[nabs-l] New Technology and Blindness

Thu May 5 02:38:56 UTC 2011

Kirt,

While you're working to get those accessible ATM's, there is such a 
thing as using a bank teller or getting cash back at a store when 
making a purchase. I find these methods much better than having someone 
read me the ATM most of the time.

As for your assertion about us never being on an equal footing with the 
sighted, I disagree wholeheartedly. Yes, there will probably be 
accessibility barriers for quite some time, but that doesn't 
necessarily mean that we're unequal to our sighted peers. You've been 
saying all along that we need to find work-arounds where necessary, and 
that's what makes that equality really happen for us regardless of what 
technology does. In other words, it's our problem-solving skills that 
make us equal to the sighted and have been doing so for some time. It's 
also our expectations for ourselves that we do what the sighted do in 
terms of work, social behavior, etc. But there are times when doing 
what the sighted do necessitates some adaptation because, as Mike 
pointed out, we haven't been able to work around some problem. This 
isn't special treatment, nor is it asking the world to bend over 
backward for us. This isn't about entitlement versus a "pull yourself 
up by the boot straps" mentality. I hate to break it to you Kirt, but 
the world doesn't work in those kinds of extremes. Most of the time, 
it's a gray area we all have to navigate, and we're all doing the best 
we can given what we've got. And yes, by and large, I think society is 
trying to work with us. Society, by and large, loves to create 
solutions to make our world more accessible. The problem is that 
they're going about it the wrong way by thinking of things we don't 
need rather than working with us on things we do need. So the intent is 
there, but the good sense isn't.

Respectfully,
Jedi

Original message:
> Jedi,
>   Yeah-that does make a lot of sense.  I agree with most of what
> you're saying, I think.  And that's really aweful about your bank
> account, were you able to get the money back?
>   But, the thing is, not all ATMs talk.  Even though that's a legal
> requirement, under the ADA, in my experience maybe 1 in 3 ATM machines
> actually let me plug in headphones and do my business in private.
> Should it be that way?  Of course not-both legally andmorally.  (in
> this case)  But it is and, even though I've called my bank and
> politely asked them to do something about the issue, it's still a few
> months down the line...and that's just my bank, I know lots of others
> that don't have speech access software on any ATM.  So what do we do
> about it in the meantime?  Not withdraw our money?  Spend hours and
> hours on end complaining about how we're entitled to a right we don't
> have?  I'd rather spend the time figuring out a way to work within the
> system, as it stands now, so I can do what I need to do.  I'm not
> saying we don't push for equal access, we should.  But It's more
> important to figure out how to work within a system that will never be
> equal.  If that means I have to go with a roommate or family member
> who I trust to withdraw money, even baring in mind the unfortunate
> experience you had, so be it.  I wish I didn't have to, but I do, for
> now.
>   But I see your point and it's a good one.  I find myself concurring
> with you on this one, at least with your last email.  But I think it's
> important to realize we're not entitled to society going out of their
> way to make sure we can keep up.  It's our responsibility to adapt and
> find ways to accomplish what we need to because, let's face it, we'll
> never be on equal footing with our sighted peers.  Blindness is a
> disability (call it an inconvenience if you like) and it brings with
> it many annoyances and problems to work around-and those problems will
> never go away.  So rather than ask "what can the world do to
> accommodate us?" I think it's better to ask "how can we adapt to the
> world?"  I'm a little concerned by the mentality that we're entitled
> to all this stuff, all this money (how many of us actually pay our own
> tuition?  I know not me and I feel a little guilty about it.), all
> this extra technology and all this extra consideration to make the
> world more fair for us.  Do we want equality, or do we want special
> treatment?  They aren't the same thing.
>   Warmest regards,
> Kirt

> On 5/4/11, Jedi <loneblindjedi at samobile.net> wrote:
>> Kirt,

>> I think the bottom line for me is this: can I do what I need to do in a
>> manner that's convenient for me and everyone else around me? Goes back
>> to that "Nature of Independence," doesn't it? You're right that not
>> every technology is going to be accessible to us and that we will have
>> to make work-arounds. No problem. We could say, going back to our "If
>> the world went sighted" discussion, that if nothing else, blindness
>> does encourage the development of problem-solving skills. Most of the
>> time, getting help, if that's what's needed, is perfectly acceptable
>> and sometimes easier or more convenient. For example, I personally find
>> that I'd rather be checked in by a human than the touchscreens because
>> it seems to me that touchscreen kiosks are kind of complicated (not the
>> technology, but the systems they run on) when it may be just as easy to
>> have an agent (or easier) check me in. And for now, that's fine given
>> that many airlines still have agents that can do that for anyone. But
>> for those airlines that don't even have agents, that's a problem. Sure,
>> you could work around it by checking in online (and that's probably not
>> a bad idea), but you may have instances where that is not possible for
>> whatever reason. So it really is inconvenient to the self and others to
>> track down the help you need and then find a way to get rid of them
>> politely so you can go about your business and let them get back to
>> theirs. the same issue goes for grocery lines.

