[humanser] Recording for note taking

Dr. Chappell via humanser humanser at nfbnet.org
Sat May 31 23:30:14 UTC 2014 

Steve,
Thanks for the thought...

-----Original Message-----
From: humanser [mailto:humanser-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Steve
Jacobson via humanser
Sent: Monday, May 26, 2014 4:22 PM
To: Human Services Division Mailing List
Subject: Re: [humanser] Recording for note taking

Mary,

Good luck, and I hope you can let us know how it works out.

Best regards,

Steve Jacobson


On Sun, 25 May 2014 18:13:31 -0400, Dr. Chappell wrote:

>Steve,
>You bring a relevant consideration to our attention. This situation, 
>not unlike so many other situations, is complex. I have considered the 
>varying points you set forth and, given my heightened awareness of the 
>arbitrary nature of the issue and the associated timing, I am believing  
>that what has been, until now, a readily accepted reasonable 
>accommodation is still indicated. Forgive me if you believe this to be 
>short-sighted but, I am firm in this opinion. I welcome feedback from 
>the masses to corroberate or refute my position.
>Genuinely,
>Mary Tatum Chappell, Psy. D.
>-----Original Message-----
>From: humanser [mailto:humanser-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Steve 
>Jacobson via humanser
>Sent: Sunday, May 25, 2014 4:07 PM
>To: Carly Mihalakis via humanser
>Subject: Re: [humanser] Recording for note taking

>Sometimes I think it is so tempting to get caught up in the reasonable 
>accommodations issues that more practical considerations can be overlooked.
>First, as much as possible, I think we need to have a way of taking notes.
>Certainly a braille device is nice and preferable for many of us, but I 
>take a lot of notes on a laptop and as has been said, there are ways to 
>do it with an iPad or iphone as well.  I have heard of people 
>whispering into a stenomask as another possible approach.  In general, 
>recordings simply have a different legal status than do notes.  The 
>existence of a recording can have implications for the speaker as well 
>in a way that notes do not.  Most of the time, the ability to record 
>won't be an issue, but taking notes is virtually never an issue, and 
>taking notes allows the adding of additional information, reactions, or
>thoughts, that are not part of what is being said.   

>Since we do not and probably should not know the exact concerns here, 
>we can only deal in generalities, and it is possible they do not apply 
>here.  One has to realize that there are generally two types of 
>meetings.  One type is a meeting where information is being presented 
>and distributed where most of the participants are really there to 
>receive information.  The other kind of meeting is where all present 
>are involved and the purpose is to arrive at a decision or a 
>conclusion.  Personnel meetings are often of the second type in my
experience.

>In this second type of meeting, often areas are explored for the 
>purpose of working toward a decision or conclusion, but the areas 
>explored are not necessarily significant in and of themselves.  There 
>can be cases where any participant may float an idea that they know is 
>not practical but to get a sense of what the other participants think, 
>to find the boundaries of agreement as it were.  The presence of a 
>recorder in such a meeting can impede such exchanges which can be 
>useful.  Notes, by their very nature, reflect the reactions of the 
>note-taker and don't constitute proof that something was stated as
reflected in those notes.

>I would think it would make a lot of sense to analyze what the purpose 
>of a meeting is and then decide upon the approach to take based upon the
purpose.
>If there is likely going to be an outcome that must be agreed upon, 
>having the agreement so you can feel certain you understand it is going 
>to be a necessity, but it may not be necessary to have every word 
>available that got you to that agreement.  Unless one takes shorthand, 
>a sighted person who feels they want to take notes isn't going to have 
>every word.  In addition, a recording could inhibit discussion that 
>might actually be to the advantage of an employee.

>It may be worth considering that there might be two separate issues here.
>First, How does one be sure to accurately get information that is
presented.
>That is generally what is captured in note taking, and getting such 
>information in writing before a meeting would be another approach to 
>getting that information.  The second issue is accountability.  If one 
>does not trust the people with whom they are meeting, it might work to 
>ask that there be minutes of the meeting to which both of you must 
>agree as a compromise to recording.  If there is truly a concern that 
>something will be said in a meeting but later denied, the possibility 
>of including a third uninvolved person might be explored.  Obviously, 
>one should have the chance to read any document before one signs it, 
>but sometimes one is better off having a reader read the document that 
>is being signed than depending on an accessible version that may not 
>have the final updates.  These things are tricky.

