[nabs-l] waver

[Ashley Bramlett]

Mark,
Excellent post.
I believe wavers should be used as a last resort; try to work it out and if 
you take another class make it be related to what you're missing.

I especially agree with your last comment
"I think if more energy were spent fighting the discriminatory design of
products, services, and institutions, and less time spent coming up with
clever ways of getting along within these badly designed systems, all blind
people would be a lot better off, not just the clever ones."

Absolutely.  I would have received a waver for a physical education class if 
my school had one.  I'd say that and a visual art class such as drawing or 
painting are instances where I think a waver is justified.
Some suggestions put forth here to render a class accessible simply are not 
feasible a lot of the time.  The two are having a reader and using 
classmates to glean neccessary information.

As someone who faced discrimination, went the extra mile to the professor to 
ask questions, and kept hitting brick walls, I see where Mark is coming from 
and
do understand why blind students would want a waver.

Two cases from what I was in.  You'll see why readers and classmates are not 
workable solutions all the time.

Readers, even outside class, are hard to get in my experience.  Even when 
living at campus, it was difficult.  Many readers are not qualified; others 
have accents; others are simply unreliable.  I had some readers quit on me 
because they claimed they needed to focus on their own work only.
The college did not provide a reader in class.  Class met twice a week for a 
3 credit class; so one would have to have VR pay for that reader or you'd 
pay yourself; that is a lot of commitment on the reader's part to attend 
class with you.
Many of you suggest using classmates.  This never worked for me except for 
some ocasions; I'm sure I'm not the only one who had problems there.
Classmates didn't want to study together; often schedules didn't match; in 
class they were busy taking their own notes and were not willing to help at 
all.

I faced discrimination when a instructor refused to let me take a ballroom 
dance class at George Mason university.
I was at GMU before transfering.  I explained how I could be accomodated 
including more verbal descriptions and having him show me the moves before 
or during class.  He refused.  The few classes I attended were a mess 
because I couldn't see the moves he was doing.  He was quiet while 
demonstrating rather than being descriptive.  I dropped the class.
It was not required; but if PE was required you better bet I'd get a waver!

Next I was in intercultural communication. This was at Marymount university; 
The professor showed us videos; not many maybe four or five.
Her solution was to get a notetaker for me in class and DSS paid her; but 
Soraya was a bad notetaker; not thourough.
I asked students to go over it with me after class; like summarize it and 
any visual settings I missed; for instance they had a scene from Vietnam and 
I wondered what it looked like.
But no one called me back to discuss it.  Then I asked to borrow the video 
and watch it with a reader.  I'll add a reader I hired; not one provided by 
the school!

Again the professor refused to do this; she would not lend her video out.
The school did not provide a reader in class; one video had subtitles 
because a little was in Vietnamese; finally some student helped me out with 
that.

When I took a class named psychology of the media or something like it, 
again due to the videos I did not have full access to the curriclum; 
classmates were a little more helpful or tried to help here; but they didn't 
know how to describe a video.  The professor was a little more helpful here 
as well; she answered my questions in her office hours.
No readers were provided to describe the films to me.

Mark is right on that more needs to be done to ensure equal access.  Why 
doesn't each
university/college have a section 508 coordinator?  That is someone to 
ensure all matterial the school uses meets accessibility guidelines.
Colleges readily employ software and websites that are not 508 compliant.
Yes products, services and institutions need to be more adaptable.  They 
need to follow laws like the ADA and 504 of the rehab act.
Then we wouldn't have to face discriminatory designs right and left.


Ashley----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Marc Workman" <mworkman.lists at gmail.com>
To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" 
<nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Monday, January 10, 2011 5:08 PM
Subject: Re: [nabs-l] waver


