[nabs-l] Security in ourselves, acceptance in others

Tue Jun 14 02:41:48 UTC 2011

Hi, Dave,

I too appreciate human hands having a hand in the moderating of this 
lis. Makes all the difference!
Car At 01:59 PM 6/13/2011, Chris Nusbaum wrote:
>Dave,
>
>I do agree that you run things with a light hand and I appreciate 
>the fact that you actually moderate and participate in this list.
>I use to be on the BrailleNote users list, which they said was 
>monitored by HumanWare staff, but whenever we posted a question that 
>stumped the everyday users or provided a suggestion to HumanWare, it 
>seemed to go unnoticed by their staff.  We didn't see anyone from 
>HumanWare ever post to the list, let alone monitor it.  So I was 
>glad when I joined this and other NFB lists, and it gave me the name 
>and email address of the moderator right on the page! I'm not sure 
>how your computer or email client is set up, but I attached the 
>Forum in three formats, Word, plain text (or TXT) and plain Braille 
>(or BRF.) I did this only so everyone could access it, and we 
>wouldn't be getting emails from people saying, "I can't open this 
>Word file, I have a Mac or a notetaker.  Please send it in this 
>format," and I wouldn't be sending the same file a bunch of 
>times.  Just clarifying! Thank you for your monitoring on this list 
>and I respect your decision as the moderator.
>
>Chris
>
>"A loss of sight, never a loss of vision!" (Camp Abilities motto)
>To learn more about Camp Abilities and find a local camp near you, 
>just click on this link to their national Web site: www.campabilities.org.
>
>The I C.A.N.  Foundation helps visually impaired youth in Maryland 
>have the ability to confidently say "I can!" How? Click on this link 
>to learn more and to contribute: www.icanfoundation.info.
>
>PS: Last chance to get your tickets for the I C.A.N.
>Foundation's Night Out at the Frederick Keys fundraiser on June 4th! 
>They're only 6 dollars per ticket and all proceeds go to the 
>Foundation to help the blind and visually impaired youth in 
>Maryland! Get your tickets today by contacting Wendy Nusbaum by 
>email at wendynusbaum at yahoo.com.  Visit the above link to the I 
>C.A.N.  Foundation Web site for more information or join us on 
>Facebook at "I C.A.N.  Foundation: nonprofit organization." Hope to 
>see you at the game!!!
>
>--- Sent from my BrailleNote
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: David Andrews <dandrews at visi.com
>To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
><nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>Date sent: Thu, 09 Jun 2011 22:38:02 -0500
>Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Security in ourselves, acceptance in others
>
>I will say two things, and then ask everybody to just move
>on.  Frankly what I objected the most was attaching three versions of
>the Braille Forum to a message.  It just isn't necessary for the
>discussion of one article.  and ...  in general I think I run things
>with a pretty light hand -- the other endless debates prove that, but
>when I do say something why is it that everybody feels compelled to
>argue with me.?
>
>Dave
>
>
>Dave,
>   I know you have the final say on what does and does not appear on
>this list.  I certainly respect your decision.  However, I do have one
>concern.
>   Certainly correct me if I'm wrong but, as I understand it, the
>purpose of this list is to discuss matters relevant to blind students.
>  For me as a blind student, knowing the history and background of the
>two major consumer organizations that represent blind people is
>absolutely important, critical even.  Blind students, many of whom
>having little or no exposure to either us or the Council, wonder why
>there are such deep-seeded philosophical differences that keep our two
>organizations from always working together.  Certainly I didn't
>understand the huge differences between the NFB and ACB until I
>studied their histories at length, and it was one of the biggest
>factors that kept me out of the Federation.  I thought "why can't
>these people just work together and get along?"  Had I been exposed to
>this history earlier in my academic career, it's fair to say I would
>have been more willing to network with other blind students in the
>Federation at a younger age.  My perception was honestly that there
>were two organizations, basically working for the same thing but
>bickering over silly past history.  Once I was exposed to the "civil
>war", and what really happened, I was more able to understand why the
>two groups are not the same, and don't aim for exactly the same thing.
>   So, all I'm trying to say is this issue is absolutely germane to
>blind students.  We need to know our history, it helps us decide what
>we're going to do now.  So I ask you, with civility and an open mind,