>I don't know if a recording is always seen under the law as a 
>reasonable accommodation as a substitute for taking notes.  Whether it 
>is or not, I think it has to be realized that the existence of a 
>recording is more complicated than simply whether it is or is not a
reasonable accommodation.
>It isn't selling out to look for a solution that meets ones needs while 
>allowing others to be more comfortable.  Sometimes, I think we too 
>quickly reduce complicated issues to simple ones of reasonable 
>accommodations that could even limit our own options.

>Best regards,

>Steve Jacobson

>On Sun, 25 May 2014 04:18:39 -0700, Carly Mihalakis via humanser wrote:

>>Good morning, Karen and everyone,

>>         As a brain damaged person, that is precisely the manner in 
>>which I come to know material covered in class, by Streaming the 
>>lectures then, using the lecture, I put the material into my own words 
>>and type them upon my home comput.
>>for today, Car

>>in which I reveiw material, cisely thae At 11:38 AM 5/24/2014, you wrote:
>>>I did not know you had hand sensitivity issues and could not read 
>>>back in braille. However there is an app called M brain which would 
>>>allow you to take notes using the braille keyboard used on the 
>>>onboard keyboard of the iPhone and then read back in audio. Check out 
>>>check out M Brea as an app for the iPhone. Sent from my iPhone > On 
>>>May 24, 2014, at 10:50 AM, Karen Rose via humanser 
>>><humanser at nfbnet.org>
>>>wrote: > > Hi - why not take notes with a bbraille note taker? Or why 
>>>not simply record on your phone from inside your purse and no one 
>>>would ever know? Everyone else seems to be using their phones for 
>>>this purpose. Smile. Karen > > Sent from my iPhone > >> On May 24, 
>>>2014, at
>>>9:37 AM, "Dr. Chappell via humanser" 
>>><humanser at nfbnet.org> wrote: >> >> Doug, >> You spoke directly to my 
>>>reasons for emphasing the
>>>request: >> 1. Obtain means to control my record of the meeting 
>>>independent of any other >> control; or arrange for the communication 
>>>to be in writing in the first >> place. >> >> 2.
>>>Prevent any communication that could later be misrepresented with no
>>>>> means of defense. >> Thank you for the encouragement and notable
>>>awareness. I will proceed with >> caution. >> -----Original
>>>Message----- >> From: humanser [mailto:humanser-bounces at nfbnet.org] 
>>>On Behalf Of Doug Lee >> via humanser >> Sent: Saturday, May 24, 2014
>>>8:39 AM >> To: Dr. Chappell via humanser >> Subject: Re: [humanser] 
>>>Recording for note taking >> >> This is not a legal opinion, and I do 
>>>not possess sufficient legal knowledge >> to render one. This is a 
>>>personal opinion... >> >> This sounds very strange to me from the 
>>>beginning, as if they have something >> to say of which they want 
>>>limited if any record.
>>>I would, in your position, >> want control of who is taking the notes 
>>>if I didn't do it myself, and I >> would want to know if it is legal 
>>>for me to insist that I choose my >> assistant and without providing 
>>>any advance notice of who I will bring to >> the meeting. I would 
>>>also want to know if it is legal for me to insist on >> permission to 
>>>record the meeting, since it sounds like the substance of the >> 
>>>meeting concerns you and would not contain sensitive information 
>>>about
>>>>> anyone else.
>>>Finally, I wonder if perhaps the organizers of the meeting >> would 
>>>be willing to provide you with the same information in writing rather 
>>>>> than by talking to you in a meeting whose record you are being 
>>>forbidden to >> control. If it is any official communication to you, 
>>>such as a performance >> problem, a written account should not be a 
>>>problem I would think. >> >> The specific goals of my response to 
>>>this situation would be as follows, and >> I would want both met
properly:
>>>>> >> 1. Obtain means to control my record of the meeting inde
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