[nabs-l] New Technology and Blindness

Thu May 5 03:40:12 UTC 2011

Jedi,
  Fair enough-you use bank tellers or get cash back at a store, I use
friends I trust at an atm...either way works.
  As for equality and entitlement-what I should've said was we'll
never have equal access.  By the time touch screen accessibility comes
around, there'll be some other inaccessible technology we have to
worry about-when that's accessible, something else inaccessible will
come along ad noseum.  So we'll always be fighting an uphill battle
and, in that way, we'll never be equal.  That's what I meant.
Unfortunately, the world's structured so that those with greater
problem solving skills have a greater chance to succeed-it's true for
sighted people and especially true for us.  So, because we'll have to
solve problems the sighted won't have to, we're not on an equal
footing and we never will be.  That means, as sad as this is, that an
average blind person has to have an above-average ability to solve
problems in order to work an average job-which is probably the biggest
reason our unemployment rate is so high.  That doesn't mean we can't
compete on terms of equality-it just means we have to work damn hard
to do so, thus making us not equal with our sighted peers.  While
blindness _can_ be reduced to a mere nuisence with propper training,
the fact that we need to get training because of our blindness in
order for blindness to only be an inconvenience shows that we aren't
equal with the sighted world around us.  Yes, we can compete on equal
terms, although only a comparatively small percentage of us manage to
do it.  But blindness is a disability, often a disadvantage, and even
when reduced to a mere nuisence it can still be a royal pain in the
neck.  (so I'm told, I've not gotten all the training I need yet)
And, to be honest, based on the entitlement attitude I see in most of
my blind friends, I'm not really hopeful we'll ever, as a whole,
compete on equal terms with the sighted world.
  Warmest regards,
Kirt