>why this question is not appropriate for a list of blind students?
>What makes this issue any different from the countless others we've
>debated in the past?  Certainly it matters to us blind students and it
>matters to us a great deal.  I honestly want to know what makes this
>question not fit to be discussed here.
>   Respectfully,
>Kirt
>
>On 6/9/11, Kirt Manwaring <kirt.crazydude at gmail.com> wrote:
>Jorge,
>   I disagree with you on the last point.  I think Dave was trying to
>keep the debate which doubtless would have ensued from spamming
>everyone's inboxes.  Although, now that I think about it, that makes me
>wonder why we've been free to debate ad noseum before about other
>things.
>   I've heard people in NFB leadership encourage the study of both NFB
>and ACB philosophy and history, some have even suggested the book
>People of Vision, on this list, as reading material for us.  So, no, I
>don't think they're trying to shelter us or keep us from reading ACB
>literature on our own time, I think Dave's trying to keep it from this
>NFB-sponsored public forum.  Do I agree with his decision?  With all
>cander, no.  But I think it's a bit of a stretch to assume that the
>NFB leadership is actively trying to keep us from studying the
>positions and dynamic changing views of the ACB.  If anything, I think
>they want future leaders to be as informed as possible about who
>they're dealing with in the political arena.
>   Respectfully,
>Kirt
>
>On 6/9/11, Jorge Paez <computertechjorgepaez at gmail.com> wrote:
>And--is not the NFB Braille Monitor a copyrighted property?
>
>Yet we encourage distributing it.
>
>I'm sure neither the NFB or ACB would have a problem with either being
>distributed for free would they?
>
>
>Or, and I say this with respect to everyone involved, is it just "not
>good"
>for the leadership if we hear the ACB's side?
>
>
>
>
>
>On Jun 9, 2011, at 9:02 PM, Kirt Manwaring wrote:
>
>David,
>  I do understand the Braille Forum is a copyrighted publication of
>the American Council of the Blind, so there might be legal/ethical
>issues with distributing it outside official ACB channels.  But I am
>slightly curious (and I say this with the utmost respect), would
>circulating an issue of the braille Monitor  describing the split in
>terms favorable to the Federation be "not appropriate for this list?"
>  Sincerely,
>Kirt
>
>On 6/9/11, Jorge Paez <computertechjorgepaez at gmail.com> wrote:
>David:
>With all due respect, can we not have an open mind?
>
>After all: Chris isn't doing any obvious harm by presenting an opposing
>view
>is he?
>Is he telling us to join the ACB?
>No, and I take that as harmless.
>
>Why silence what could possibly be a question that will be brought up
>by
>future leaders anyway?
>
>Sooner or later we'll have to debate not the marrits or not of the
>organization, but what we stand fore because as the world evolves, so
>must
>our stance on issues--we can never stand solid by one policy and say we
>will
>follow it until we die for if the target changes, then so must our
>aim--and
>we should be open to anything and consider all as long as our
>principles
>of
>blind independence and first class citizenship are not at risk.
>
>You realize its not the ACB that you oppose, its their ideas, and are
>we
>not
>open to discussion on this?
>Just because we talk doesn't mean we do,
>are you by any stretch of the imagination suggesting that there is a
>hidden
>threat in reading a politically contrary paper?
>
>I agree--if Chris were to do it every month I would see why,
>but just once won't hurt anyone will it?
>
>
>Jorge
>
>
>On Jun 9, 2011, at 4:42 PM, David Andrews wrote:
>
>Chris:
>
>While what you are trying to do is "well meaning," it is
>inappropriate,
>and not in step with the purpose of this list.  This is not a debating
>society, and nor are we a vehicle to distribute the Braille Forum.
>This
>list is for NABS and blind students, not to discuss the founding of
>the
>ACB, or debate how it is different from the NFB.
>
>David Andrews, List Owner
>
>
>
>At 02:55 PM 6/9/2011, you wrote:
>Hmm...  that's interesting.  Well, I went out of my comfort zone a
>little
>and signed up to get both the Monitor and the Braille Forum (ACB's
>magazine) by email.  I will attach this month's Braille Forum.
>Although
>a lot of it has to do with the lagistics of their convention in Reno,
>please especially take time to read the President's Message column
>from
>Mitch Pomerantz.  You'll see there what he says about the NFB and Dr.
>TenBroek and Dr.
>Jernigan, while comparing the ACB's founding to that of the United
>States.  What do you all think of this? Am I stirring the pot too
>much?
>Oh heck...  another little debate won't hurt.  * Smile!
>
>
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