[humanser] Recording for note taking

Wed May 28 20:21:46 UTC 2014

Hello Mary and all,

Perhaps I am fixating on a minor issue, but I think that if it were me
in this situation, I'd want to be armed with a paper trail before I
proceeded further.  Was there any agreement in writing that said you
could record meetings?  Or, was there any thing written that specified
any accomodations you might receive in the workplace?  Is there a
record that past meetings were recorded without complaint or incident
in the past?  Even if you said in recordings, "Okay, we're rolling
now," or something, and no one made an issue of it, that would be
sufficient evidence.  They say there was never an agreement which
stated you could use recording as an accommodation, but if you've been
using it for as long as you have without incident, they have no reason
to try to change the rules of the game now.

I am still a student, but I know enough about professional conduct
that things of this nature between employers and employees should be
transparent.  By not allowing you to record, they're doing the same
thing as refusing a sighted employee the chance to take notes with a
pencil and paper.  That seems extremely weird to me, as it does for
others.

Good luck; I hope you can gather a paper trail to help you assert your
right to use recordings for a reasonable accommodation.

On 5/27/14, Merry Schoch via humanser <humanser at nfbnet.org> wrote:
> Hello Mary,
>
> I believe that you should trust your instincts on this one.  You are the
> one
> that has worked with these individuals for so many years and know how they
> have and are currently operating.  In our profession, we tell our clients
> to
> trust their instincts in regards to keeping them safe; I believe you are
> right on target.
>
> Please keep us updated,
> Merry
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: humanser [mailto:humanser-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Dr.
> Chappell via humanser
> Sent: Sunday, May 25, 2014 6:14 PM
> To: 'Steve Jacobson'; 'Human Services Division Mailing List'
> Subject: Re: [humanser] Recording for note taking
>
> Steve,
> You bring a relevant consideration to our attention. This situation, not
> unlike so many other situations, is complex. I have considered the varying
> points you set forth and, given my heightened awareness of the arbitrary
> nature of the issue and the associated timing, I am believing  that what
> has
> been, until now, a readily accepted reasonable accommodation is still
> indicated. Forgive me if you believe this to be short-sighted but, I am
> firm
> in this opinion. I welcome feedback from the masses to corroberate or
> refute
> my position.
> Genuinely,
> Mary Tatum Chappell, Psy. D.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: humanser [mailto:humanser-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Steve
> Jacobson via humanser
> Sent: Sunday, May 25, 2014 4:07 PM
> To: Carly Mihalakis via humanser
> Subject: Re: [humanser] Recording for note taking
>
> Sometimes I think it is so tempting to get caught up in the reasonable
> accommodations issues that more practical considerations can be overlooked.
> First, as much as possible, I think we need to have a way of taking notes.
> Certainly a braille device is nice and preferable for many of us, but I
> take
> a lot of notes on a laptop and as has been said, there are ways to do it
> with an iPad or iphone as well.  I have heard of people whispering into a
> stenomask as another possible approach.  In general, recordings simply have
> a different legal status than do notes.  The existence of a recording can
> have implications for the speaker as well in a way that notes do not.  Most
> of the time, the ability to record won't be an issue, but taking notes is
> virtually never an issue, and taking notes allows the adding of additional
> information, reactions, or
> thoughts, that are not part of what is being said.
>
> Since we do not and probably should not know the exact concerns here, we
> can
> only deal in generalities, and it is possible they do not apply here.  One
> has to realize that there are generally two types of meetings.  One type is
> a meeting where information is being presented and distributed where most
> of
> the participants are really there to receive information.  The other kind
> of
> meeting is where all present are involved and the purpose is to arrive at a
> decision or a conclusion.  Personnel meetings are often of the second type
> in my experience.
>
> In this second type of meeting, often areas are explored for the purpose of
> working toward a decision or conclusion, but the areas explored are not
> necessarily significant in and of themselves.  There can be cases where any
> participant may float an idea that they know is not practical but to get a
> sense of what the other participants think, to find the boundaries of
> agreement as it were.  The presence of a recorder in such a meeting can
> impede such exchanges which can be useful.  Notes, by their very nature,
> reflect the reactions of the note-taker and don't constitute proof that
> something was stated as reflected in those notes.
>
> I would think it would make a lot of sense to analyze what the purpose of a
> meeting is and then decide upon the approach to take based upon the
> purpose.
> If there is likely going to be an outcome that must be agreed upon, having
> the agreement so you can feel certain you understand it is going to be a
> necessity, but it may not be necessary to have every word available that
> got
