[nabs-l] [Nfbnet-members-list] Threw Our Eyes interview, Ride into History, Race for Independence, Wed. June 22, 8:00 pm EDT

Mon Jun 27 15:54:49 UTC 2011

Good point! As a conservative (but a level-headed one,) I agree.  
But let's stop the political stuff (that is, the political stuff 
that doesn't have anything to do with blindness) before we get 
too far into it on the list.  Dave's probably worried now! :)

 Chris

"A loss of sight, never a loss of vision!" (Camp Abilities motto)
To learn more about Camp Abilities and find a local camp near 
you, just click on this link to their national Web site: 
www.campabilities.org.

The I C.A.N.  Foundation helps visually impaired youth in 
Maryland have the ability to confidently say "I can!" How? Click 
on this link to learn more and to contribute: 
www.icanfoundation.info or like us on Facebook at I C.A.N.  
Foundation.

Join me on Facebook: Search for Christopher Nusbaum!

 Sent from my BrailleNote

 ----- Original Message -----
From: Kirt Manwaring <kirt.crazydude at gmail.com
To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list 
<nabs-l at nfbnet.org
Date sent: Sun, 26 Jun 2011 10:05:38 -0600
Subject: Re: [nabs-l] [Nfbnet-members-list] Threw Our Eyes 
interview,Ride into History, Race for Independence, Wed.  June 
22, 8:00 pm EDT

Chris,
  One more thing.  I'm about to make a political statement so get
ready- I wouldn't, except this is very much a political issue.  
Here
goes.  The government shouldn't be in the business of providing
luxuries.  I suspect most level-headed Americans, both Liberal 
and
Conservative, agree with me there, so I'm not trying to start a
political debate.  All I'm saying is, when we demand and get 
something
that we don't really need, it's a slippery slope.  What will we 
demand
next?  Where do we draw the line between something that would be 
nice
and something we can't do without?  I think the disagreement here 
is
different blind people draw that line in different places-some 
say we
can't do without the accessible currency, others say it's not a
necessity.  How do you personally decide what is something you 
think
the blind community needs versus something that would be useful 
but
not critical?
  Best,
Kirt

On 6/26/11, Kirt Manwaring <kirt.crazydude at gmail.com> wrote:
 Chris,
   I know it's going to happen.  I wish it wasn't, but it will 
and I'm
 optomistic it will be something beneficial.  I'm just concerned 
about
 the mentality this fosters-lots of us already think we're 
entitled to
 get everything in the whole dang world without working for it, 
what's
 next?  Don't get me wrong, we need things accessible, money, as 
I
 think has been demonstrated over and over again, is already 
accessible
 to us if we know how to handle it.  We don't even need 
technology like
 an iBill or LookTell app, and 99 times out of 100, I might even 
say
 999 times out of 1000, we'll be fine.  Sighted people are 
playing by
 pretty much the same odds-what with fraud and ponzie schemes and 
so
 forth.  Don't get me wrong, I'll take advantage of the usability 
of
 the new money as much as anyone else.  But I'm getting a little
 frustrated with blind people demanding things we don't really 
need and
 acting like it's an unalienable right to get whatever we want.
   Best,
 Kirt

 On 6/26/11, Chris Nusbaum <dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com> wrote:
 Kirt,

 I say "take it when you can get it!" We're debating something
 that's going to happen anyway, which is fine, but the accessible
 currency is still going to be made no matter what we say.  ACB
 won the case.  Even if it is a luxury, let's take that luxury
 when we can get it!

  Chris

 "A loss of sight, never a loss of vision!" (Camp Abilities 
motto)
 To learn more about Camp Abilities and find a local camp near
 you, just click on this link to their national Web site:
 www.campabilities.org.

 The I C.A.N.  Foundation helps visually impaired youth in
 Maryland have the ability to confidently say "I can!" How? Click
 on this link to learn more and to contribute:
 www.icanfoundation.info or like us on Facebook at I C.A.N.
 Foundation.

 Join me on Facebook: Search for Christopher Nusbaum!

