[nabs-l] Security in ourselves, acceptance in others
Kirt Manwaring
kirt.crazydude at gmail.com
Sat May 28 19:08:36 UTC 2011
Mike,
Fair enough. I was exhagerating a little. But I think we can take
the comparison too far if we aren't careful.
On 5/28/11, Mike Freeman <k7uij at panix.com> wrote:
> Kirt:
>
> I doubt there's a person in or out of the Federation that would say "the
> blind are just like African-americans". Methinks we're making a mountain out
> of a molehill here. What we've actually said was and is that we, the blind,
> are a minority in a social context as are also racial minorities, women,
> gays and lesbians and so on. We suffer many types of discrimination similar
> in many respects to the forms of discrimination these other mainorities
> suffer. That's quite different than saying we're just like other minorities.
> To some, this is splitting hairs but remember that our founding president
> was a lawyer! (grin)
>
> Mike
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf
> Of Kirt Manwaring
> Sent: Saturday, May 28, 2011 11:25 AM
> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Security in ourselves, acceptance in others
>
> Darian,
> I don't see anything wrong with using the comparison to prove a point-I
> do, however, see a lot wrong when people think our situations were exactly
> the same. To my knowledge, no leader in the blind civil rights movement has
> been assassinated. I'm not afraid I'll get linched by an angry mob when I
> go to Washington Seminar. I'm not worried I'll be grabbed in the middle of
> the night by the KKK and beaten to death because I'm a Federationist or, for
> that matter, because I'm blind.
> I'm not saying there aren't similarities; indeed, comparing the two
> situations can give us valuable insights sometimes. But whenever we start
> saying "we're just like these people because they went through so much
> abuse," I'm afraid we're starting to go down the slippery slope of
> entitlement and demanding superior access.
> Just my thoughts,
> Kirt
>
> On 5/28/11, Darian Smith <dsmithnfb at gmail.com> wrote:
>> Firstly,
>> I feel like someone being beatin down because they are a
>> federationest is no different than someone being beatin down because
>> they were a black panther, so to me while valid, it's different in
>> that it's a subsection of blind people, as the panthers were of
>> black people I don't doubt that people are unaware of all of what
>> went down that effected the blind americian expirience, as we are
>> largely unaware of alot of the minority expiriencesinour country.
>> Fact is that for the
>> sake of this comparison, blacks faced constent threats on their
>> lives, and even up until now they still do. I don't know how many
>> blind people have to worry about the police stopping them because
>> they "look like trouble". I don't write this to play "who has the
>> worst life", rather to say that some could find fault in the
>> comparison. For my part, I don't quite know if I agree with it at
>> this time.
>> Respectfully,
>> Darian
>>
>> On 5/28/11, Kirt Manwaring <kirt.crazydude at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Mike,
>>> In the African-american struggle for huma rights, there were/are
>>> lots of different philosophies and approaches taken by a lot of
>>> different people-you probably know more about that than me having
>>> lived through a lot of the craziness. Do you think more could've
>>> happened faster if...say, Martin Luther King and Malcolm X spent less
>>> time bickering and more time cooperating or, at the very least,
>>> ignoring each other? I'm not denying that both of them did a lot to
>>> better the condition of black people...but imagine what could've
>>> happened if the two of them didn't take so long to reconcile-or, if
>>> nothing else, if they didn't spend time attacking each others'
>>> philosophies and devoted that energy to their respective movements?
>>> Could that comparison be aplicable to us? Am I remiss when I say
>>> that we in NFB sometimes spend too much time attacking the
>>> philosophies of other blind people rather than advancing our own
>>> philosophy? Am I remiss in saying that many in the ACB spend more
>>> time trying to tear down the Federation instead of building up the
>>> Council? Why can't we, if nothing else, leave each other alone and
>>> spend all our time working on our own goals?
>>> Maybe we could take that comparison further, to incolude individual
>>> blind people who disagree with us. Ideally we should try to engage
>>> in constructive dialogue and find some sort of common ground with
>>> people who disagree and, for example, have next to no travel or daily
>>> living skills. After all, we hope they'll "see the light", so to
>>> speak, and become empowered with good training. But let's say they
>>> don't accept our philosophy...whether they're compitent blind people
>>> or not, let's say they want nothing to do with the Federation. I say
>>> first we try and learn whatever we can from them, no matter their
>>> skills and atitude (or lack thereof). Once we've learned something
>>> from them, even if it's as simple as "I need to have better cane
>>> skills" or "this guy has terrible hygiene-at least I know now why
>>> it's so important to take showers!", then I think we try and let them
>>> learn from us. That can either be by talking or by them looking at
>>> our example...if they chose to not accept our world view, there's no
>>> reason to get angry and defensive. There is still probably common
>>> ground somewhere and, even in the highly unlikely event you can't
>>> find any (which is probably due to you not looking hard enough), just
> ignore the person and move on.