> you to that agreement.  Unless one takes shorthand, a sighted person who
> feels they want to take notes isn't going to have every word.  In addition,
> a recording could inhibit discussion that might actually be to the
> advantage
> of an employee.
>
> It may be worth considering that there might be two separate issues here.
> First, How does one be sure to accurately get information that is
> presented.
> That is generally what is captured in note taking, and getting such
> information in writing before a meeting would be another approach to
> getting
> that information.  The second issue is accountability.  If one does not
> trust the people with whom they are meeting, it might work to ask that
> there
> be minutes of the meeting to which both of you must agree as a compromise
> to
> recording.  If there is truly a concern that something will be said in a
> meeting but later denied, the possibility of including a third uninvolved
> person might be explored.  Obviously, one should have the chance to read
> any
> document before one signs it, but sometimes one is better off having a
> reader read the document that is being signed than depending on an
> accessible version that may not have the final updates.  These things are
> tricky.
>
> I don't know if a recording is always seen under the law as a reasonable
> accommodation as a substitute for taking notes.  Whether it is or not, I
> think it has to be realized that the existence of a recording is more
> complicated than simply whether it is or is not a reasonable accommodation.
> It isn't selling out to look for a solution that meets ones needs while
> allowing others to be more comfortable.  Sometimes, I think we too quickly
> reduce complicated issues to simple ones of reasonable accommodations that
> could even limit our own options.
>
> Best regards,
>
> Steve Jacobson
>
> On Sun, 25 May 2014 04:18:39 -0700, Carly Mihalakis via humanser wrote:
>
>>Good morning, Karen and everyone,
>
>>         As a brain damaged person, that is precisely the manner in
>>which I come to know material covered in class, by Streaming the
>>lectures then, using the lecture, I put the material into my own words
>>and type them upon my home comput.
>>for today, Car
>
>>in which I reveiw material, cisely thae At 11:38 AM 5/24/2014, you wrote:
>>>I did not know you had hand sensitivity issues and could not read back
>>>in braille. However there is an app called M brain which would allow
>>>you to take notes using the braille keyboard used on the onboard
>>>keyboard of the iPhone and then read back in audio. Check out check
>>>out M Brea as an app for the iPhone. Sent from my iPhone > On May 24,
>>>2014, at 10:50 AM, Karen Rose via humanser <humanser at nfbnet.org>
>>>wrote: > > Hi - why not take notes with a bbraille note taker? Or why
>>>not simply record on your phone from inside your purse and no one
>>>would ever know? Everyone else seems to be using their phones for this
>>>purpose. Smile. Karen > > Sent from my iPhone > >> On May 24, 2014, at
>>>9:37 AM, "Dr. Chappell via humanser"
>>><humanser at nfbnet.org> wrote: >> >> Doug, >> You spoke directly to my
>>>reasons for emphasing the
>>>request: >> 1. Obtain means to control my record of the meeting
>>>independent of any other >> control; or arrange for the communication
>>>to be in writing in the first >> place. >> >> 2.
>>>Prevent any communication that could later be misrepresented with no
>>>>> means of defense. >> Thank you for the encouragement and notable
>>>awareness. I will proceed with >> caution. >> -----Original
>>>Message----- >> From: humanser [mailto:humanser-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>>>Behalf Of Doug Lee >> via humanser >> Sent: Saturday, May 24, 2014
>>>8:39 AM >> To: Dr. Chappell via humanser >> Subject: Re: [humanser]
>>>Recording for note taking >> >> This is not a legal opinion, and I do
>>>not possess sufficient legal knowledge >> to render one. This is a
>>>personal opinion... >> >> This sounds very strange to me from the
>>>beginning, as if they have something >> to say of which they want
>>>limited if any record.
>>>I would, in your position, >> want control of who is taking the notes
>>>if I didn't do it myself, and I >> would want to know if it is legal
>>>for me to insist that I choose my >> assistant and without providing
>>>any advance notice of who I will bring to >> the meeting. I would also
>>>want to know if it is legal for me to insist on >> permission to
>>>record the meeting, since it sounds like the substance of the >>
>>>meeting concerns you and would not contain sensitive information about
>>>>> anyone else.
>>>Finally, I wonder if perhaps the organizers of the meeting >> would be
>>>willing to provide you with the same information in writing rather >>
>>>than by talking to you in a meeting whose record you are being
>>>forbidden to >> control. If it is any official communication to you,
>>>such as a performance >> problem, a written account should not be a
>>>problem I would think. >> >> The specific goals of my response to this
>>>situation would be as follows, and >> I would want both met properly:
>>>>> >> 1. Obtain means to control my record of the meeting inde
>>>_______________________________________________
>>>humanser mailing list humanser at nfbnet.org
>>>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/humanser_nfbnet.org
>>>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>humanser:
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>>>st.net
>
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-- 
Kaiti