  Sent from my BrailleNote

  ----- Original Message -----
 From: Kirt Manwaring <kirt.crazydude at gmail.com
 To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
 <nabs-l at nfbnet.org
 Date sent: Sat, 25 Jun 2011 08:52:02 -0600
 Subject: Re: [nabs-l] [Nfbnet-members-list] Threw Our Eyes
 interview,Ride into History, Race for Independence, Wed.  June
 22, 8:00 pm EDT

 Car,
   That was two words.  ;)  I know I'm a jerk.
   I still think the cost is too high.  If the government is 
going
 to
 spend millions of dollars that don't need to be spent (nothing
 new
 there), I can honestly think of more ways they could do it.  How
 a
 bout just cut every blind person in America a check for a
 thousand
 dollars?  That would be cheaper than replacing all the cash out
 there
 with newer bills of different size, or with tactile marks, or
 whatever.  And, honestly, I'd probably get more use out of it.
   Best,
 Kirt

 On 6/24/11, Carly Mihalakis <carlymih at earthlink.net> wrote:

  Hi, Arielle,

  In a word it is absolutely, worth it!
  Yet, if people in power are reluctant to change existiing
  infrastructure then divices needed to discern, individual
 currency,
  ought to be FREE in the name of total equality.
  for today,
  Car
  :25 PM 6/24/2011, Arielle Silverman wrote:
 Hi all,
 I think there is a difference between having currency designed a
 certain way from the get-go, and having to change what has
 already
 been designed.  So comparing India which has had identifiable
 currency
 since it became independent with the situation in the U.S.  
which
 would
 have to redesign the money from scratch is not really
 appropriate.  I
 agree that having bills be identifiable by touch is useful for
 many
 reasons, both for the blind and the sighted.  But is it worth 
the
 cost
 of having to redesign what has already been created?
 Arielle

 On 6/24/11, Anmol Bhatia <anmolpbhatia at yahoo.com> wrote:

  Kirt,
  I am not sure, but I would guess that the current system of
 Indian
  currency
  has been in place since independence in 1947 before any vending
 machines
  or
  ATM were invented.  True it is not fair for millions of sighted
  individuals
  to have to pay and adjust to accessible currency: redesigning
 ATM and
  vending machines, replacing the cash they already have which
 individuals
  have to do every 7 years I believe or whenever a new note comes
 out; but
  if
  we allow the fairness arguement for the sighted keep us from
 advancing
  our
  goals to create opportunities and bring greater independence 
for
 the
  blind
  we would never achieve anything.  If we used the fairness
 arguement as
  you
  described, it is not fair for millions of businesses to be
  mandated to build
  ramps or have elevaters so that hand full of persons
  in  wheelchair can have
  equal access, but do we live and do we want to live in a 
society
 where
  only
  majority have access and opportunity to life because making
   adjustments or baring cost associated to bringing the 
necessary
 changes
  to
  make certain aspects of life accessible  is unfair to the
  majority, or do we
  want a society where people are willing to adjust and bare cost
 so that
  their fellow citizens who happen to be blind or disabled can
 have equal
  opportunities and rights as them? If we take the fairness
 arguement,
  then
  the Americans with Disabilities ACT (ADA) is unconstitutional
 and
  it was the
  main reason why many businesses were opposed to it.  
Redesigning
  the currency
  may cause inconvenience at first, but like Europe it will soon
 be a part
  of
  life and an adjustment that many do not have any problems.  
Many
 sighted
  people have asked me why is the currency not accessible? Many
  sighted people
  who I talk to about this do not seem to mind baring the cost 
and
 the
  little
  inconvenience associated with doing this in order to bring
 greater
  opportunity and equality to the million or so blind 
individuals.

  best
  Anmol

  I seldom think about my limitations, and they never make me 
sad.
 Perhaps
  there is just a touch of yearning at times; but it is vague,
 like a
  breeze
  among flowers.
  Hellen Keller

  --- On Fri, 6/24/11, Kirt Manwaring <kirt.crazydude at gmail.com
 wrote:

  From: Kirt Manwaring <kirt.crazydude at gmail.com
  Subject: Re: [nabs-l] [Nfbnet-members-list] Threw Our Eyes
 interview,
  Ride
  into History, Race for Independence, Wed.  June 22, 8:00 pm EDT
  To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
  <nabs-l at nfbnet.org
  Date: Friday, June 24, 2011, 8:48 PM
  Anmol,
    I didn't say India doesn't have a lot of
  infrastructure.  I just
  think the US, all told, has more that would need to be
  replaced.  I'd
  be interested to know if India's currency has been of
  different sizes
  ever since India became in independent country in 1948.
    Just think of it this way.  How many times do
  you see an ATM in a
  convenience store, bank, hotel, hospital, airport or
  supermarket?  If
  we made our currency different sizes, or added tactile
  marks, all
  those hundreds of thousands of ATMS would have to be
  replaced.  I'm
  sure Europe had that problem adopting the euro, but it was
  worth the
  cost for most people involved.  It's not fair to the
  however many
  million sighted Americans out there to make them replace
  all their
  ATMS, vending machines, cash they already have, etc.
  But, like I
  said, since it's going to happen anyway, I hope they pull
  off
  something that will work.
    Best,
  Kirt