>I wasn't going to say anything, but Sean has motivated me.
>
> SW,
> Being blind, this class would present me with additional challenges and 
> extra work not required of other students.
> Therefore, I shouldn't have to take it.
>
> Short argument, I know. Seems there must be a missing premise there 
> somewhere, no? Maybe something like:
>
> People shouldn't have to do things that aren't fair.
>
> MW,
> Not sure you've presented the argument as strongly as you could have.  How 
> about:
>
> Being blind, this class would present me with additional challenges and 
> extra work not required of other students.
> Being require to complete extra work not required of other students, 
> solely because I'm blind, is a form of discrimination.
> Students should not have to take classes that discriminate.
> Therefore, I shouldn't have to take this particular class.
>
> Now, you'll probably disagree, but don't disagree with the above version. 
> Instead, show me why the following one is wrong, or why the two cases are 
> not the same.
>
> Being a woman, this class would present me with additional challenges and 
> extra work not required of other students.
> Being require to complete extra work not required of other students, 
> solely because I'm a woman, is a form of discrimination.
> Students should not have to take classes that discriminate.
> Therefore, I shouldn't have to take this particular class.
>
> Besides, of course we shouldn't have to do things that are unfair.  I'm 
> not sure exactly what you mean by fair/unfair, but I have in mind 
> something like just/unjust.  Saying we should have to do things that are 
> unfair is like saying we should have to do things that are unjust.  We 
> certainly do have to do things that are unfair/unjust, particularly 
> because we live in an unjust world, but this doesn't mean we should have 
> to do these things.
>
> The point I would make is that a college that requires all students to 
> take very visually oriented classes as part of completion of a degree has 
> been badly designed.  It has been designed on the assumption that only 
> sighted students will be attending the university.  And that is unfair, 
> it's unjust, and it should be challenged.  Do you think it is common to 
> require a music appreciation class at Gallaudet University? Imagine there 
> were a university for the blind, would it make sense to require these 
> highly visual courses? My guess is you will say yes because a lot can be 
> learned from taking courses like this, math, biology, art history, etc.  I 
> agree, but I'm also sure that if Gallaudet required a music appreciation 
> course, and if this blind university required an art history course, the 
> courses would be designed in such a way that the deaf and blind students 
> wouldn't be forced to work harder simply to make up for the ignorance of 
> the people who designed the course/curriculum.
>
> SW,
> If we say we want to be treated like anybody else, we have to mean it. The 
> "when it suits me" Caveat undermines the whole stance.
>
> MW,
> If we say discrimination is wrong, we have to fight against it, in all its 
> forms, including those cases where blind students are forced to do extra 
> work simply because they are blind.
>
> SW,
> Wouldn't it be easier, and maybe more fair, to just have you skip the 
> optional trip?"
>
> MW,
> Don't see how this would be more fair.  Perhaps if there were an argument 
> showing that this really would be more fair, then you'd have something, 
> but without this, I think the analogy fails.
>
> SW,
> Fortunately, we in the NFB are working together to make things less 
> difficult, and through our collective work we have built, and continue to 
> build, a brighter future for all blind people. I will, however, assure you 
> that none of our progress was ever attained by requesting a waiver.
>
> MW,
> It sort of depends on what you mean by a waver.  The NFB has asked for 
> things to be altered for the benefit of the blind.  I read Walking Alone 
> and Marching Together not that long ago, and if I recall, one of the early 
> goals of the organization was to make it so that blind people could earn 
> money in the market place without having welfare benefits cut back.  Is 
> this not a kind of a waver? Everyone else gets their benefits cut when 
> they earn a certain income, but this shouldn't happen for blind people? 
> This is one example that readily comes to mind.  I think pretty much any 
> time a change has been requested that is designed to make things easier 
> for blind people and will lead to differential treatment, this can be 
> construed as a kind of a waver.
>
> I think it is too commonly thought that equality requires equal treatment, 
> or that equal treatment requires treating people the same.  This is a 
> simplistic understanding of equality.  If someone has good reasons for 
> wanting to be treated differently, and I include the fact that treating 
> her the same would result in discrimination among good reasons, then there 
> is nothing wrong with treating her differently.  If someone sees that 
> differential treatment and makes mistaken assumptions about the abilities 
> of blind people, and then discriminates against me in the future, I will 
> hold him responsible for making those false assumptions, not her for 
> insisting on her right to be free from discrimination.
>
> I think if more energy were spent fighting the discriminatory design of 
> products, services, and institutions, and less time spent coming up with 
> clever ways of getting along within these badly designed systems, all 
> blind people would be a lot better off, not just the clever ones.
>
> Best,
>
> Marc
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Sean Whalen" <smwhalenpsp at gmail.com>
> To: <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Monday, January 10, 2011 1:50 PM
> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] waver
>
>
>> Good afternoon,
>>
>> I don't necessarily think that it is the purpose of NABS or the NFB to
>> prescribe rigid stances on issues like class waivers, paratransit use,
>> reduced price tickets for transport, when to accept or not accept
>> assistance, etc. In fact, I think that is not our purpose at all. People,
>> both inside and outside of the organization, seem to get the impression 
>> that
>> we are some monolith that holds clear positions on such issues. If you 
>> want
>> to know what the NFB thinks, go look at our resolutions and the programs 
