[nabs-l] [Nfbnet-members-list] Threw Our Eyes interview, Ride into History, Race for Independence, Wed. June 22, 8:00 pm EDT
Chris Nusbaum
dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com
Thu Jun 23 16:26:32 UTC 2011
Hi Anmol,
I agree completely! I'm a Federationist because I identify with
the NFB philosophy as a whole like you, but my personal rule is
to take what I like about both organizations and leave alone what
I don't. I don't believe in attacking any person or organization
because of political differences, especially those that were
apparent a long time ago, but not as much now. That's why Jorge,
Kirt and I are starting our own list where all blind people can
talk about blindness-related issues without partisan interferance
on either end. This list will be on Yahoo Groups. We're going
to have a conference call at the opening of the list, which will
introduce interested people to both organizations. We will have
representation of both the NFB and ACB on both the conference
call and on the list. Please feel free to email me off list at
dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com if you have any questions about the call
or the list or would like to join us in setting it up. I'll post
information here about the conference call and the list when it
gets closer to that time. Hope you will join us!
Chris
"A loss of sight, never a loss of vision!" (Camp Abilities motto)
To learn more about Camp Abilities and find a local camp near
you, just click on this link to their national Web site:
www.campabilities.org.
The I C.A.N. Foundation helps visually impaired youth in
Maryland have the ability to confidently say "I can!" How? Click
on this link to learn more and to contribute:
www.icanfoundation.info.
Sent from my BrailleNote
----- Original Message -----
From: Anmol Bhatia <anmolpbhatia at yahoo.com
To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
<nabs-l at nfbnet.org
Date sent: Wed, 22 Jun 2011 10:46:09 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Re: [nabs-l] [Nfbnet-members-list] Threw Our Eyes
interview,Ride into History, Race for Independence, Wed. June
22, 8:00 pm EDT
Kirt,
You have done a good job summarizing the differences between the
ACB and NFB, but even though there is a difference in
philosophies, members often find themselves some parts of the
philosophie of the other organization and as you have already
said that there is nothing wrong with eather philosophies.
I happen to be a federationest because I agree with the central
idea of the NFB philosophies that "through proper training and
education, blindness can become a meer nuisance". However, I
also happen to support many of the ACB positions. For example, I
happen to support currency accessibility because more then 100
countries have currency which is accessible for the blind and it
does not seem to be a problem. Plus I happen that not being to
identify my mone independently is an asult on my independence and
even though technology exist to help me identify my money, it is
not independence because it depends on my having the money
identifier and for the identifier to work. Although I agree that
a blind person should be train to use their hearing and
understand the traffic patterns, but having audible street
signals are sometimes good for those who are not as confident
with their mobility skills and it does not hurt to have them in
some streets particular
those who are frequented by blind individuals and are busy.
Basically my personal philosophies is that a fine combinnation
when applicable between the NFB philosophies and the ACB
philosophies is the best to advance independence and
opportunities for blind people.
Great discussion my friend.
Anmol
I seldom think about my limitations, and they never make me sad.
Perhaps there is just a touch of yearning at times; but it is
vague, like a breeze among flowers.
Hellen Keller
--- On Wed, 6/22/11, Kirt Manwaring <kirt.crazydude at gmail.com>
wrote:
From: Kirt Manwaring <kirt.crazydude at gmail.com
Subject: Re: [nabs-l] [Nfbnet-members-list] Threw Our Eyes
interview, Ride into History, Race for Independence, Wed. June
22, 8:00 pm EDT
To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
<nabs-l at nfbnet.org
Date: Wednesday, June 22, 2011, 11:57 AM
Anmol,
It's a nice thought. Maybe it'll be possible,
some day. Never say
never, ri9ght?
But here's the thing. The two organizations
have evolved two
separate philosophies and mindsets. I'm doing
something really bad
and generalizing. If anyone who knows more than I do
wants to correct
me here, feel free.
The stance the ACB seems to take more often than not
is to make the
environment more accessible for us. This is evidenced
by their
support for audible street signals (which make a lot of
sense to me,
I'm not really convinced one way or the other on that one
yet),
tactile currency, descriptive movies, the provisions in the
ADA to
make ATMs accessible, the 21st century communications act,
their
support for Randolph-Shepherd, universal design in
technology, etc.
They also use lots of their resources to fight
descrimination, at
least it seems that way to me.