  On 6/24/11, Anmol Bhatia <anmolpbhatia at yahoo.com
  wrote:
  Kirt,
  Actually there is a large infrastructure in India.  The
  thing is that
  identifiable currency has just become a part of life
  and I don't think it
  was ever intended to be accessable for the blind when
  it was designed.  So
  why was the Indian currency designed in different
  sizes? I am not sure, but
  the sighted and blind have benefited from it alike and
  cost to do this can
  not be that high since there are not many resources
  and frankly it is hard
  to get Indian politicians to do anything good for
  people with disabilities
  is rare.  Perfect example of what can be possible in
  the US.
  Anmol

  I seldom think about my limitations, and they never
  make me sad.  Perhaps
  there is just a touch of yearning at times; but it is
  vague, like a breeze
  among flowers.
  Hellen Keller

  --- On Fri, 6/24/11, Kirt Manwaring <kirt.crazydude at gmail.com
  wrote:

  From: Kirt Manwaring <kirt.crazydude at gmail.com
  Subject: Re: [nabs-l] [Nfbnet-members-list] Threw
  Our Eyes interview, Ride
  into History, Race for Independence, Wed.  June 22,
  8:00 pm EDT
  To: "National Association of Blind Students
  mailing list"
  <nabs-l at nfbnet.org
  Date: Friday, June 24, 2011, 7:14 PM
  Anmol,
    I should never say I'm leaving-people always
  say
  stuff and I can't
  stay away.  Here's the thing about India.  As
  large as the population
  is (massive!), there's not near the infrastructure
  to
  replace.  I hope
  that will change as India's economy becomes more
  and more
  developed
  and the middle class gets larger but, as it stands
  now, I
  think doing
  this in the US would be a lot harder than in India
  because
  of all the
  machinery that would need to be redone.
    Best,
  Kirt

  On 6/24/11, Anmol Bhatia <anmolpbhatia at yahoo.com
  wrote:
  Kirt,
  The population of UK may be five times less
  then US,
  but the population of
  my country of India is 1 billion  almost
  three
  times more then the US and
  still we have currency wich can be
  identifiable by the
  blind.  So if India
  can make the transition without a problem,
  then it
  should not be that
  difficult for the US.

  Anmol

  I seldom think about my limitations, and they
  never
  make me sad.  Perhaps
  there is just a touch of yearning at times;
  but it is
  vague, like a breeze
  among flowers.
  Hellen Keller

  --- On Thu, 6/23/11, Kirt Manwaring <kirt.crazydude at gmail.com
  wrote:

  From: Kirt Manwaring <kirt.crazydude at gmail.com
  Subject: Re: [nabs-l]
  [Nfbnet-members-list] Threw
  Our Eyes interview, Ride
  into History, Race for Independence, Wed.
  June 22,
  8:00 pm EDT
  To: "National Association of Blind
  Students
  mailing list"
  <nabs-l at nfbnet.org
  Date: Thursday, June 23, 2011, 10:49 PM
  Carley,
    Cool!  I've never been a science
  guy.  I'm
  going to straite my brain
  and leave the list for a couple days.
  Enjoy,
  everyone.

  On 6/23/11, Carly Mihalakis <carlymih at earthlink.net
  wrote:

  Hi, Kurt,

  As I understand it, a muscle
  striates when it
  is
  active.  If
  therefore, a law, procedure or
  cultural norm
  striates,
  it flexes its
  muscle, thus changing states.
  Have fun, Kurt!
  Car23/2011, you wrote:
 Carly,
    I'm not exactly sure what
  a
  striation is.  The NFBwas opposed to
 such a measure, and I think they
  were
  right to be
  against it for
 reasons I've already mentioned.
  But,
  after
  the federal court judge
 decided to side with the ACB, the
  NFB
  decided,
  rightly, that it may as
 well be a part of the process
  since it was
  going to
  happen anyway.  I
 don't really see the harm in
  this, do
  you?
    Best,
 Kirt

 On 6/23/11, Carly Mihalakis
  <carlymih at earthlink.net
  wrote:

