[nabs-l] draft 2 - complete section with amendment

Jorge Paez computertechjorgepaez at gmail.com
Sun Jun 19 19:03:59 UTC 2011 

Kirt:
Well said.
I might add, that voice votes, for a division like NABS, would allow a chance for non-members to vote, and that would surely break the whole purpose of having to pay 5 dollars to begin with.
If we're concerned about non-members voting in an online system, don't even consider the voice vote, not for NABS at least.



On Jun 19, 2011, at 1:40 PM, Kirt Manwaring wrote:

> Peter,
>  Reinventing the wheel is sometimes good.  If we hadn't reinvented
> the wheel, black people wouldn't be voting.  If we hadn't reinvented
> the wheel, the NFB wouldn't be around.  Without us reinventing the
> wheel, there would be no blind driver challenge, whatever your
> personal opinion a bout that may be.  I say sometimes the wheel needs
> to be reinvented-even perfectly good systems can be made better.  A
> counting procedure is better than a voice vote, IMHO, at least for a
> devision the size of NABS.  I wouldn't say it would be better for the
> NFB as a whole but hey, aren't devisions acorded to run their
> elections the way that works best for them?
>  Best,
> Kirt
> 
> On 6/19/11, Kirt Manwaring <kirt.crazydude at gmail.com> wrote:
>> Jorge,
>>  I admit our current system is *not* fool proof.  A non-member can
>> come to national convention, pay the dues, register to vote, and
>> influence the election.  But, in a funny way, I'd rather have that
>> kind of non-member, who is willing to put in the week of time, make
>> the illegal vote over the non-member you can just give $5 to so they
>> can register and become a member online.
>>  Just my thoughts,
>> Kirt
>> 
>> On 6/19/11, Peter Donahue <pdonahue2 at satx.rr.com> wrote:
>>> Hello everyone,
>>> 
>>>    The vast majority of our local chapters and affiliates conduct fare
>>> elections without resorting to junk like this. Angela Wolfe cautioned
>>> NABS
>>> on the use of cards in 2009. I know because I was there and have the
>>> recording of her remarks. It's on the NABS Web Site for all to hear.
>>> Every
>>> time I've heard a card/ballot system of this kind tried it does nothing
>>> but
>>> slow down the election process and make the procedure cumbersome and more
>>> of
>>> a hassle than need be. If you want your elections to run more smoothly
>>> get
>>> rid of the cards and use the good old voice vote system like our other
>>> affiliates use. There's little if any concern about individuals voting
>>> when
>>> they shouldn't. Stick with what works and quit trying to reinvent the
>>> wheel.
>>> 
>>>    Our national constitution got us this far so why monkey with
>>> something
>>> that works and has proven its weight in gold? You have more important
>>> things
>>> to do than to implement ridiculous election procedures and monkeying with
>>> your constitution every time you turn around. JMO.
>>> 
>>> Peter Donahue
>>> 
>>> 
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Arielle Silverman" <nabs.president at gmail.com>
>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
>>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>>> Sent: Sunday, June 19, 2011 10:50 AM
>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] draft 2 - complete section with amendment
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Hi George,
>>> That's a good question. When people come to the NABS business meeting
>>> and  pay their dues, they are given a set of ballots. Only people who
>>> stop by the registration table and give our treasurer their $5 get
>>> ballots. I think this is a pretty good way of ensuring that only paid
>>> members vote.
>>> Sure, we can allow people to pay throughout the year and create a
>>> tracking system. I think that is a good idea. However, once they've
>>> paid, if they want to vote online, how do we prove they've paid
>>> beforehand?
>>> It might work if people pay their $5 online right before the election.
>>> But even then, I worry about hackers and other fancy computer gimmicks
>>> that might game the system.
>>> Arielle
>>> 
>>> On 6/19/11, Jorge Paez <computertechjorgepaez at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> Arielle:
>>>> With all due respect,
>>>> how would we be able to identify current members without any problem?
>>>> 
>>>> That is to say,
>>>> do we keep some kind of database of who is *currently* on NABS?
>>>> The reason I'm asking is because I don't see how NABS keeps track of
>>>> current
>>>> membership to begin with,  let alone new members.
>>>> 
>>>> Are you saying you're opposed to such an amendment because it would mean
>>>> creating a tracking system for the entire membership?
>>>> 
>>>> And if so, wouldn't this help NABS in the long run?
>>>> 
>>>> Thanks,
>>>> 
>>>> Jorge
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> On Jun 19, 2011, at 1:52 AM, Arielle Silverman wrote:
>>>> 
>>>>> Excellent point, Kurt. I have heard of cases at state conventions
>>>>> where candidates brought all  their friends who were not NFB members
>>>>> on the day of the election to pay their dues and vote in person. Sure,
>>>>> this could happen at a national convention, but it seems less likely,
>>>>> and much more likely if absentee voting were allowed. The problem
>>>>> could be minimized by requiring payment of dues a month or so in
>>>>> advance of the election. But even then, how could we verify payment
>>>>> status virtually? The U.S. government allows mail-in voting, but in
>>>>> that case candidates are clearly identified in advance. In short, even
>>>>> if this amendment were permissible and philosophically desirable, our
>>>>> election procedures, from nomination of candidates to membership
>>>>> verification, would have to be radically modified. I'm not opposed to
>>>>> change, but I question whether the dramatic investment of effort
