[humanser] INTERVIEWING

MARY CHAPPELL MTC5 at COX.NET
Sat Oct 26 04:06:34 UTC 2013 

Doug,
This is so helpful. My hospital IT department asked me what was necessary
and I ultimately had to refer to the professionals for consultation but, if
I had been more prepared to speak to the need in their language. When you
can talk the talk the IT department takes the request more seriously and
often it inspires greater pro-activity. Thanks.
 Mary

-----Original Message-----
From: humanser [mailto:humanser-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Doug Lee
Sent: Wednesday, October 23, 2013 10:11 AM
To: Human Services Mailing List
Subject: Re: [humanser] INTERVIEWING

I present the following as more of an archivable (and rather long) message
more than as something to process entirely right away. :-)

A technical response to one line in JD's message, just to avoid any
confusion...

JD said, "Those folks who write scripts for Window-Eyes or JAWS can make any
system work." My response as a scripter, mostly of JAWS but also a couple
times of Window-Eyes and even NVDA, follows. I will present here five
situations that I consider risky for making that claim, then some questions
that might be wise to ask or otherwise check out, though probably after, not
before or during, an interview.
Let me be very clear on that: It is, even legally, more the prospective
employer's job to assure accessibility to their software in many cases, not
yours. So don't break your chances with too much worry about what follows
before you have a foot in the door. All that said, here goes:


Even as scripters, we are dependent on what information is made available to
us by the application. There are a few types of applications that are not
practical to script without modifications to the application itself. Off the
top of my head, the following situations immediately make me start asking
questions before I announce that I can fix things. For this and other
reasons, my approach (and formally that of my company, SSB BART Group's
approach) is often to try first to work with application developers to
improve the native accessibility of the app(s) before scripting. That is of
course not always possible. In any case, the situation list:

1. A Java environment requiring the Java Access Bridge. I make sure the JAB,
as we sometimes call it, provides enough information for me to work with. Of
particular interest here are tables and HTML edit boxes. Tables can be
tricky but sometimes can be scripted quite well.
HTML edit controls have been known to cause some JAWS versions to crash
frequently. Java apps are scriptable in most cases I've seen though.

2. Similarly, Flash and Silverlight situations. Here I must first determine
whether *any* information is accessible. Developers must put Flash content
in a window and not use transparent or opaque display modes. Silverlight
developers must avoid using windowless mode. If these tests fail, the
application must change before scripting is possible. Even after this is
addressed, some accessibility must be included by the application
developers, such as control types and labels (names) and a usable tab order,
or sequence of controls you visit while pressing the Tab key.

3. So-called thin-client setups, such as with Citrix, where the actual
application runs on a central server and all you have on your PC is screen
images and keyboard input. This situation requires JAWS or Window-Eyes to
run both on the server and on your PC, or it is not possible to work with.
Companies vary on how willing they are to load a screen reader on a central
server. In cases like this, I ask if there is a thick client, or local
client, that provides the same functionality even if not via
identical-looking screens.

4. QT-based applications. QT is a framework favored by some developers for
its support of a single code base across several operating system platforms.
A developer using QT can write one batch of code and run it on Windows,
MacOS, and Linux without expending massive efforts to adjust it for each of
those platforms. Unfortunately, the accessibility support for QT varies
widely among versions and, in my experience, is not nearly what JAWS and
Window-Eyes natively (without
scripting) expect from an application. These situations can often be
scripted, but edit controls may not provide nearly the feedback you'd expect
even with scripting, and I find application crashes sadly common when a
Windows screen reader is being used.

5. Any application for which the JAWS cursor (or Window-Eyes equivalent
review facility) sees no text or just the window title.
This applies to many if not all QT apps but can also apply elsewhere.
Such an application must provide some fform of accessibility to be
reasonably scriptable, so I test for such support as soon as possible when I
see something like this. If no such support is available, the best I could
do would be to provide solutions such as Hot Spot Clicker configurations
that name screen regions and allow you to click on them to work with the
application. This does not let you read results though, and that has been
(for me, at least so far) reason enough to consider HSC-type solutions
insufficient to warrant implementation effort at job sites. HSC is powerful
enough, though, that it surely will be of use in some cases like this.

Because of the above, the following questions, to be asked or tested for at
some point but probably not before or during the interview, could be wise:

1. Do any of the applications use a Java VM, Flash, or Silverlight?

2. Are any of the applications thin clients?

3. Does the JAWS cursor see text besides window titles, or are there apps
where this is not the case?

4. If problems appear in response to those questions, is there a possibility
of opening a line of communication between JAWS/Window-Eyes scripters and
application developers? (This can require support tickets to be set up,
conference calls to be planned,
etc.)