>> Here's where I draw the line though. I, generally speaking, refuse to
>> allow anyone to help me at an ATM unless I absolutely know they can be
>> trusted. There are few people I would entrust with this task, and none
>> of them are members of my family. I have had a bad experience with
>> someone who helped me: my sister stole money from my bank account when
>> she helped me with an aTM. Long story short, i became very wary of
>> assistance in this matter. So for things like that, I believe it's a
>> right of privacy that's at stake here, and everyone ought to have to
>> have that right whether they belong to the majority or not. Same with
>> voting. I personally prefer the privacy that comes with an accessible
>> vote than entrusting my vote to someone who may or may not agree with
>> me acting as a reader. If everyone else in the country has the right to
>> a private vote, so do I. Now, if I choose to have someone read my
>> ballot to me anyway, that's my choice, but I still have that right to
>> privacy thanks to the HAVA.

>> Does any of this make sense?

>> Respectfully,
>> Jedi

>> Original message:
>>> To all,
>>>   Here's my take...and, because I enjoy being an argumentative pain in
>>> the neck, I'm going to enjoy this.  :)  But before I start, I want to
>>> make it perfectly clear that I'm absolutely for the Technology Bill of
>>> Rights, making new technology accessible ought to be a legal right,
>>> and we are at a disadvantage when technology, like the touch screens
>>> Ashley mentioned are being put in store checkout lines, is used.
>>>   But we need to remember we are a minority and the majority of the
>>> population shouldn't bend over backwards to accomodate us.  While
>>> having all new technology come to us perfectly accessible is a
>>> laudable goal, it's probably never going to totally be realized.
>>> Should we have the right?  Absolutely.  Will we ever have it totally?
>>> Probably not...even with the Technology bill of rights, this dream of
>>> Universal Design will probably never be totally realized.  That
>>> doesn't mean we don't work towards it-it just means we need to learn
>>> how to live in a world where there are inconveniences we have to deal
>>> with.  We may have to stand in lines instead of using the independent
>>> self checkout-deal with it.  We may need to get a reader if our
>>> textbooks aren't accessible-too bad.  We may need to get assistance
>>> using keosks in the airport-I'm terribly sorry, that's life.  e maybe
>>> might even have to go with a trusted family member or friend when
>>> using an ATM...what a terrible tragedy!  I can't believe we're so
>>> mistreated, abused, ignored, neglected, forgotten, and treated like
>>> crap by the rest of the evil sighted world that doesn't even give a
>>> damn about us!  Life is aweful!  This new technology isn't
>>> accessible-woe is me, we're
>>> dooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooomed!  Noone even
>>> cares about us!  This is a terrible, terrible, no-good world we live
>>> in, because we need to get people to help us use touch
>>> screens...whatever are we going to do?
>>>   Now of course that was an exhageration, and I certainly want
>>> technology to be accessible.  But rather than spend so much time
>>> complaining about it, let's do our best to get around the
>>> inaccessibility and live our lives!  I'm all for pushing to make this
>>> new technology independently usable...but it's probably never going to
>>> totally happen, deal with it.  There will always be inconveniences and
>>> annoyences associated with being blind-get used to it.  The world will
>>> never perfectly cater to our every whim, get over it.
>>>   Warmest regards,
>>> Kirt

>>> On 5/2/11, humberto <humbertoa5369 at netzero.net> wrote:
>>>> Sorry, but your message came out blank: Subject: Re: [Nabs-l] New
>>>> Technology And blindness, sent on Sonday may 1, 2011 at 9:33 AM

>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>> From: Chris Nusbaum <dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com
>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing
>>>> list<nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>> Date sent: Sun, 01 May 2011 09:33:12 -0400
>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] New Technology and Blindness

>>>>> _______________________________________________
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