>>>>> required is worth the benefit of allowing a few more people to vote.
>>>>> As Darian emphasized, there are many, many other ways we can be using
>>>>> our energy and exercising our membership rights.
>>>>> Respectfully,
>>>>> Arielle
>>>>> 
>>>>> On 6/18/11, Kirt Manwaring <kirt.crazydude at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>> Jorge,
>>>>>> You're putting this out in the open for public scrutiny so I'm going
>>>>>> to be honest.  I really, really don't like the idea-it opens up all
>>>>>> sorts of cans of worms that don't seem right to me.  Consider the
>>>>>> following.
>>>>>> We probably won't know all the candidates in the election *until*
>>>>>> the actual business meeting.  There could be someone who, for whatever
>>>>>> reason, hasn't announced their candidacy for office on the list.  I
>>>>>> think it's only fair that anyone who's even considering voting in the
>>>>>> election knows who all candidates are and has the opportunity to
>>>>>> listen to each introduction speech (even if it's only 30 seconds
>>>>>> long), before they cast their ballot.  That's only fair to all the
>>>>>> candidates involved.  I would consider supporting an idea that allows
>>>>>> those due-paying members in virtual attendance (through an official
>>>>>> NABS skype call or the like) the opportunity to vote.  Beyond that, I
>>>>>> don't think you have much of a case.
>>>>>> Also, think about this.  Let's say you, hypothetically, were running
>>>>>> for NABS president.  You get a bunch of your blind friends who aren't
>>>>>> going to convention, who may or may not want anything to do with the
>>>>>> Federation, and have them pay $5 so they're voting members.  I'm not
>>>>>> saying you'd do such a thing, I'm just saying you're leaving that kind
>>>>>> of possibility open.  No matter how secure the voting method is, that
>>>>>> makes this something that could happen.  Do other organizations open
>>>>>> that door?  Sure.  Should we?  I say no.
>>>>>> But the spirit behind the idea isn't bad.  I think, personally, if
>>>>>> we could ensure some sort of secure method for virtual attendance at
>>>>>> the meeting for those due-paying members who can't make convention,
>>>>>> I'd be all for allowing them to vote.  Maybe set up a shoutcast server
>>>>>> streaming the meeting, and only give the password to those due-paying
>>>>>> members who request it?  Make a conference call and only give the
>>>>>> calling info/access code for those due-paying members who ask for it?
>>>>>> If we instituted a system like that, I don't see why we couldn't allow
>>>>>> that sort of absentee voting, but only for those who are in virtual
>>>>>> attendance at the NABS business meeting and not for anyone else.  Am I
>>>>>> making any sense?  Is that a possibility?
>>>>>> All the best,
>>>>>> Kirt
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> On 6/18/11, Jorge Paez <computertechjorgepaez at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>> Arielle:
>>>>>>> Not exactly,
>>>>>>> I'm going to continue to edit the amendment myself and should be able
>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>> submit it before July second.
>>>>>>> I posted this version so that people could see my amendment in light
>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>> entire section.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> On Jun 18, 2011, at 7:59 PM, Arielle Silverman wrote:
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Jorge,
>>>>>>>> Is this the final version you would like read at the NABS meeting
>>>>>>>> this
>>>>>>>> year? Or, would you like to wait until 2012 when you will be at
>>>>>>>> convention yourself and can present and defend it?
>>>>>>>> If you want it read in 2011 and you will not be at convention, you
>>>>>>>> will need to find someone else who will be there to read and defend
>>>>>>>> it.
>>>>>>>> Arielle
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> On 6/17/11, Joseph C. Lininger <jbahm at pcdesk.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> George,
>>>>>>>>> I hate to be a killjoy on you, but you're probably wasting your
>>>>>>>>> time
>>>>>>>>> with this. The organization isn't going to change this particular
>>>>>>>>> policy, no matter how many people would like to see it happen. For
>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>> record, I'm with you on this one, but I'm also no longer a
>>>>>>>>> federationest
>>>>>>>>> and haven't been for some years now. Too many differences of
>>>>>>>>> opinion.
>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>> "All models are wrong, but some are useful." George E. P. Box
>>>>>>>>> Joseph C. Lininger, <jbahm at pcdesk.net>
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
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>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>> Arielle Silverman
>>>>>>>> President, National Association of Blind Students
>>>>>>>> Phone:  602-502-2255
>>>>>>>> Email:
>>>>>>>> nabs.president at gmail.com
>>>>>>>> Website:
>>>>>>>> www.nabslink.org
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>> 
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>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> --
>>>>> Arielle Silverman
>>>>> President, National Association of Blind Students
>>>>> Phone:  602-502-2255
>>>>> Email:
>>>>> nabs.president at gmail.com
>>>>> Website:
>>>>> www.nabslink.org
>>>>> 
>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>> 
>>>> 
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>>> 
>>> 
>>> --
>>> Arielle Silverman
>>> President, National Association of Blind Students
>>> Phone:  602-502-2255
>>> Email:
>>> nabs.president at gmail.com
>>> Website:
>>> www.nabslink.org
>>> 
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>>> 
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>> 
> 
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