>>>>>>>> or
>>>>>>>>>> Leviticus says. The law was given to us to see that we sin. "All
>>>>>>>>>> have
>>>>>>>>>> sinned and fall short of the glory of God." When Jesus came, He
>>>>>>>>>> asked
>>>>>>>>>> who
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> would cast the first stone. Christians are taught to love the
>>>>>>>>>> sinner
>>>>>>>>>> but
>>>>>>>>>> hate the sin. If a Christian turns to a different faith, we don't
>>>>>>>>>> disclaim them as Muslims--and others--do.
>>>>>>>>>> Barbara
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Through the sunny fields of yesterday
>>>>>>>>>> Echo voices of children now grown,
>>>>>>>>>> Their golden peals of laughter
>>>>>>>>>> Ring upon the ivied stone.
>>>>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- From: Jorge Paez
>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Friday, April 29, 2011 6:38 PM
>>>>>>>>>> To: Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion
>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] non-christians on this list
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> We are compelled by Jesus to share the gospel just as the Muslims
>>>>>>>>>> have
>>>>>>>>>> been instructed to spread the Quran.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> It is not a matter of who's right,
>>>>>>>>>> but who's message is right for whom.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On Apr 29, 2011, at 1:12 AM, Jeanette wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> belonging to a church or not belonging has nothing to do with
>>>>>>>>>>> being
>>>>>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>>>>>> Christian as i understand it. it is the personal relationship we
>>>>>>>>>>> have
>>>>>>>>>>> with Christ that saves us. being a good person or not being a
>>>>>>>>>>> good
>>>>>>>>>>> person has nothing to do with being a Christian either as i
>>>>>>>>>>> understand
>>>>>>>>>>> it, i know a lot of folks who do not believe in any supreme being
>>>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>>> are
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> some of the nicest folks i know, but they do not believe in
>>>>>>>>>>> Christ
>>>>>>>>>>> or
>>>>>>>>>>> God
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> or anything and if Christ is the only way to heaven then it would
>>>>>>>>>>> be
>>>>>>>>>>> hard
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> to assume they would go to heaven, like i said, if we don't have
>>>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>>> accept Christ as our Lord and Savior here on earth, why bother,
>>>>>>>>>>> why
>>>>>>>>>>> not
>>>>>>>>>>> do as we please and then worry about salvation later? there would
>>>>>>>>>>> be
>>>>>>>>>>> no
>>>>>>>>>>> need to share the gospel if we didn't ahve to accept christ
>>>>>>>>>>> here.
>>>>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "qubit" <lauraeaves at yahoo.com>
>>>>>>>>>>> To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion"
>>>>>>>>>>> <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Thursday, April 28, 2011 6:04 PM
>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] non-christians on this list
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> I have one other comment -- hope I make sense...
>>>>>>>>>>>> If someone lives a charitable, honest life, but does not join a
>>>>>>>>>>>> Christian
>>>>>>>>>>>> church perhaps because of personal upbringing, or even because
>>>>>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>>>>>>> bad
>>>>>>>>>>>> example from a supposed Christian, then at some point in his
>>>>>>>>>>>> life
>>>>>>>>>>>> or
>>>>>>>>>>>> after
>>>>>>>>>>>> death be is exposed to the truth about Christ's teachings, I
>>>>>>>>>>>> believe
>>>>>>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>>>>>> person would be likely to embrace it.
>>>>>>>>>>>> In addition, I wonder if someone who does not live a model life
>>>>>>>>>>>> might
>>>>>>>>>>>> have
>>>>>>>>>>>> to go through some real difficulties to learn the hard way that
>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>> only
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> way
>>>>>>>>>>>> is through Christ.
>>>>>>>>>>>> But the thing I have to believe is that whatever the judgement
>>>>>>>>>>>> is
>>>>>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>>>>>> an
>>>>>>>>>>>> individual, Jesus would make that decision in love, and He is
>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>> only
>>>>>>>>>>>> one
>>>>>>>>>>>> who can judge.