>> we
>> implement. Those are the policies of the organization. And, while we all
>> work to further them, the policy objectives of the organization may or 
>> may
>> not be in line with the thinking of any particular member of the group. 
>> I,
>> for instance, certainly have my points of disagreement with the NFB's
>> policies in certain areas, and just because I have chosen to be a member
>> does not mean that I have forfeited the right to my own opinions. Like
>> anything, you take the good with the bad. If I tell you I'm a Democrat,
>> would you automatically assume that I hold a specific set of views? Would
>> your knowing that I am a democrat entail your knowing how I feel about 
>> every
>> issue, abortion, economy, education, etc.? Of course it wouldn't. So, why
>> does your knowing that I am an NFB member entail your knowing how I feel
>> about all issues related to blindness? Obviously, it doesn't.
>>
>> This said, when it comes to the question of whether one should take a 
>> waiver
>> for a class, there isn't even an official NFB stance. Nor should there 
>> be.
>> Certainly you are likely to find a prevailing opinion among our 
>> membership,
>> but that doesn't make it "what the NFB thinks."
>>
>> My personal opinion on the matter is that it is lazy, counterproductive, 
>> and
>> absolutely the wrong thing to do. I'm sure somebody can show me a case 
>> where
>> a waiver was the right decision, but there are counterexamples to
>> everything.
>>
>> Ok, so you don't want to take the visual arts class that is required for 
>> a
>> BA. It would present certain challenges, and surely is not essential for
>> your history major. It would be way easier to just pick up 3 other 
>> credits
>> somewhere else. The argument goes:
>>
>> Being blind, this class would present me with additional challenges and
>> extra work not required of other students.
>> Therefore, I shouldn't have to take it.
>>
>> Short argument, I know. Seems there must be a missing premise there
>> somewhere, no? Maybe something like:
>>
>> People shouldn't have to do things that aren't fair.
>>
>> That's about what you'd have to believe to make the "I'm blind, please 
>> don't
>> make me." Argument hold water. Jeez, is it fair that math takes me so 
>> much
>> longer than my classmates. I'm an English major, and who really needs 
>> math
>> anyway? Wouldn't it be more fair if I could pick up some additional 
>> English
>> credits to replace that pesky college algebra? More fair, maybe. Better, 
>> no
>> chance in hell.
>>
>> Universities have these requirements for a reason. You may agree or 
>> disagree
>> with the reason, but there is an objective, namely graduating reasonably
>> well-rounded students, behind them. And please do not come with the line
>> about how blind students simply won't take anything away from certain
>> classes. I, a Political Science and Philosophy major by the way, took
>> calculus, statistics, and economics courses which were heavily visual in
>> many respects. Through work with classmates, instructors and readers I 
>> was
>> able to master the concepts at play in each without ever having any of 
>> the
>> information represented to me visually. So, can I draw or examine 
>> economic
>> or mathematical graphs? Nope, but I can sure understand what economists 
>> are
>> talking about when they refer to them, and I can absolutely ask the right
>> questions of a lay person to glean the information I need from the graph. 
>> So
>> often people get caught up in and intimidated by graphs, when all they 
>> are
>> are tools to represent data and illustrate concepts. Mastery of the
>> underlying concept is what is important.
>>
>> So what about a visual arts class. Fortunately, I never was required to 
>> take
>> one. I say fortunately, because I have no inclination to take such a 
>> class,
>> and don't think I would enjoy it, though one can never know. But what if 
>> I
>> had been required to take a class on art history or something of the 
>> sort.
>> What if I had to have a reader come in and describe paintings to me? 
>> Would
>> that be a pain in the ass? Yes, probably. In an entire semester of 
>> learning
>> about different styles of painting would I ever have the pleasure of
>> enjoying the aesthetic beauty of any of these works? No, I would not, 
>> which,
>> incidentally is just another one of those things in life that isn't fair.
>> But, at the end of the class, would I know something about the 
>> progression
>> of artistic expression that I didn't know at the start? Yes, hopefully I
>> would. That is the point. I likely won't enjoy it, but neither will any 
>> of
>> the other students in the class who were forced to take it to graduate. 
>> So I
>> had to work a little harder to not enjoy something. Such is life. If we 
>> say
>> we want to be treated like anybody else, we have to mean it. The "when it
>> suits me" Caveat undermines the whole stance.
>>
>> Imagine you get a waiver and don't have to take that bothersome art class 
>> or
>> science lab, but some time later you wish to go on a student trip abroad,
>> and the school doesn't want to allow you to come along. "Why do you need 
>> to
>> come with us to Egypt?" they ask, "It isn't required for your major, and
>> besides, it would really present us with some logistical problems." 
>> Wouldn't
>> it be easier, and maybe more fair, to just have you skip the optional 
>> trip?"
>>
>> I'll leave it to you to draw the parallel.
>>
>> If you think you can compete, compete. If you think it's just too hard, 
>> then
>> either just cash it in now, or take a real close look at what you believe
>> and ask yourself whether it is consistent with your ending up where you 
>> want
>> to be in life.
>>
>> Sorry for the length, but this thread has been driving me up the wall. 
>> All
>> the bellyaching: "This is hard because I'm blind." "That sucks because 
>> I'm
>> blind." A lot of things suck about being blind. A lot of things also suck
>> about being stupid, disorganized, or lazy; having cancer or having one 
>> leg;
>> or growing old and dying. That. is. life!
>>
>> Fortunately, we in the NFB are working together to make things less
>> difficult, and through our collective work we have built, and continue to
>> build, a brighter future for all blind people. I will, however, assure 
>> you
>> that none of our progress was ever attained by requesting a waiver.
>>
>> Sean
>>
>>
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