[nabs-l] NFB Philosophy
Kirt Manwaring
kirt.crazydude at gmail.com
Fri Jul 20 18:43:01 UTC 2012
Sophie,
You're fortunate enough to have an Iphone. You're fortunate enough
to be tech-savy enough to understand and use voiceover; many blind
people aren't. Just something to think about.
All,
I'm a little confused why we're debating the merits of accessible
currency while, as we speak, it is in the process of being
implemented. Granted, it's very early in the process still, but we're
going to have it, like it or not. And, to my understanding, the NFB
is participating in the accessible money's design; I guess national
leadership figured, since this is happening anyway, they may as well
have a say in it. Seems logical enough to me.
Best,
Kirt
On 7/20/12, Sophie Trist <sweetpeareader at gmail.com> wrote:
> For identifying money, I use Looktell Money Reader, an app on my
> iPhone. To me, that's easier to use than the iBill, and it's one
> less device to carry around. I am also not in favor of accessible
> currency. For one, with various devices and apps, we are now able
> to tell which bill is which, anyway. For another, as Desiree
> said, it would be too costly and take too long.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Desiree Oudinot <turtlepower17 at gmail.com
> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> Date sent: Fri, 20 Jul 2012 04:15:49 -0400
> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] NFB Philosophy
>
> Thank you, Tyler. Those were my thoughts exactly. One thing
> you've got
> slightly wrong though is that the new money identifiers really
> aren't
> clunky. The IBill, in fact, can easily fit into your pocket. Then
> you
> just slide a bill into it and it identifies it for you. It can
> respond
> by vibration, a series of beeps, or by speaking the denomination
> of
> the bill. I have one of them, and not only is it inexpensive, but
> it
> works well.
> On the issue of accessible currency, I'm not in favor of that,
> either.
> For one thing, it would take quite awhile for the old money to be
> phased out. It would remain in circulation for years, thus you
> would
> still have the old, inaccessible bills handed to you in most
> cases for
> a long time. Second, think of how many things would have to be
> modified--vending machines, cash registers, even things like
> arcade
> games that might take dollar bills, all to fit the new currency.
> That
> would be extremely costly. God knows that the government doesn't
> have
> the money to spend on something like that. No, they're too busy
> wasting it on pointless crap...Everything to do with every other
> country's business, never stepping up to help our own people.
> Back on topic, as far as the NFB's philosophy goes, I have to
> agree
> with what Arielle said about not needing to be in an organization
> for
> or of the blind to have a positive attitude about blindness.
> That's
> like saying that one must be religious to have morals. No, I
> don't
> want to know if people think that's true or false--I've heard
> enough
> of that debate to last a lifetime--I'm just saying it to make a
> point.
> While some people are certainly bolstered by being members of
> such an
> organization, gaining something from being surrounded by
> like-minded
> individuals, that's definitely not me. I'm not a member of either
> organization, nor do I intend on becoming one. I use listservs of
> both
> because I think that, like the core philosophy, the exchange of
> ideas,
> support and thoughts should not be limited to what team you play
> for
> so to speak. For the most part, it isn't. We're all people, and
> we all
> deserve to be heard, no matter what flag we wave in the name of
> our
> own self-discovery.
> Oh, and Joshua, get your facts straight. Michael Capell decided
> to
> stay with the ACB. I really don't think you should spread rumors
> about
> people without knowing the whole story.
>
> On 7/20/12, Littlefield, Tyler <tyler at tysdomain.com> wrote:
> Josh,
> you really are an idiot. It's not to often that I just drop all
> sarcasm
> and really go for it, but I have to.
> You start out introducing nothing to the list but bad
> information and
> one-line "I agree," "I have those too," then you jump into
> bashing me
> when I ask about the philosophy of NFB. From there, we move into
> "Dam
> the ACB for not voting for fair wages. NFB voted against
> something, but
> hey, that's ok because we'd put the manufacturers of equipment
> and
> software out of business," and we go on to "omg it would cost
> lots of
> money to make this accessible."
>
> It's people like you who drive people away. Maybe you did just
> get
> Michael capell, congratulations, but there are people that
> switch back
> and forth all the time. If you have to wait for someone like
> Sean and
> the others on this list to give you an intelligent cogent
> philosophy you
> can grab on to as a lifeline so you can hop back up on your
> self-righteous confederationist soapbox, then all the more power
> to you.
> Might I propose though, that you go from being a mindless
> confederationist zombie who spews random crap and calls it fact,
> and
> actually consider thinking for yourself. Your arguments for the
> NFB not
> passing the accessible money is not logical at all. In fact, if
> I
> remember correctly, you were one of the ones screaming about
> things
> costing to much a few messages back.