>>>>>>>>>>>> In fact, I think whatever example you come up with of a "type of
>>>>>>>>>>>> person"
>>>>>>>>>>>> that would be judged one way or another, someone might come
>>>>>>>>>>>> along
>>>>>>>>>>>> who
>>>>>>>>>>>> blows
>>>>>>>>>>>> your stereotype out of the water... (Hmm -- no double meaning is
>>>>>>>>>>>> intended in
>>>>>>>>>>>> my choice of terms...)
>>>>>>>>>>>> One thing that I wonder about, in the scriptures it says the
>>>>>>>>>>>> first
>>>>>>>>>>>> commandment is to love God with all might, mind and strength,
>>>>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>> second
>>>>>>>>>>>> to love neighbor as self. The thought crossed my mind that that
>>>>>>>>>>>> first
>>>>>>>>>>>> commandment might be difficult, as when great calamities happen,
>>>>>>>>>>>> such
>>>>>>>>>>>> as
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>> current unbelievable tornados. Some people blame God for
>>>>>>>>>>>> everything
>>>>>>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>>>>>> goes wrong.
>>>>>>>>>>>> I think using the opportunity to pray rather than blame can
>>>>>>>>>>>> help.
>>>>>>>>>>>> Anyway, I was just thinking about it.
>>>>>>>>>>>> --le
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jeanette"
>>>>>>>>>>>> <nettiecosp at yahoo.com>
>>>>>>>>>>>> To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion"
>>>>>>>>>>>> <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Thursday, April 28, 2011 5:57 PM
>>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] non-christians on this list
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> the folks who lived before Christ believed in god, they looked
>>>>>>>>>>>> forward
>>>>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>>>> Christ the Messiah, God reveals himself to those He chooses to
>>>>>>>>>>>> reveal
>>>>>>>>>>>> himself to. but according to the bible Jesus is the only way,
>>>>>>>>>>>> this
>>>>>>>>>>>> is
>>>>>>>>>>>> my
>>>>>>>>>>>> personal belief i think by telling people if they are good they
>>>>>>>>>>>> will
>>>>>>>>>>>> go
>>>>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>>>> heaven you are saying there is no need for the sacrafice Christ
>>>>>>>>>>>> made
>>>>>>>>>>>> on
>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>> cross. if being good is all it takes then you are saying there
>>>>>>>>>>>> is
>>>>>>>>>>>> no
>>>>>>>>>>>> need
>>>>>>>>>>>> for hell either.
>>>>>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jorge Paez"
>>>>>>>>>>>> <computertechjorgepaez at gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>>>>> To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion"
>>>>>>>>>>>> <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Thursday, April 28, 2011 3:28 PM
>>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] non-christians on this list
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> I say Gandi is in heaven.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Like I said earlier, anyone who does good, and follows God's
>>>>>>>>>>>>> commandments
>>>>>>>>>>>>> though they don't know it obviously, is going to heaven.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Because, if you think of it,
>>>>>>>>>>>>> would all those who believed in God before Christ go to hell
>>>>>>>>>>>>> because
>>>>>>>>>>>>> they
>>>>>>>>>>>>> did not know him?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> It is now so much knowing him, though for us Christians we
>>>>>>>>>>>>> must,
>>>>>>>>>>>>> but
>>>>>>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>>>>>> those who have no concept of Christ, to follow God's
>>>>>>>>>>>>> commandments.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> It is written in the Second Vatican, "for those who don't know
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Christ,
>>>>>>>>>>>>> then God shall reveal on to them in ways that only He knows."