The NFB, on the other hand, seems to more often than
not advocate us
adapting to the environment. This is evidenced by the
strict
standards of training centers, pushing braille, opposition
to the
tactile currency idea, advocacy of relying on traffic
rather than
audible signals (which makes a lot of sense to me), our
philosophy
that with the right training and opportunity we can compete
on an
equal footing, the idea of the blind driver challenge,
etc. Of course
the NFB sometimes pushes making changes in the environment
(technology
bill of rights, Help America Vote Act, and the ADA which we
also
supported), and the ACB does advocate for quality
independence
training/O&M. But, those are the rough
philosophies of the two
organizations, if we're going by their records. Is
the ACB wrong?
No, I don't think so, but the NFB is more of a fit with my
vision of
blindness. I just think thee two separate
methodoligies willkeep us
from ever uniting as one group...and that's ok. We
all have the
right, even the obligation to advocate for ourselves and
those we
represent. The ACB does it their way, we do it
ours. Sometimes there
is overlap, lots of times our philosophies take us in
different
directions and put us on opposite sides of important
issues. When our
aims are the same (or similar), we need to work together
and present a
united front. When we are at odds (which we often
are, the two
organizations really are very different), we both have the
right to
push our separate agendas and attempt to get our policies
implimented.
Sometimes they win, sometimes we win, that's
politics. We don't have
to be bitter about it and, on the personal level, we can
still be good
friends even when our politics are at odds.
Just my thoughts,
Kirt
On 6/22/11, Anmol Bhatia <anmolpbhatia at yahoo.com
wrote:
Kirt,
You bring some vary valid points, and yes we have
beaten the
democrats/republicans analogy to death but it
keeps coming up as a
comparison, so I will just say one thing about this. I
may have already said
this before on the list, but please furgive me if I
have. The blind
community is a to small of a community to be divided
on partizen lines like
democrats and republicans, and our challenges are to
great to be divided
like democrats and republicans. Sure there will be
differences between
members of the ACB and members of the NFB on how
business should be
conducted, but honestly there differences between
members of each
organization on how their organization should do
business.
True there were disagreement on how business should
and leadership issues
causing the split between the NFB and ACB, I consider
the leadership issues
to be pitty differences. Often when one candidate
loses, they and their
supporters go and form their on organization or
chapter. This happened at my
local NFB chapter and as a result we have two NFB
chapters in a small town.
Now some may consider this to be a good thing, but
think about how much more
we can achieve if we were one NFB chapter in
Fayetteville in recruiting,
fund raising and my volunteers for events. In
addition, these types of
childish arguements causes many blind people who
otherwise may be involved
in a blind organization to be a "fense sitters". Now
using this analogy to
NFB ACB, ACB does not have near the funds that NFB
has, but they are not
poor eather. Their attendence is not as large at the
conventions, but it is
not small eather. Think if both of these organizations
were together how
much more money we would have to do policy that
each organization does or
the advocacy work that each organization does,
and think about how much
larger the convention would be. We would pack two
hotels full or near full.
In addition, think about how much venders would be
giving out in prizes
because now insteading having to spend money to send
their workers to two
convention, they will only have to send their workers
to one convention. In
addition, most venders give out big prizes at each
convention and if there
was only one convention, they can give two prizes.
However, you are right in that realistically the two
organizations will not
merge any time soon.
best wishes,
Anmol
I seldom think about my limitations, and they never
make me sad. Perhaps
there is just a touch of yearning at times; but it is
vague, like a breeze
among flowers.
Hellen Keller
--- On Tue, 6/21/11, Kirt Manwaring <kirt.crazydude at gmail.com
wrote:
From: Kirt Manwaring <kirt.crazydude at gmail.com
Subject: Re: [nabs-l] [Nfbnet-members-list] Threw
Our Eyes interview, Ride
into History, Race for Independence, Wed. June 22,
8:00 pm EDT
To: "National Association of Blind Students
mailing list"
<nabs-l at nfbnet.org
Date: Tuesday, June 21, 2011, 2:51 PM
Anmol,
I don't really see a merger happening any time
soon,
nor would I
want it to. We've all beaten the
democrat/republican
analogy to
death...but imagine Barack Obama and Mitt Romney
in the
same political
party. It just wouldn't work. There are huge
differences. It
doesn't make the NFB better for everyone, but it
makes the
NFB better
for me. I have lots of respect for my friends in
the
ACB who stand up
and fight for their agenda. Lots of the times,
it's
the same as mine.
