[nabs-l] Social Etiquette

Tue Nov 4 03:35:07 UTC 2008

Arielle:

Part of the problem, I think, lies in the fact that many blind persons 
don't really believe -- way down in the gut believe -- that the 
undesired behaviors really will have adverse consequences in the world 
of work and adult relations. After all, there is a lot of idealistic 
rhetoric about looking deeper than the surface and judging people by who 
they are, not what they look like. Trouble is that most of the people 
who foist such twaddel upon us aren't all that successful themselves 
very often and so aren't necessarily worth listening to.

Another thing I saw many years ago when a student was that some blind 
students were trying to figure out how they could be a bit eccentric 
without being so weird that their eccentricities were put down to their 
blindness. I never truly came up with an answer for them except that no 
one ever said that blindness wasn't a nuisance and they could take their 
pick between being proud of being weird while not getting anywhere or 
learning to fit in and making far more money than did I. (grin)

Mike

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Arielle Silverman" <arielle71 at gmail.com>
To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" 
<nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Sunday, November 02, 2008 10:07 PM
Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Social Etiquette

Hi all,

I appreciate everyone's responses on these threads; you will help to
contribute to an excellent, informative page on the NABS Web site
geared toward transitioning youth. I would definitely like to include
skill areas as well as suggestions for practical things that students
can do to improve in those areas in preparation for either college or
work. Obviously we will emphasize the importance  of receiving good
training (from an NFB center etc.), but what are suggestions for some
other ways that students can learn/practice skills?

I also agree that many blind people do not behave in accordance with
etiquette rules--my point is just that I think in many cases, it's not
just because they "don't know better" but because they don't feel
motivated to change their behavior. If people are not held to high
expectations they may know intellectually that something should or
shouldn't be done in public (and be able to explain it to you, etc.)
but they haven't had any reason to care about their behavior. That's
why I'm skeptical that simply telling someone that a behavior is
inappropriate once is really enough to motivate them to
change--although being nagged might be an incentive in the short term.
I also think it's  important to understand this when we observe others
around us who don't follow social conventions--it's  not necessarily
that they innocently don't know any differently, but rather that they
may know it intellectually but not really understand it on an
emotional level, or they may simply not care  unless they have some
personal incentive to act in a more appropriate way.

On the Web site we can certainly suggest ways for high school students
to get involved in real social situations (such as joining
extracurriculars or shopping with friends) where they will not only
learn these rules/skills but also develop real incentives to attend to
their social behavior. For example, when I was in high school I did
competitive speech for two years and there were certain nonverbal
behaviors that we were all expected to do. I knew if I wanted to win
the round, I had to do my best to make eye contact with the judges,
stand straight, use appropriate gestures and not rock, for example.
People could remind me about those things a thousand times in class or
 at home, but it was in a speech tournament where those things really
mattered in a tangible way that I really started paying closer
attention to them.

Other thoughts besides the extracurricular and shopping examples I gave 
above?