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> This is perhaps suggesting that despite everything that is said
>>>>>>>>>>>>> on
>>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>>> outside, even athiests have been shown some light?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Some compulsion to do good, dispite their outwards denial of
>>>>>>>>>>>>> God?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Apr 28, 2011, at 4:59 PM, Kirt Manwaring wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I believe you absolutely need Jesus- but I have to reconcile
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> belief with the fact that most people throughout history
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> either
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> never
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> heard of Christ, or had no real idea who he was. Will someone
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> like
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Gandhi, who did an incredible amount of good in this life, go
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> hell
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> simply because he didn't accept Jesus as savior while he was
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> here?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 4/28/11, Jeanette <nettiecosp at yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> any literature other than the bible is not God inspired
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> there
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> fore
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> not
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> reliable. just my opinion, not criticizing anyone, just what
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> i
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> believe,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> if
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> you do not need Jesus to go to Heaven then how to you
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> explain
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> need
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Him to sacrafice His life for our sins?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> From: "Jorge Paez" <computertechjorgepaez at gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion"
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Thursday, April 28, 2011 1:14 PM
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] non-christians on this list
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Kirt:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I agree with your view,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> my difference being that although all are children of God,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> only those who do good shall be saved, weather they have a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> religion
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> or
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> not.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> And, quick FYI, apparently I was just reading that this
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> theory
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> has
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> been
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> written by
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Pope Benedict the 16th, though I can't remember his name
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> prior
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> this.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> This was also included in the Second Vatican of the Catholic
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> church,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and if anyone's interested in research on this topic by the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> way,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I've found Bookshare to be a surprisingly reliable source.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Jorge
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Apr 28, 2011, at 2:45 PM, Kirt Manwaring wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Jorge,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> My church teaches that all humans are children of God.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Christians,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Jews, Muslims, Buddhists, Hindus, Bahais, Wiccans,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Atheists,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Satanists, murderers, rapists, everyone is literally a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> spirit
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> child
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> god.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Also, you might be interested in the idea of "anonimous
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> christianity." I'm not going to do it justice, but it was
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> an
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> idea
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> advanced by a certain catholic theologian (I can't recall
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> name)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that basically all people living christlike lives have
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> access
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Christ's grace, though they don't know it yet. As a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Mormon,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> central
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> part of my faith is that, some day, either in this life or
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> next,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> all people will have the chance to hear the gospel of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Christ.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Were
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> this not true, God would not be a fair and just God
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> because,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> throughout the ages, there have been billions of people who
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> literally
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> never even heard of Jesus Christ. I can't believe in a God
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> who
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> would
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> damn someone merely because they were never exposed to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Christ
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> in
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> mortal life, or because they chose to live by their
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> original
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> faith
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> instead, without really understanding what Christ offers.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> So,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> believe that heaven will be full of Mormons and Catholics
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Muslims
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and HIndus and all manner of religions...at least, full of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> people
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> who
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> believed all manner of religions while living here on
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> earth,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> they
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> will
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> all have accepted Christ as savior and lived his
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> commandments
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> best of their abilities before being saved, though. I'm
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> just
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> rambling...but basically I believe that, just because
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> someone
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> dies
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> without faith in Christ, I don't believe they are
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ultimately
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> condemned
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to hell unless they reject Christ later.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Just my thoughts. I'd welcome discussion or civilized
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> debate.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Best,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Kirt
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 4/28/11, Jorge Paez <computertechjorgepaez at gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Hello Kirt:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I agree with you completely.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> In fact, if you look at the ancient documents and text,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> you will see that Christians started out as one group.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Then for various reasons,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> divided,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> so in a way, we are both following the original tradition.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> But,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that brings me to my point.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> What do we, as Christians, consider acceptable behavior
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> "children
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> God?"
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I understand that our Christianity stems from our belief
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> in
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Jesus
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Christ.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> But then how do we define "children of God?"
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Would we consider Muslims as "children of God", despite
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> their
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> views
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> on
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Jesus Christ being different then ours?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Or do we also define "Children Of God" how we define
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> "Christian?"