>>> If we can't be friends, there's no reason to be enemies...live and
>>> let live, and all that jazz.
>>> Warmly,
>>> Kirt
>>>
>>> On 5/28/11, Mike Freeman <k7uij at panix.com> wrote:
>>>> I know of no site that has everything gathered in one place.
>>>> However, you could do worse than to read Dr. Floyd Matson's book,
>>>> "Walking Alone and marching together" (available on the NFB website
>>>> and via the NLS Web-braille
>>>> site) and, if you'd wish to see the alternative point-of-view, James
>>>> McGivern's "People of Vision: a History of the american Council of
>>>> the Blind", also available from the NLS Web-braille and BARD sites.
>>>>
>>>> It might also behoove us all to reread or re-listen-to the NFB
>>>> convention banquet speechdes of Drs. tenBroke, Jernigan and Maurer.
>>>>
>>>> I know that's a lot of reading but no one ever said Federationism
>>>> was easy!
>>>> (huge grin)
>>>>
>>>> Mike
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org]
>>>> On Behalf Of Josh Gregory
>>>> Sent: Saturday, May 28, 2011 10:07 AM
>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Security in ourselves, acceptance in others
>>>>
>>>> Is there a site with... the history of blind people and what they
>>>> went through? I'm curious now, this is a good thread.
>>>> Josh
>>>>
>>>> sent from my Apex
>>>> Email: joshkart12 at gmail.com
>>>>
>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>> From: "Mike Freeman" <k7uij at panix.com
>>>> To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'"
>>>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>> Date sent: Sat, 28 May 2011 09:52:47 -0700
>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Security in ourselves, acceptance in others
>>>>
>>>> Although I was never subject to one, I can still remember when, at
>>>> late as the 1960's, welfare workers conducted "night raids" with the
>>>> help of the police wherein said workers would visit blind clients
>>>> and go through their homes to make sure that nothing had been bought
>>>> that would indicate that the clients had unreported income. This
>>>> extended even to such items as a new dress.
>>>>
>>>> I echo Briley's sentiments that many today have no concept of what
>>>> went down in the past.
>>>>
>>>> Mike
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org
>>>> [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Briley Pollard
>>>> Sent: Saturday, May 28, 2011 7:28 AM
>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Security in ourselves, acceptance in others
>>>>
>>>> I think it is not always an appropriate comparison to say our
>>>> struggle for civil rights isn't completely parallel with the black
>>>> American experience, but we have struggled for civil rights. Go
>>>> read some history on how blind people have been treated by families
>>>> and institutions over the years. Blind children were targets for
>>>> sexual assault in extremely high numbers because they were
>>>> considered to be vulnerable. They were placed in horrific living
>>>> conditions throughout history in institutions because families
>>>> believed that blindness was equal to ineffectiveness, and that
>>>> they'd never be able to succeed or help out their relatives. As a
>>>> people group, we have suffered many indignities that I don't think
>>>> the current generation of blind people even come close to realizing.
>>>>
>>>> Best,
>>>> Briley
>>>> On May 28, 2011, at 1:23 AM, Darian Smith wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Mike:
>>>> African-Americans/blacks (however one choosses to term
>>>> themselves)would not have been too keen on the idea based upon how
>>>> they were treated by whites up to that time.
>>>> It is curious that how african-americans were treated is
>>>> always
>>>> one of the first ways we as blind people choose to make our
>>>> comparisons in our struggle for first-class citizanship. I wonder,
>>>> were blind people beatin and hosed down when they peacefully
>>>> protest the unjust ways they were treated? Were they lybnched?
>>>> Can we safely make those comparisons? unless I am missing
>>>> something (I could be, and it wouldn't be the first or last time I
>>>> have), we have some similarities with regards to civil rights, but
>>>> largely our histories were quite different and the scars,
>>>> deaths,risks were felt on largely different levels.
>>>> Just some thoughts on the matter,and I very much appreciate the
>>>> question.