Finally, there is one frequent occurrence I've seen that is not quite
specifically addressed above: E-Learning situations where you are expected
to go through a sequence of online training screens that are simulations of,
rather than actual instances of, the applications being taught. Simulations
generally do not work with screen readers because they do not provide the
appropriate information for the screen reader to speak. For example, even if
a web-based applications's screens are very easy to use with JAWS, a
simulation of them using clickable screen-sized graphic images is not usable
that way. If you at some point hear that there is online training expected
of you, find out if it can be checked for this sort of thing, or if
alternatives such as online Word or PDF documents or informational web sites
exist.. Of course, for training even more than for actual application work,
a live reader could be enough to handle absolutely any such problem.


In conclusion, I urge anyone who actually read this far without either
falling asleep or glazing over... to remember not to scare or confuse
prospective employers with a lot of technical concerns right off the bat.
Your first priority as an interviewee is to present yourself as a solution,
not a problem. I give you all the above information so you can know a bit
more of what to look out for before you make a commitment to an employer
about what you can do without help. That commitment, of course, would come
more at the job offer stage, which is a ways past the interview most of the
time.

Best of luck to all, in current and future jobs. For my part, I consider a
lot of my job the art of sifting through all the above information and
making your jobs possible with minimal employer-side effort. But you all
probably knew that already. :-)

On Wed, Oct 23, 2013 at 09:08:14AM -0400, JD Townsend wrote:

Hello Sandy:

In an interview I never go into details of accomadations that I may or may
not require.  I may inform that that I have software that makes their PCs
available to me in braille or speech, but I never go into details about
blind services assistance or other concerns.  The accomadations are mine to
make and to take responsibility for and, if I give one message about
blindness, it is that I will require little or nothing from them, a message
of my independence.

I


As for electronic records, mine are available to me one way or another.
Those folks who write scripts for Window-Eyes or JAWS can make any system
work.


-----Original Message-----


JD
From: Sandy
Sent: Wednesday, October 23, 2013 1:29 AM
To: 'Human Services Mailing List'
Subject: Re: [humanser] INTERVIEWING

JD,

This message from you is being kept in a folder I call "work."  It is
certainly true that our being therapists is dependent on more important
things than how little, or how much we see.  You mention how some people
prefer to talk with a clinician who can't see them, and I heard just that
comment from a fairly new supervisor at the mental health agency I am
temporarily not working at while we clear up how accommodations will be
employed due to the new electronic health records.  If I work at another
agency, most likely the electronic records will be problematic.  At an
interview, do I briefly speak of how the paperwork gets done despite the
records, handwritten files, etc.? Do I simply state that I am able to do the
paperwork, and get in to accommodations when I am hired?


Sandy Burgess, LCSW

--------------------------------------------------
From: "JD Townsend" <43210 at Bellsouth.net>
Sent: Wednesday, October 16, 2013 10:29 PM
To: "'Human Services Mailing List'" <humanser at nfbnet.org>
Subject: [humanser] INTERVIEWING

>
>
>how would you handle it if you're trying to talk about your skills as a 
>social worker and the employer keeps referring back to the blindness?
>Alyssa,
>
>I might try to be casual, but ask:
>
>
>???You seem fascinated by blindness.  I can assure you that I can and 
>will be timely with the paperwork, excellent with my clients and an 
>involved team member, my disability has nothing to do with that, but 
>I???d be happy
>
>to tell you how I shop, dress and cross-country ski if that???ll get me 
>the job?
>
>
>???If your blindness questions  center around wondering if I can keep 
>up, if you wonder how I???ll accomplish my daily tasks, trust me, 
>I???ll show you my productivity, my writing talent, and my clinical 
>successes.???
>
>???It???s funny, but a blind psychotherapist I know asks how the light 
>dependent do all of that with ink on paper.  He???s the most productive 
>worker at his job and has a great reputation as a clinician.???
>
>
>???You have lots of questions for me, now let me ask you about the 
>agency and how you see me in this position.???
>
>???I have found that many clients feel more comfortable with a 
>therapist who is blind and they address their core issues more readily, 
>feeling less judged.???
>
>???I have found that many of the clients you have described feel 
>disabled by their mental illnesses and feel more comfortable discussing 
>their issues with a therapist who is also disabled.???
>
>???You may be concerned that you would not be able to do this job if 
>you lost your sight.  Let me assure you, should that happen, with good 
>rehabilitation and a positive attitude you would.  I have had that 
>rehabilitation and I have that attitude now.???
>
>
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>sn.com
>

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JD Townsend LCSW
Helping the light dependent to see.
Daytona Beach, Earth, Sol System


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-- 
Doug Lee                 dgl at dlee.org                http://www.dlee.org
SSB BART Group           doug.lee at ssbbartgroup.com
http://www.ssbbartgroup.com
Don't be afraid your life will end; be afraid that itwill never begin.
-- Grace Hansen

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