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Just food for thought.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Jorge
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Apr 28, 2011, at 1:48 PM, Kirt Manwaring wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Dear list,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I feel like I need to respond to this thread. Please
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> understand
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I'm
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> not trying to spark controversy, I don't intend to debate
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> anyone
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> here,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and I'm not trying to impose my own faith on anyone.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> But,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> with
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> disclaimer out of the way, I want to answer one point
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> was
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> made
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> earlier on this thread.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> John, you said some of your LDS (Mormon) friends do not
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> identify
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> themselves as Christian. I think I understand why,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> although
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> whole-heartedly proclaim myself a Christian. It
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ultimately
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> boils
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> down
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to your definition of a Christian. If the only
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Christians
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> are
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> those
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> who worship the Trinity as God, and confess the Nycene
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> creed,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> then I
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> suppose we Mormons aren't Christians. But, by that
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> definition,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> you're
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> excluding some of the most Christian people among us.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Consider
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Joshua
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Lester, a oneness pentecostal who does not believe in the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Trinity.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Would anyone here, on this list, seriously claim he isn't
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Christian?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> His understanding of God as one person is as different
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> from
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> traditional Trinity as my understanding of God as three
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> separate,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> distinctive personages who are one in purpose rather than
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> substance.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Yet I have seen his denomination attacked and criticized
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> in
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> world
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for being "unChristian", just as mine has been.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> So this brings me to my next point. If Christians aren't
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> exclusively
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Trinitarians, what defines a Christian? To me, it's
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> obvious.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Anyone
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> who accepts Christ as lord and savior and relies
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> exclusively
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> upon
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> him
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> as the only means of salvation is a Christian. For us as
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Mormons
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Jesus is not just a good moral guide for an excelent
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> life.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> He
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> isn't
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> just an inspired teacher or prophet- he is a member of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> godhead,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> our redemer and, ultimately, the only true savior for
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> humankind.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Without Christ we are doomed and lost, we need his
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> atoning
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> sacrifice
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> in our lives both to purify us now and cleanse us for
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> eternity.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> In
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> my
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> book, if you agree with that, you're a Christian. So
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> despite
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> numerous and significant theological differences between
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Catholics
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Protestants and Mormons and Oneness Pentecostals and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Orthadox
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Christians, we all have that common ground. Are Mormons
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Christian?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Are Oneness pentecostals Christian? I answer,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> emphatically,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> "yes!"
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Warmest regards,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Kirt
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 4/22/11, John J. Boyer <john at godtouches.org> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Kirt,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> This happens sometimes, and I've known people to be
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> really
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> embarrassed
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> at some of the things they said. However, in this case
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> there
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> no
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> need
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for embarrassment. i felt that the information I gave in
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> my
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> reply
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> would
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> be good for the whole list.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Blessed Easter,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> John
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Fri, Apr 22, 2011 at 01:44:57PM -0600, Kirt Manwaring
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> o> Woops...I sent a message thinking it would go just to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> John,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> but
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> it
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> went to the whole list. My sincere appologies.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 4/22/11, Jorge Paez
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <computertechjorgepaez at gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Kirt:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I do believe you are right in the divisions.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I myself am a Catholic, but have taken the time to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> study
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 2
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> other
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> major
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> religions of the world (Judaism and Islam), and we're
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> currently
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> studying
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> reformation in school.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> According to my understanding, the majesterium
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> mandated
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> at
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> time
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> all bibles bee in Latin, therefore making it
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> impossible
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> "common
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> people" to read,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> while the protestants (please correct me if I'm wrong)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> were
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> first
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> start reading the bible in common languages, believing
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> bible
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> should
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> be read and understood by each and every believer.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Am I correct?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Jorge
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Apr 22, 2011, at 3:28 PM, Kirt Manwaring wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> John,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I never replied to your message earlier. Thanks for
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> your
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> answers
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> about the Majesterium and Tradition. So, if I'm
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> understanding
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> right,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> it is your belief that the majesterium/teaching arm
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Roman
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Catholic church is simply clarifying the revelation
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> already
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> given.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> In
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> other words, Jesus was and the Bible was the complete
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Revelation
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> God. If I'm understanding right, the biggest
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> disagreement
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> between
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Catholics and Protestants is a matter of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> interpretation
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Bible.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> For you, am I right in saying the interpretation
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> provided
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> by
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> tradition/majesterium is authoritativ and the only
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> "correct"
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> way