>>>> Respectfully,
>>>> Darian
>>>>
>>>> On 5/26/11, Mike Freeman <k7uij at panix.com> wrote:
>>>> Darian:
>>>>
>>>> What do you think African-americans would have said during the
>>>> 1950's and 1960's had one of their number said he/she would rather
>>>> date a Caucasian person because of the concern for two black persons
>>>> dating?
>>>>
>>>> Mike
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org
>>>> [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Darian Smith
>>>> Sent: Thursday, May 26, 2011 5:49 PM
>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Security in ourselves, acceptance in others
>>>>
>>>> Jedi,
>>>> Sure-let me see...
>>>> We as federationests have certain ways that we like to deal with
>>>> situations, ways that we see life or phrase things in life. For
>>>> example We like to use the term "blind" as opposed to "visually
>>>> impaired" or any variant there of. We also like if a person uses
>>>> products with Braille on them (braille watches, braille compass,
>>>> braille books and the like, but somehow we tend to make people who
>>>> don't utilize these things seem lesser for not.
>>>> I have a friend who would much rather date a sighted gentleman
>>>> than a blind gentleman because she is concerned about the idea of
>>>> two blind people dating.
>>>> Personally I may feel a certain way about these things, but I
>>>> would like to think that it's huge to consider where each person
>>>> is in
>>>> their life and accept them into the fold as they are. I am
>>>> fine
>>>> with educatinn, so long as we arn't critical and that we are
>>>> accepting, because seems to me that weas people hate to be told
>>>> that we are "wrong"
>>>> for thinking like we do.
>>>> Does that make sense?
>>>> Respecgfully,
>>>> Darian
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On 5/26/11, Darian Smith <dsmithnfb at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> Very good points.
>>>> We as blind people are a minority, and I think it's good to
>>>> remember that there are other minorities out there. How does one
>>>> member of a minority group address another member of that same group
>>>> if they don't feel that this person is acting like they should in
>>>> public? Don't feel like this person is projecting a positive image
>>>> of the rest of that group to society?
>>>> I believe that we all face that problem and how we deal with it
>>>> varies, but I would hope that we know enough to not take it upon
>>>> ourselves to change the worlds opinions. I think we can model that
>>>> positive image that is with in our grasp to become, that probably is
>>>> the healthiest way to approach this idea of perception-changing
>>>> that we think about alot, Does that make sense?
>>>> thoughts?
>>>>
>>>> On 5/26/11, Jedi <loneblindjedi at samobile.net> wrote:
>>>> Excellent points.
>>>>
>>>> I'm going to add to that some.
>>>>
>>>> I've noticed that we also tend to judge a person's actions when
>>>> they attempt to handle a vexing situation like overhelpfulness or
>>>> discrimination. I've been doing some research on the effects of
>>>> such judgment and have concluded that it creates an invisible
>>>> audience for the blind person in question. This audience is made of
>>>> both the blind and the sighted community and creates thoughts like
>>>> "What will my blind friends and colleagues think of me if I react
>>>> this or that way?
>>>> What will the sighted person I'm talking to think? What will
>>>> sighted bystanders think?" What this does is create a win/lose
>>>> situation where the stakes are high. Aside from causing stress that
>>>> limits problem-solving ability, this high stakes situation also
>>>> creates a greater likelihood of negative response to perceived
>>>> threats to the blind person's self-concept and sense of efficacy in
>>>> the interaction.
>>>> So for example, an overly helpful person might cause a blind person
>>>> to feel ineffective as it is. But the invisible audience concept
>>>> boosts that feeling considerably because of the stress involved
>>>> with feeling like they have to show themselves as both effective
>>>> and graceful in handling both the offers of help and the person
>>>> who's offering it. Is any of this making sense? So the bottom line
>>>> is that by trying to be the perfect ambassador for the blind, we
>>>> may be shooting ourselves in the foot by creating such a high
>>>> stakes situation in our mind that the stress lowers our ability to
>>>> present the cool, calm, and effective image we want to offer to the
>>>> public.
>>>>
>>>> On that note, I've noticed that our community seems to have it in
>>>> our heads that we're responsible for how the sighted feel about us.
>>>> The truth is that there are limits to that responsibility.
>>>> Sure, we
>>>> want to set a good impression in all areas, but so does everyone
>>>> else. The sad truth is that we are judged based on the actions of
>>>> one person.