>
> I don't want what I said to be taken as an attack on the NFB,
> either. I
> believe every organization has good members who can give good,
> valid
> information like Sean, Arielle and others have, but they also
> have a
> high percentage of mindless bafoons, like our dear friend, as
> well.
>
> I understand that it would cost money to make currency brailled
> and
> accessible, but hey, on the flip-side, it would cost money to
> pay
> disabled people fair wages, too, so lets just drop that, because
> we
> can't have something costing money now, can we?
>
> As for my idea of currency, I really have no idea how this would
> work
> out, since the braille could get smashed. Maybe there could be a
> strip
> of thicker paper at one end of the bill that would have the
> braille on
> it; it would not prevent it from getting pushed down, but it
> would
> certainly help, and we wouldn't have to walk around with one of
> them
> clunky expensive money readers, or hold the bill in front of the
> IPhone
> for 5 minutes rotating it every which direction until it picks
> it up and
> announces it.
> On 7/19/2012 11:43 PM, Joshua Lester wrote:
> Also, do you know how much it would cost to make the money
> accessible?
> My idea, when Alan Ramos first presented it to me, was a
> Brailled
> currency.
> What is your idea of accessible currency?
> I'm curious!
> Thanks, Joshua
>
> On 7/20/12, Littlefield, Tyler <tyler at tysdomain.com> wrote:
> I did attend the convention. I did not, however go to every
> general
> session from 8 to 5.
> But hey. lets bash the ACB for not voting for fair wages, for
> whatever
> reason they did, but not make money accessible because gosh, we
> sure
> don't want to put the manufacturers of a program out of
> business. Your
> logic is flawless, my friend.
> On 7/19/2012 11:20 PM, Joshua Lester wrote:
> Well, did you attend the convention?
> You should know!
> I'm not "bashing," but am concerned that they claim to be of the
> blind, but they vote against fair wages.
> BTW, they voted for the accessible currency, but we voted
> against it.
> I've heard from both sides of the issue, and I take the NFB's
> position, because accessible currency would put the
> manufacturers of
> the IBill out of business.
> Blessings, Joshua
>
> On 7/20/12, Littlefield, Tyler <tyler at tysdomain.com> wrote:
> Josh,
> Like I said, before you go organization bashing and flap your
> lips,
> you
> should probably ask someone in ACB who knows about it. There's
> been
> things that the NFB has voted against too, I'm sure.
>
> On 7/19/2012 10:30 PM, Joshua Lester wrote:
> Arielle: that was a great post.
> I just have one question about this.
> If our philosophies aren't at odds, then why did the ACB vote,
> "Do
> Not
> Pass," on the "Fair Wages for Workers with Disabilities Act,"
> resolution at their convention?
> Evidently, they're okay with disabled workers being paid below
> the
> federally mandated minimum wage.
> Hmmm!
> Thanks, Joshua
>
> On 7/19/12, Arielle Silverman <arielle71 at gmail.com> wrote:
> Hi all,
> I think Sean's description of "NFB philosophy" as he sees it was
> excellent. I would also add two things:
> 1. I don't think the NFB has a patent on this philosophy. In
> fact, I
> would argue that most committed ACB members and many other
> successful
> blind people who choose not to affiliate with organizations also
> espouse the positive philosophy of blindness that Sean
> described.
> The
> NFB has chosen to make this philosophy a central focus, but that
> does
> not mean that non-NFB members cannot live by it themselves or
> encourage others to accept it. It is important to remember that
> the
> ACB split off from the NFB, and although I am not an expert on
> what
> happened, everything I've read about the split suggests that it
> occurred because of disagreements about how leadership in the
> organization should be structured, not about fundamental
> philosophy
> of
> blindness. In more recent years the NFB and ACB have taken
> differing
> approaches to some policy issues, but that does not necessarily
> mean
> that their core philosophies of blindness are at odds. I don't
> think
> the two organizations should merge into one super-organization
> of
> blind Americans because I like the fact that individuals have
> choices
> about which organization to join and that there's not one big
> group
> monopolizing the organizational stage. But I also think that the
> NFB
> and ACB have more in common in terms of their goals for changing
> what
> it means to be blind than we might think on first glance.
>
> 2. To address Marc's point about universal design: In the nine
> years
> I
> have been a part of the NFB, I have observed that the NFB
> increasingly
> takes a pragmatic dualistic approach to promoting both
> individual
> coping with accessibility barriers and advocacy to bring them
> down.