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> look at scripture, while in Protestant Christianity
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> it
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> more
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> open
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the reader's own interpretation? I know that's a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> huge
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> generalization,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> but would you say I'm right there?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Anyways...I'm also curious about another statement
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> you
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> made.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> You
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> said something to the effect of believing Joseph
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Smith's
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> vissions
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> were
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> genuine, but not valid. So...for you, as a Catholic,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> do
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> you
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> think
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> he
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> was misguided? Partially inspired but ultimately
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> mistaken
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> in
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> taking
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> it too far? Inspired by the devil? I won't get
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> offended,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> want
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> your
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> honest opinion and I'm not going to take it
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> personally.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> And, religious dialogue is definitely important...I'd
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> say
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> escential.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I think there's much to learn from all religions, and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> personally
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I'm
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> convinced God has inspired them all. That doesn't
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> mean
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> believe
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> with
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> everything every faith claims, but I see the hand of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> God
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> throughout
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the religious world.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I have one other question for you. Are you familiar
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> with
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> idea
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of anonimous Christianity? If so, what are your
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> thoughts
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> on
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> it?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> God bless,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Kirt
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 4/21/11, John J. Boyer <john at godtouches.org>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I'm definitely Christian, but I'm all for
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> interrelitious
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> dialog.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> In
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> fact, I think that is part of my particular work of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> evangelization.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> If
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> you go to my website, http://www.godtouches.org you
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> will
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> see
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> it's
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> motto is "peace, love, service". I think that my
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> work
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> evangelization
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is to spread these attitudes of Christ even in the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> secular
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> world.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> John
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Thu, Apr 21, 2011 at 09:25:24PM -0600, Kirt
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Manwaring
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Dear list,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I very much enjoy all the devotionals and prayer
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> requests
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> discussions on here. I'm pretty sure it's one of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> few
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> worthwhile
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> distractions in life. But I am curious, and I
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> definitely
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> don't
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> mean
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to offend, if there are any non-christian regular
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> readers
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> this
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> mailinglist? I don't mean to procelyte, and I
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> don't
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> want
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> this
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> thread
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to turn into an overblown theological debate, but
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I'm
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> very
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> interested
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> in talking with and learning from people from other
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> faiths.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> If
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that's
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> you, and you wouldn't mind talking, would you
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> please
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> email
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> me
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> off-list? I won't procelyte- I won't try to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> baptize
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> you
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> or
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> anything.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I just want a friendly dialogue.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> God bless,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Kirt
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> your
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> account
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> info
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/john%40godtouches.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> John J. Boyer, Executive Director
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> GodTouches Digital Ministry, Inc.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.godtouches.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Madison, Wisconsin, USA
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Peace, Love, Service
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> account
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> info
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> account
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> info
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/computertechjorgepaez%40gmail.com
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> account
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> info
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> account
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> info
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/john%40godtouches.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> John J. Boyer, Executive Director
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> GodTouches Digital Ministry, Inc.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.godtouches.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Madison, Wisconsin, USA
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Peace, Love, Service
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> account
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> info
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> account
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> info
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/computertechjorgepaez%40gmail.com
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> account
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> info
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> account
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> info
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/computertechjorgepaez%40gmail.com
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> info
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/nettiecosp%40yahoo.com
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> info
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> info
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/computertechjorgepaez%40gmail.com
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account
>>>>>>>>>>>>> info
>>>>>>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/nettiecosp%40yahoo.com
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account
>>>>>>>>>>>> info
>>>>>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk:
>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/lauraeaves%40yahoo.com
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account
>>>>>>>>>>>> info
>>>>>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk:
>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/nettiecosp%40yahoo.com
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>>>>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk:
>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/computertechjorgepaez%40gmail.com
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>>>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk:
>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/poetlori8%40msn.com
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>>>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk:
>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/computertechjorgepaez%40gmail.com
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk:
>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/poetlori8%40msn.com
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk:
>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>>>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>> Faith-talk:
>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40students.pccua.edu
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>>>> Faith-talk:
>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>> Faith-talk:
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40students.pccua.edu
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>> Faith-talk:
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com
>>>>
>>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Faith-talk mailing list
>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> Faith-talk:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40students.pccua.edu
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
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