Arielle

On 11/3/08, Beth <thebluesisloose at gmail.com> wrote:
> That would be the same as picking one's nose or biting one's nails.  I
> admit I rocked my head like Stevie Wonder does sometimes or did.  God
> knows when I saw him last!  Anyway, to answer Sarah's question, a
> gentle but discrete and firm "This kind of thing i.e. pking of eyes,
> moving head, rocking is not appropriate in public" is fine with me.
> Beth
>
> On 11/2/08, David Andrews <dandrews at visi.com> wrote:
>> Many of us have or had them because they are forms of self
>> stimulation ... self soothing.  They feel good so we do them
>> naturally.  We do them when we are anxious, bored and the like.
>>
>> Dave
>>
>> At 04:25 PM 11/2/2008, you wrote:
>>>This is such a great topic. I admit that I had blindisms and still
>>> struggle
>>>to extinguish them totally. I have eye-poking issues and rock
>>> occasionally.
>>>What's interesting is that these seem to be common for all blind 
>>>people.
>>> Why
>>>is it that we all seem to have these blindisms from the start and 
>>>have to
>>>extinguish them as we grow?
>>>I worked at a camp for the blind in the summer and I noticed a bunch 
>>>of
>>>these blindisms but I found it hard to point them out to campers out 
>>>of
>>>shyness and because they were in the company of their parents, my 
>>>age, or
>>>much older. It was weird. If I work there again though I think much 
>>>of my
>>>shyness will be gone though. But how do you tell people their 
>>>behavior is
>>>inappropriate without embarrassing them? Any thoughts?
>>>
>>>-----Original Message-----
>>>From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>>> Behalf
>>>Of Hope Paulos
>>>Sent: Sunday, November 02, 2008 2:27 PM
>>>To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Social Etiquette
>>>
>>>Arielle points out several good examples here and I believe this
>>>to be a wonderful post.  I just wanted to add an experience of my
>>>own and of others with whom I work.  When I was very young, I had
>>>several "Blindisms"- I would rock when not in a rocking chair,
>>>and I would poke my eye.  My parents would not allow me to do
>>>this.  When I got older, my grandmother was talking about how
>>>much I'd matured.  She said she was so proud that I didn't
>>>exhibit those blindisms.  I asked my mother why she insisted that
>>>I stop rocking and she explained that it was socially
>>>inappropriate.  There are times, especially being totally blind,
>>>when  people do things that are socially inappropriate, but they
>>>don't even know this fact.  My mother said that she knew that I
>>>couldn't see the people around me and the fact they were not
>>>rocking or poking  their eyes.  She needed to put a stop to these
>>>behaviors.  She wanted me to not be laughed at and to be socially
>>>appropriate.  Arielle, I'm not sure if this was what you were
>>>talking about, but I figured I'd add it in.  It is in no way my
>>>intention to offend people.  If I have i apologize.     When I
>>>worked at Perkins, I worked with people that would make certain
>>>sounds or flap their hands.  These students ranged in age from 9
>>>to 14.  It was extremely difficult to extinguish these behaviors
>>>at those  ages.  The students  progressed when it came time for
>>>me to leave, but I am uncertain as to whether the behaviors have
>>>been extinguished fully.
>>>
>>> > ----- Original Message -----
>>> >From: "Arielle Silverman" <arielle71 at gmail.com
>>> >To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>> >Date sent: Mon, 3 Nov 2008 05:43:21 +1100
>>> >Subject: [nabs-l] Social Etiquette
>>>
>>> >Hi all,
>>>
>>> >I certainly think that social skills/etiquette is important for
>>>high
>>> >school students to understand when transitioning to college and
>>> >beyond.  One of the difficulties with detailing it on the fact
>>>sheet is
>>> >that many rules of etiquette and social grace vary depending on
>>>the
>>> >situation and the expectations of the people around.  Just as
>>>there is
>>> >more than one way to look fashionable, there is more than one way
>>>to
>>> >be "well-mannered" and what is considered appropriate for one
>>>setting
>>> >may be considered wildly inappropriate in a different one.
>>>Really what
>>> >I think we want to capture is the ability to adapt to situations
>>>and
>>> >"blend in" by following the social/etiquette norms called for in
>>>those
>>> >situations.
>>>
>>> >I would also point out that I think most adolescents (blind and
>>> >sighted) who didn't grow up under a rock have a pretty good
>>> >intellectual knowledge of what is and isn't appropriate public
>>> >behavior.  However, there is a big difference between simply
>>>knowing
>>> >what's appropriate and actually complying with social norms.  In
>>>order
>>> >to comply with social norms one must know what they are, and also
>>>be
>>> >motivated to comply with them, and be in full  control of their
>>> >behavior.  Returning to the hypothetical ten-year-old kid who
>>>picks
>>> >his nose in public, it's possible that he honestly doesn't know
>>>that
>>> >it's inappropriate.  More likely, though, is that he's  been told
>>>it's
>>> >inappropriate before (or laughed at for doing it), but he simply
>>> >doesn't care-either because his parents didn't scold or punish
>>>him for
>>> >doing it, or because they did but they're simply not around in
>>>the
>>> >situation and the kid doesn't think he's likely to get in trouble
>>>for
>>> >picking his nose.  A third possibility is that he is motivated to
>>>not
>>> >pick his nose, but he's just spaced out and doesn't realize he's
>>>doing
>>> >it, or he has a bad nasal itch and feels compelled to scratch
>>>inside
>>> >his nose to relieve it, etc.  The point is that mere knowledge of
>>> >etiquette isn't enough-people have to be motivated (ideally,
>>> >self-motivated) to do what's appropriate.  There are some
>>>behaviors
>>> >commonly seen in blind people-known as "blindisms"-that can
>>>become so
>>> >habitually ingrained that even when people become motivated to
>>>stop
>>> >they still  have difficulty doing it.  Eye-poking is an example
>>>of a
>>> >behavior that most people engaging in it know full well that it's
>>> >unattractive (and bad for their eyes), and often people are
>>>motivated
>>> >to stop, but some have a very hard time completely eliminating
>>>it.
>>> >(Speaking from  personal experience here, but also from
>>>conversations
>>> >with teenagers and adults who have genuinely struggled to stop
>>>and
>>> >still find themselves occasionally poking their eyes).  To give a
>>> >different example, I think the vast majority of adults know about
>>>the
>>> >negative consequences of being chronically late for things, but
>>>there
>>> >are just some people who are always late-maybe they just don't
>>>care,
>>> >or maybe they do but just haven't figured out how to organize
>>>their
>>> >time so they're not late, etc.
>>>
>>> >That said, I do think parents and teachers can help kids improve
>>>their
>>> >social etiquette-not only by teaching what's appropriate
>>>(knowledge),
>>> >but by instilling motivation.  Blind kids may be less motivated
>>>than
>>> >sighted kids to comply with social expectations either because
>>>they've
>>> >been held to lower standards by adults or because they don't see
>>>other
>>> >people's negative reactions to their behavior.  So I think the
>>>emphasis
>>> >should be on teaching blind kids and teens to truly care about
>>> >conducting themselves well in public, adapting to different
>>>social
>>> >situations and building connections with others-rather than just
>>> >telling them to do or not do certain things.  Giving rewards for
>>>good
>>> >behavior and punishments for bad is motivating to an extent, but
>>> >eventually kids need to be motivated regardless of who's around
>>>to
>>> >observe their actions.  Ideally they will learn through
>>>experience that
>>> >following social norms and initiating connections with others
>>>makes
>>> >them happier and helps them to reach their goals.
>>>
>>> >So how do we do this? Any ideas?
>>>
>>> >Arielle
>>>
>>> >_______________________________________________
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