  Good morning, Kirt,

           'Seems to
  me though, that one ought to be able to
  determine
  shades of their own
  reality, which
  is how I
  understand the Federation
  wants its members, to
  conduct
  themselves, in
  the world.  Yet, beyond
  the elaborate striations
  the
  existing system
  will need to experience,
  if such a change were to be
  made,
  how come
  the Federation
  didn't  speak up when it
  was asked,
  by
  the Mint last time that entity
  produced curency?
  :
 Carly,
    We all make
  mistakes.  No worries.
    Now, just for the
  heck
  of it, I'd like to address a point I
  think
 you made earlier.  (I'm
  only
  guessing, because my gmail wouldn't read
 the whole message to
  me)  But I
  think
  you said something like this.
 "The federation is kind
  of
  hypocritical
  because they rap ad noseum
 about independence but
  are stuck
  relying
  on sighted people to help
 them-depending on
  another person
  isn't
  independence at all!"  If I'm
 off the mark, I'm sorry,
  but I
  can see you
  saying something like that
 so it's just my guess of
  what you
  said
  from the little bit gmail was
 able to read me.
    Here's the thing
  about
  that.  Independence does not mean do
 everything by yourself
  all the
  time.
  It simply means you can do what
 you want to, when you
  want to do
  it, in a
  way that's efficient and
 works for you.  It
  means,
  basically,
  that you aren't subject to
 another person's vision
  of your
  life, you
  do things the way you wish
 to do them.  It also
  means you
  do
  this without really making anyone
 else go much out of
  their way to
  help
  you.
    So think of it
  this
  way.  Every store already has a sighted
  worker,
 most of those will be
  honest,
  almost all
  will be honest with other
 people watching.  If
  you ask
  that
  person "hey, what's this bill you're
 handing me?" that's in
  no way
  compromising
  your independence.  Using
 technology is better
  because it
  takes away
  the outside chance that
 someone's trying to pull
  off some
  funny
  business but, without the
 technology, you're still
  probably
  safe
  most of the time.  As we've
 seen already from other
  posts,
  nothing is
  fool proof.
    But back to
  independence
  and philosophy and stuff.  Have you
  ever
 used a reader?  If you
  have,
  you're
  using another person, who's
 chosing to do something
  they
  don't have to
  do; either they get money
 or they don't, but it
  works
  because you
  get the job done and you
 aren't forcing them to
  do it for
  you.  They chose to provide their
 time to read you
  something-you
  aren't
  making them do anything.  Have
 you ever used a sighted
  guide?
  I do,
  all the time.  (I'm starting to
 less and less just to
  keep my
  cane skills
  up but sometimes it's just
 the most efficient way
  to get
  stuff
  done.)  You can get somewhere
 independently and use a
  sighted
  guide, as
  long as you're getting there
 on your terms and you
  could do it
  without
  a guide there.
    See what I'm
  saying?  Independent and interdependent
  aren't
  mutually
 exclusive.
    Best,
 Kirt

 On 6/23/11, Carly
  Mihalakis
  <carlymih at earthlink.net
  wrote:

  'Morning, Kurt,

  'Guess I really blew it for myuy self
  with all
  those I'd
  say
  off the wall
  comments,
  about the
  Ibill.

  Now a truth
  immerges which
  I failed
  to state clearly, before.

  'was confused with
  the
  NoteTeller 2
  which, experience has shown me is
  unreliable, at
  best.
  Carly even the
  person
  showing
  them
  couild not
  make them work.
  It's
  interesting
  however
  that folks on this List have found good
  luck
  with
  them.

  Carwrote:
 That
  is your
  experience
  -- mine is that the iBill works quite
  well
 -- and
  I think
  others
  have found this to be true too.

 Dave

 At
  05:08 PM
  6/22/2011,
  you wrote:

 Hi,
  Hamberto and all
  interested folks,

 Truth be
  known, my
  common law husband and I had the I bill,

 courtesy of
  rehab
  but, after repeated attempts to make the
  thing

 identify
  paper
  currency, we ascertained it a genuine
  piece of

  shit

 and is not
  worth
  anything, so I submit that the
  manufacturers

  must
 be
  well
  aware of
  their having themselves a niche market,
  in blind

 people and
  the deep
  pocketed agencies who tend to support
  them,

  so

 are
  totally
  exploiting it in the manner of any
  Capitalist
  aware

  of

 the
  exisstance of a
  small and needy marketplace.

 So, in
  essence,
  don't waste your's or rehab's  time with
  the I

 bill! 02:11
  PM
  6/22/2011, you wrote:

 Hello,
  but what
  happens if I have a bill in my hand and I
  want

  to

  know

  what

 it is,
  but there
  is not a single sighted soul to tell me
  what it

  is? I

  know

 is a
  free
  alternative but, is it truly worth it?
  And, what
  if

  that

  sighted

 person
  lies
  about the amount of money that is on the
  bill?

 I would
  probably
  support ideas like the KNFB reader and
  the

  iBill

  identifier

 if they
  were
  even cheaper.  If they were so, I would
  buy one or

  the

  other,

 but so
  far, I
  can not afford either one.

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 --
 Arielle Silverman
 President, National Association of Blind Students
 Phone:  602-502-2255
 Email:
 nabs.president at gmail.com
 Website:
 www.nabslink.org

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