>>>> But the thing is, there's nothing that we can really do about that
>>>> except to expose a given sighted person to the diversity of our
>>>> population. Even if we set the perfect impression, it's likely that
>>>> the sighted person will still stereotype by saying that we're all
>>>> amazing or that the one individual in question is the exception to
>>>> a rule. It seems to me that the only people who really get that
>>>> we're as diverse as they are are those who know how to deconstruct
>>>> society's grand narrative or are those who have seen enough
>>>> diversity in our population to realize that they can't judge all of
>>>> us based on one person.
>>>>
>>>> Respectfully,
>>>> Jedi
>>>>
>>>> Original message:
>>>> That makes perfect sense, but we should not fall into the trap of
>>>> taking responsibility for others' actions. When we do that, we
>>>> lose sight of our own goals and direction in life. Unless you're a
>>>> therapist, or a rehab teacher working with people like that, it is
>>>> not your job to fix them. Even as a therapist or teacher, your
>>>> place is to be a mentor and an instructor. As I previously said,
>>>> if that person, after being shown compassion and alternative ways
>>>> of thinking, doing and living chooses to fall back into old
>>>> patterns as soon as the instructor's back is turned, that shows a
>>>> lack of respect for everyone around them, including themselves.
>>>> So
>>>> if a person wants to wallow in misery and self-pity, let them!
>>>> That person will either fall hard when they find out their
>>>> parents/family members/significant other or what have you can't
>>>> take care of them forever, and then they'll realize what needs to
>>>> happen in due time, or they will get sick of the status quo and
>>>> want to change it. And if people hold it against a decent blind
>>>> person because they've met a person like that in the past, it's not
>>>> worth it to try and make them feel any differently. They will
>>>> either come around in time or they won't. Choice is the key word
>>>> here.
>>>> Everyone is free to think as they choose so long as it's not
>>>> hurting anyone. So, while it might temporarily sting a bit to lose
>>>> out on a potential friendship due to someone's ignorance, as soon
>>>> as you meet someone who's worth your time, you forget about that
>>>> other person real quick
>>>>
>>>> On 5/26/11, Daniel Romero <djdan567 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> I think the reason why this might go down is because of the view
>>>> that we get from the public in general. Most people who are
>>>> sighted are not used to a blind person. You have to understand
>>>> that one blind person being seen is a huge thing. They're now
>>>> reliable for what a person thinks about blind people. They are the
>>>> ones setting an example. So if you have a blind person who smells
>>>> bad, rocks, pokes their eyes or just do not have the proper skills,
>>>> the outside person will make an assumtion and say that all blind
>>>> people are like that. i'm not saying it's right for blind people
>>>> to call out other blind people with a skills set that is lower then
>>>> theirs, they're just calling them out because they are representing
>>>> blind people. It puts a bad label on us blind people who do take
>>>> care of ourselves, have the skills to be independent and succeed.
>>>> like i said, i'm not saying it's right but I don't think us who do
>>>> have the skills want to have a negative conotation. Not all blind
>>>> people poke their eyes, rock, hop, twitch,bump into everything,
>>>> smell bad, do not clean their own clothes, or anything like that.
>>>> So to be part of a group that's going to display such a view that
>>>> is negative to the public, we fall right behind that. Am I making
>>>> sense?
>>>>
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>>>> --
>>>> Darian Smith
>>>> Skype: The_Blind_Truth
>>>> Windows Live: Lightningrod2010 at live.com Follow me on twitter:
>>>> http://twitter.com/goldengateace
>>>>
>>>> "The purpose of life is a life of purpose.
>>>>
>>>> - Robert Byrne
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Darian Smith
>>>> Skype: The_Blind_Truth
>>>> Windows Live: Lightningrod2010 at live.com Follow me on twitter:
>>>> http://twitter.com/goldengateace
>>>>
>>>> "The purpose of life is a life of purpose.
>>>>
>>>> - Robert Byrne
>>>>
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>>>> Darian Smith
>>>> Skype: The_Blind_Truth
>>>> Windows Live: Lightningrod2010 at live.com Follow me on twitter:
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>>>>
>>>> "The purpose of life is a life of purpose.
>>>>
>>>> - Robert Byrne
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>>
>>
>> --
>> Darian Smith
>> Skype: The_Blind_Truth
>> Windows Live: Lightningrod2010 at live.com Follow me on twitter:
>> http://twitter.com/goldengateace
>>
>> "The purpose of life is a life of purpose.
>>
>> - Robert Byrne
>>
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