When it's not, we can talk without being
jackasses to each
other and,
in a lot of cases, the disagreement actually
strengthens
our
friendship.
I say diversity is good, competition is good,
we
need a free market
of ideas. I respect ACB and the sincere people
there
trying to make
the lives of blind people better. I happen to
find
the Federation
philosophy and method more meaningful for me. I
want
to understand
the split. From the little bit of studying I've
done,
I don't really
think it was petty personal differences but
rather
differing
philosophies about methodology and leadership that
drove
the two
groups to separate. We can be different without
being
petty. We can
disagree without being bigots. When our two
organizations come down
on opposite sides of important issues, as we often
do, we
need not be
arrogant or self-rightious because we think we're
right. The fact is,
we disagree. And I think the disagreements are
too
central to our
respective organizations for us to ever become
one.
But that doesn't
mean we can't be friends, especially on a personal
level.
Best,
Kirt
On 6/21/11, Anmol Bhatia <anmolpbhatia at yahoo.com
wrote:
Kirt,
You are bringing up some vary good points...
Understanding the history of
the NFB and ACB is an import part in the
history in
the blind movement and
an important part in the history of two
organizations.
Frankly in it is just
my oppinion both organizations bring value
and have
and continue to make a
difference for blind people across America on
a daily
bases. It is a shame
that this split happened and just maybe the
next
generation of blind
individuals our generation or those who are
younger
then can bring the two
organizations together once again. Now this
is just my
translation and my
oppinion, but it seems to me that the NFB
ACB
split happened over pitty
differences and two individuals with
different ideas
fighting for power. It
seems to me that the hate the two
organizations have
towards each other is
not as strong amongest this generation.
Infact many
members of NABS of ACB
and NABS of NFB are friends in life and
attack on the
other organization is
usually not allow on each organization's
mailing
list.
Dave, you are right that ACB does not have
the same
amount of people
attending its' convention, but their
attendence is not
small eather. I would
guess 1500 attend the ACB convention and all
the major
venders who attend
the NFB convention attend the ACB convention.
There
are also quite a few
young people who attend the ACB convention.
Yes ACB does its' business different then
NFB, but
thats why they are a
different organization. However, this does
not make
them any worse or better
then the NFB.
Just my thoughts and it would be great if we
keep the
attacks on each
organization to as less as possible.
Anmol
I seldom think about my limitations, and they
never
make me sad. Perhaps
there is just a touch of yearning at times;
but it is
vague, like a breeze
among flowers.
Hellen Keller
--- On Tue, 6/21/11, Kirt Manwaring <kirt.crazydude at gmail.com
wrote:
From: Kirt Manwaring <kirt.crazydude at gmail.com
Subject: Re: [nabs-l]
[Nfbnet-members-list] Threw
Our Eyes interview, Ride
into History, Race for Independence, Wed.
June 22,
8:00 pm EDT
To: "National Association of Blind
Students
mailing list"
<nabs-l at nfbnet.org
Date: Tuesday, June 21, 2011, 12:25 PM
Dave,
How long ago was this? Things
could've
changed
since you last went
if it's been a while, maybe? And, with
respect,
this
is a big deal to
a lot of us. I know for me it's a lot
more than
a
"small
consideration", I like to know the past
as much as
I can
because it
shaped the here and now. I can read the
books
put out
by each
organization-they probably both have lots
of the
truth
intermingled
with their respective agendas. But
nothing
beats
talking to people
who have studied the issues or,
preferably, people
who were
actually
there.
All the best,
Kirt
On 6/21/11, David Andrews <dandrews at visi.com
wrote:
The two biggest things I noticed at
an ACB
national
convention were
that the crowd was considerably
smaller than
that at a
NFB convention
-- less exhibits etc. too. The
second
things was
that there were few
young persons -- some but noticeably
not
very
many. One of the major
things that the ACB has pushed in
the past is
that it
is different
from the NFB, it does things
differently
etc.
This doesn't really
matter to younger people though, so
they have
little
reason to join, so
don't.
You guys can spend lots of time on
the
history, and
differences if
you want -- but what is the point.
It
happened,
it is over with and
done. Yes we can and should learn
from our
history, but it is just
one small consideration.
Dave
At 11:32 AM 6/20/2011, you wrote:
Dave,
I do see your point.
Those
alive at the time are not, and will
probabluy never be friends.
Heck,
getting
them to actually talk in
peace would be the achievement of
the
century! if such a call were
to hypothetically happen, how
could we
keep it from
opening old wounds
and stoking old fires?