On 5/4/11, Jedi <loneblindjedi at samobile.net> wrote:
> Kirt,
>
> While you're working to get those accessible ATM's, there is such a
> thing as using a bank teller or getting cash back at a store when
> making a purchase. I find these methods much better than having someone
> read me the ATM most of the time.
>
> As for your assertion about us never being on an equal footing with the
> sighted, I disagree wholeheartedly. Yes, there will probably be
> accessibility barriers for quite some time, but that doesn't
> necessarily mean that we're unequal to our sighted peers. You've been
> saying all along that we need to find work-arounds where necessary, and
> that's what makes that equality really happen for us regardless of what
> technology does. In other words, it's our problem-solving skills that
> make us equal to the sighted and have been doing so for some time. It's
> also our expectations for ourselves that we do what the sighted do in
> terms of work, social behavior, etc. But there are times when doing
> what the sighted do necessitates some adaptation because, as Mike
> pointed out, we haven't been able to work around some problem. This
> isn't special treatment, nor is it asking the world to bend over
> backward for us. This isn't about entitlement versus a "pull yourself
> up by the boot straps" mentality. I hate to break it to you Kirt, but
> the world doesn't work in those kinds of extremes. Most of the time,
> it's a gray area we all have to navigate, and we're all doing the best
> we can given what we've got. And yes, by and large, I think society is
> trying to work with us. Society, by and large, loves to create
> solutions to make our world more accessible. The problem is that
> they're going about it the wrong way by thinking of things we don't
> need rather than working with us on things we do need. So the intent is
> there, but the good sense isn't.
>
> Respectfully,
> Jedi
>
> Original message:
>> Jedi,
>>   Yeah-that does make a lot of sense.  I agree with most of what
>> you're saying, I think.  And that's really aweful about your bank
>> account, were you able to get the money back?
>>   But, the thing is, not all ATMs talk.  Even though that's a legal
>> requirement, under the ADA, in my experience maybe 1 in 3 ATM machines
>> actually let me plug in headphones and do my business in private.
>> Should it be that way?  Of course not-both legally andmorally.  (in
>> this case)  But it is and, even though I've called my bank and
>> politely asked them to do something about the issue, it's still a few
>> months down the line...and that's just my bank, I know lots of others
>> that don't have speech access software on any ATM.  So what do we do
>> about it in the meantime?  Not withdraw our money?  Spend hours and
>> hours on end complaining about how we're entitled to a right we don't
>> have?  I'd rather spend the time figuring out a way to work within the
>> system, as it stands now, so I can do what I need to do.  I'm not
>> saying we don't push for equal access, we should.  But It's more
>> important to figure out how to work within a system that will never be
>> equal.  If that means I have to go with a roommate or family member
>> who I trust to withdraw money, even baring in mind the unfortunate
>> experience you had, so be it.  I wish I didn't have to, but I do, for
>> now.
>>   But I see your point and it's a good one.  I find myself concurring
>> with you on this one, at least with your last email.  But I think it's
>> important to realize we're not entitled to society going out of their
>> way to make sure we can keep up.  It's our responsibility to adapt and
>> find ways to accomplish what we need to because, let's face it, we'll
>> never be on equal footing with our sighted peers.  Blindness is a
>> disability (call it an inconvenience if you like) and it brings with
>> it many annoyances and problems to work around-and those problems will
>> never go away.  So rather than ask "what can the world do to
>> accommodate us?" I think it's better to ask "how can we adapt to the
>> world?"  I'm a little concerned by the mentality that we're entitled
>> to all this stuff, all this money (how many of us actually pay our own
>> tuition?  I know not me and I feel a little guilty about it.), all
>> this extra technology and all this extra consideration to make the
>> world more fair for us.  Do we want equality, or do we want special
>> treatment?  They aren't the same thing.
>>   Warmest regards,
>> Kirt
>
>> On 5/4/11, Jedi <loneblindjedi at samobile.net> wrote:
>>> Kirt,
>
>>> I think the bottom line for me is this: can I do what I need to do in a
>>> manner that's convenient for me and everyone else around me? Goes back
>>> to that "Nature of Independence," doesn't it? You're right that not
>>> every technology is going to be accessible to us and that we will have
>>> to make work-arounds. No problem. We could say, going back to our "If
>>> the world went sighted" discussion, that if nothing else, blindness
>>> does encourage the development of problem-solving skills. Most of the
>>> time, getting help, if that's what's needed, is perfectly acceptable
>>> and sometimes easier or more convenient. For example, I personally find
>>> that I'd rather be checked in by a human than the touchscreens because
>>> it seems to me that touchscreen kiosks are kind of complicated (not the
>>> technology, but the systems they run on) when it may be just as easy to
>>> have an agent (or easier) check me in. And for now, that's fine given
>>> that many airlines still have agents that can do that for anyone. But
>>> for those airlines that don't even have agents, that's a problem. Sure,
>>> you could work around it by checking in online (and that's probably not
>>> a bad idea), but you may have instances where that is not possible for
>>> whatever reason. So it really is inconvenient to the self and others to
>>> track down the help you need and then find a way to get rid of them
>>> politely so you can go about your business and let them get back to
>>> theirs. the same issue goes for grocery lines.
>
>>> Here's where I draw the line though. I, generally speaking, refuse to
>>> allow anyone to help me at an ATM unless I absolutely know they can be
>>> trusted. There are few people I would entrust with this task, and none
>>> of them are members of my family. I have had a bad experience with
>>> someone who helped me: my sister stole money from my bank account when
>>> she helped me with an aTM. Long story short, i became very wary of
>>> assistance in this matter. So for things like that, I believe it's a
>>> right of privacy that's at stake here, and everyone ought to have to
>>> have that right whether they belong to the majority or not. Same with
>>> voting. I personally prefer the privacy that comes with an accessible
>>> vote than entrusting my vote to someone who may or may not agree with
>>> me acting as a reader. If everyone else in the country has the right to
>>> a private vote, so do I. Now, if I choose to have someone read my
>>> ballot to me anyway, that's my choice, but I still have that right to
>>> privacy thanks to the HAVA.
>
>>> Does any of this make sense?
>
>>> Respectfully,
>>> Jedi
>
>>> Original message:
>>>> To all,
>>>>   Here's my take...and, because I enjoy being an argumentative pain in
>>>> the neck, I'm going to enjoy this.  :)  But before I start, I want to
>>>> make it perfectly clear that I'm absolutely for the Technology Bill of
>>>> Rights, making new technology accessible ought to be a legal right,
>>>> and we are at a disadvantage when technology, like the touch screens
>>>> Ashley mentioned are being put in store checkout lines, is used.
>>>>   But we need to remember we are a minority and the majority of the
>>>> population shouldn't bend over backwards to accomodate us.  While
>>>> having all new technology come to us perfectly accessible is a
>>>> laudable goal, it's probably never going to totally be realized.
>>>> Should we have the right?  Absolutely.  Will we ever have it totally?
>>>> Probably not...even with the Technology bill of rights, this dream of
>>>> Universal Design will probably never be totally realized.  That
>>>> doesn't mean we don't work towards it-it just means we need to learn
>>>> how to live in a world where there are inconveniences we have to deal
>>>> with.  We may have to stand in lines instead of using the independent
>>>> self checkout-deal with it.  We may need to get a reader if our
>>>> textbooks aren't accessible-too bad.  We may need to get assistance
>>>> using keosks in the airport-I'm terribly sorry, that's life.  e maybe
>>>> might even have to go with a trusted family member or friend when
>>>> using an ATM...what a terrible tragedy!  I can't believe we're so
>>>> mistreated, abused, ignored, neglected, forgotten, and treated like
>>>> crap by the rest of the evil sighted world that doesn't even give a
>>>> damn about us!  Life is aweful!  This new technology isn't
>>>> accessible-woe is me, we're
>>>> dooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooomed!  Noone even
>>>> cares about us!  This is a terrible, terrible, no-good world we live
>>>> in, because we need to get people to help us use touch
>>>> screens...whatever are we going to do?
>>>>   Now of course that was an exhageration, and I certainly want
>>>> technology to be accessible.  But rather than spend so much time
>>>> complaining about it, let's do our best to get around the
>>>> inaccessibility and live our lives!  I'm all for pushing to make this
>>>> new technology independently usable...but it's probably never going to
>>>> totally happen, deal with it.  There will always be inconveniences and
>>>> annoyences associated with being blind-get used to it.  The world will
>>>> never perfectly cater to our every whim, get over it.
>>>>   Warmest regards,
>>>> Kirt
>
>>>> On 5/2/11, humberto <humbertoa5369 at netzero.net> wrote:
>>>>> Sorry, but your message came out blank: Subject: Re: [Nabs-l] New
>>>>> Technology And blindness, sent on Sonday may 1, 2011 at 9:33 AM
>
>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>> From: Chris Nusbaum <dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com
>>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing
>>>>> list<nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>>> Date sent: Sun, 01 May 2011 09:33:12 -0400
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] New Technology and Blindness
>
>
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