Best,
Kirt
On 6/20/11, Chris Nusbaum <dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com
wrote:
Dave,
Our joint conference call
isn't
associated
whatsoever with the
proposition of a change in
the NFB
bylaw. If I'm setting this
up, which it appears I am,
I didn't
even have
the intention of
mentioning that proposition
on the
call. The call's purpose is
to learn the history of the
NFB/ACB,
with a
little emphasis on
the "civil war" period,
from both
sides so we
are informed. I
also want this call to
start a
discussion on
the history of our
movement and what we can
learn from
it, not
only as
Federationists, but as
blind
students.
Jorge and I have found
some ways that we can hold
the call
without
making it a NABS
membership call, if it is
entirely
necessary. And as to your
comments about them not
being our
friends,
then using your
argument, the Republicans
should not
hear the
Democrats point of
view in meetings of
Congress, but
the two
parties should be
separated from each other
for fear
of their
own side being
attacked. We can keep our
same
opinions, and probably many
Federationists and Council
members
who attend
this call will.
This is just a way that we
can be
more
informed when forming
these opinions.
Chris
"A loss of sight, never a
loss of
vision!"
(Camp Abilities motto)
To learn more about Camp
Abilities
and find a
local camp near
you, just click on this
link to
their
national Web site:
www.campabilities.org.
The I C.A.N. Foundation
helps
visually
impaired youth in
Maryland have the ability
to
confidently say
"I can!" How? Click
on this link to learn more
and to
contribute:
www.icanfoundation.info.
Sent from my BrailleNote
----- Original Message
-----
From: David Andrews <dandrews at visi.com
To: National Association of
Blind
Students
mailing list
<nabs-l at nfbnet.org
Date sent: Sun, 19 Jun 2011
20:39:01
-0500
Subject: Re: [nabs-l]
[Nfbnet-members-list]
Threw Our Eyes
interview,Ride into
History, Race
for
Independence, Wed. June
22, 8:00 pm EDT
Chris:
I don't want to friend
anyone -- but
I think
this is a terrible
idea! Remember the ACB
split off
from
the NFB because they
thought
that we were all wrong, did
our
business in
the wrong way etc. I
am
not going to say that we
can't learn
anything
from the ACB, but
not a
history lesson. I was at
a ACb
National
Convention a few years
ago
-- and heard the NFB
attacked openly
and
indirectly. These folks
are
not our friends. We can
work
jointly at
times, and should, and I
don't think we should be
against
them, for
the sake of it, as
some of
my old-timer friends are --
but a
joint
conference call on
consideration of a change
to a NFB
division
bylaw is going to
far!
Dave
At 12:53 PM 6/19/2011, you
wrote:
Kirt,
I have a friend in the
Council that
I will
see Monday night, so I
plan to give this idea to
him and
ask if he
knows someone in the
Council that would be
knowledgeable
enough
and willing to attend
this call on behalf of the
Council
as an
expert on their history.
Maybe it would be better if
someone
like me
moderated. Keep in
mind
that I did volunteer, but
I'm not
degrading
anyone else, I'm just
using myself as an example
here.
I'm a
member of the Federation,
but I'm not a hard-line
"NFB is
good, ACB
bad" person, so I
wouldn't
show any bias to NFB or
ACB. I
also am
not currently a
contributing
(due-paying) member of
NABS, so I'm
not a
leader in it of
course. That way, we
wouldn't have
any
bias.
I think it would be easy to
have it
jointly
attended even if it's
an
official NABS call. If we
have a
representative of ACB on the
call,
we could probably easily
get other
members of
ACB on the call to
kind of back up or add to
that
guest
speaker's information.
Thoughts?
Chris
"A loss of sight, never a
loss of
vision!"
(Camp Abilities motto)
To learn more about Camp
Abilities
and find a
local camp near
you,
just click on this link to
their
national Web
site:
www.campabilities.org.
The I C.A.N. Foundation
helps
visually
impaired youth in
Maryland
have the ability to
confidently say
"I can!"
How? Click on this
link
to learn more and to
contribute:
www.icanfoundation.info.
Sent from my BrailleNote
----- Original Message
-----
From: Kirt Manwaring <kirt.crazydude at gmail.com
To: National Association of
Blind
Students
mailing list
<nabs-l at nfbnet.org
Date sent: Sun, 19 Jun 2011
00:45:08
-0600
Subject: Re: [nabs-l]
[Nfbnet-members-list]
Threw Our Eyes
interview,Ride into
History, Race
for
Independence, Wed. June
22, 8:00 pm EDT
Carley,
The two organizations
don't
really claim to be "friends" as
such-it
seems like now they just
mostly
ignore each
other, work jointly
when
their agendas converge and
play
politics when
they don't. Maybe
they
aren't enemies, but the
official
organizations don't really
advertise
themselves as friends.
While it would be
great to
have people from both organizations
participate in a joint
call, I don't
see it
happening. Here's
hoping
though, I guess It's
certainly a
nice
thought-although, if the
call
were to have presentations
from
members of
both organizations, it
probably should be jointly
moderated
and
attended. The NFB (or
probably even NABS) would,
I'm
betting, not
be inclined to go
there.
So maybe we'll have better
luck
going through
unnoficial channels
and
setting this up on our
own? No
need to
make it an official event
for
either the Federation or
the
Council-I think
it's safe to say
that
idea was doomed to fail
before it
was brought
up.
Best,
Kirt
On 6/18/11, Chris Nusbaum
<dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com
wrote:
And, as I said before, I
would be
very
willing to moderate this
call. Please keep me
posted!
Chris
"A loss of sight, never a
loss of
vision!"
(Camp Abilities motto)
To learn more about Camp
Abilities
and find a
local camp near
you, just click on this
link to
their
national Web site:
www.campabilities.org.
The I C.A.N. Foundation
helps
visually
impaired youth in
Maryland have the ability
to
confidently say
"I can!" How? Click
on this link to learn more
and to
contribute:
www.icanfoundation.info.
Sent from my
BrailleNote
----- Original
Message
-----
From: Ignasi Cambra <ignasicambra at gmail.com
To: National Association of
Blind
Students
mailing list
<nabs-l at nfbnet.org
Date sent: Sat, 18 Jun 2011
18:51:04
-0400
Subject: Re: [nabs-l]
[Nfbnet-members-list]
Threw Our Eyes
interview,Ride into
History, Race
for
Independence, Wed. June
22, 8:00 pm EDT
This call would be very
interesting
indeed. If representatives
from both organizations are
willing
to
participate, it can really
be productive in many
ways.
On Jun 18, 2011, at 1:46
PM, Carly
Mihalakis
wrote:
Good morning, list,
A few days ago,
someone on
the NABS list suggested a
conference
call bringing clarity to a
younger
generation. What, exactly, is
the history of the
ideological
parting of
ways, between the
Federation and the Council?
Does
anybody know
today, the history
of this division or is it a
product
of sheer
habit as is the case
with Republicans and
Democrats? If
such a
meeting of both
entities were to take
place, There
ought to
be representation of
both organizations so
that a
wholistic
portrait of this issue
can be exercised.
and its split from
the
ACB. This seems like a productive and
enlightening discussion but
I
wonder, if the
Federation and the
council claim to be
friends, should
there not
be representation
from both sides,
identifying
their position and whereabouts
they stand, in this? At
---- Original Message
------
From: "Joe Ruffalo"
<nfbnj at yahoo.com
(by way of David
Andrews<dandrews at visi.com>)
Subject:
[Nfbnet-members-list] Thru Our Eyes
interview,
Ride
into History,Race for
Independence,
Wed. June 22, 8:00 pm EDT
Date sent: Fri, 17 Jun
2011
19:26:45 -0500
Save The Date:
On Wednesday, June
22,at
8:00 pm eastern, Thru Our Eyes host,
Joe
Ruffalo will
interview
Parnell Diggs, chair of the Imagination
Fund,
Race for
Independence.
The interview will
highlight
current and past grants awarded to
state
affiliates and
chapters.
In addition, featured
will
be Imaginators who will share the
methods
to make the ask to
make a
difference in changing what it means
to be blind.
Special highlight of
the
interview will be the announcement of
the 30
winners who will have
the
opportunity to be driven by a blind
driver
while attending
the national
convention in
Orlando.
Witness the
opportunity to
ride into history!
To watch and listen to
the
interview, please visit the
following:
<http://www.thruoureyes.org>www.thruoureyes.org
For JAWS users and
mobile
phone users, please visit the
following:
m.thruoureyes.org
Other options to watch
or
listen can be found on the sites
listed above.
To call in with
comments or
questions, please dial the
following:
1 888 572 0141
Join us to Make a
Difference!
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