> I
> would urge you to read the NFB 2012 resolutions once they become
> available online, and you will find that most of these
> resolutions
> address access barriers in one form or another and advocate for
> their
> removal. I believe the NFB is moving further in the direction of
> pushing for accessibility and I have seen change on this front
> even
> since the time when I first joined nine years ago. However,
> though
> we
> are committed to doing what we can to promote universal access
> for
> blind people, we also are aware that, realistically, it will
> take
> time
> for all those in power to make it happen. In the meantime, we
> are
> also
> working to help blind individuals figure out how to adapt to
> those
> barriers we are not yet able to control. For example, we will
> fight
> for full access to educational technology, but instead of
> waiting to
> enroll in college until this access happens, we will also work
> to
> harness the support of human readers and other adaptations so
> that
> we
> can still be successful in spite of these barriers. In other
> words,
> instead of pitting individual adaptation and universal design
> against
> each other as mutually exclusive options, why not take a dual
> approach
> toward both of these goals?
> Arielle
>
> On 7/19/12, Justin Salisbury <PRESIDENT at alumni.ecu.edu> wrote:
> I have a few notes for a few different people on this thread.
>
> Tyler:
> I understand the hesitancy about getting involved when you don't
> fully
> agree
> with everything that everyone else believes. I once had that
> hesitation
> about getting involved with organized religion. I started going
> to
> a
> campus
> ministry at my college because a friend sold me on the free
> dinner,
> and
> I
> quickly learned that no church is homogenous in beliefs. In
> some
> churches,
> the leadership will try like mad to perpetuate the idea that
> everyone
> in
> the
> church believes exactly what they do and that anyone who
> disagrees
> slightly
> is against them. In my church, we aren't like that, and we
> understand
> that
> people have differing views. We unite under the idea that it's
> okay
> to
> disagree on individual issues and discuss them, but we have
> generally
> the
> same core beliefs.
> That's how we are in the Federation. If you don't agree with
> something
> we're doing, I'll make an effort to help you come to terms with
> it
> because
> that's my individual personality. I often find that, when
> someone
> disagrees
> with something we're doing, it is because of a lack of
> understanding
> of
> what
> we're doing or the underlying issue. At the end of the day, I
> won't
> shun
> you.
>
> Marc Workman:
> Of course we, in the Federation, fight to break down the
> barriers.
> Why
> do
> you think we do legislative lobbying? Washington Seminar is an
> absolutely
> amazing experience, and you should try it! We honor
> adaptability
> because
> there's no sense in being helpless in the meantime while we work
> on
> those
> barriers.
> On the mention of Sean's place in social stratification: I am a
> colored
> person, I'm the first person in my family to go to college, and
> I
> don't
> bother wallowing in the lack of advantage that I face because of
> it.
> Quite
> frankly, I'm not even convinced that I am disadvantaged by being
> a
> colored
> person. With the first generation college student part, I have
> to
> seek
> mentors in the academic process from outside my family, and I
> know
> many,
> many educated Federationists who have eagerly fulfilled that
> role
> for
> me.
> Lastly, I've made comments like "i've had this conversation with
> you
> before"
> in a public manner to other people-trust me, I have-but I've
> realized
> in
> retrospect that it only creates distance between everyone who
> hears
> me
> and
> myself. A lot of people take that as an implied personal
> attack.
> I'm
> not
> saying Sean took it that way, but I'm sure plenty of people did
> read
> it
> that
> way.
>
> Brandon Keith Biggs, I loved reading this part of your email:
> In my book, there is no larger crime than depriving someone of
> their
> dreams
> and the second biggest crime is taking away the chance for
> people
> to
> reach
> for those dreams. For while there are dreams, there is hope.
> With
> hope
> life
> always has enough energy to turn the corner and keep going. The
> NFB
> to
> me
> is that hope and the rock and refuge that is always there for me
> if
> I
> need
> it.
>
> Yours in Federationism,
>
> Justin Salisbury
>
> Justin M. Salisbury
> Class of 2012
> B.A. in Mathematics
> East Carolina University
> president at alumni.ecu.edu
>
> “Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed
> citizens
> can
> change
> the world; indeed, it’s the only thing that ever has.”
> —MARGARET
> MEAD
>
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> --
> Take care,
> Ty
> http://tds-solutions.net
> The aspen project: a barebones light-weight mud engine:
> http://code.google.com/p/aspenmud
> He that will not reason is a bigot; he that cannot reason is a
> fool;
> he
> that
> dares not reason is a slave.
>
>
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> Ty
> http://tds-solutions.net
> The aspen project: a barebones light-weight mud engine:
> http://code.google.com/p/aspenmud
> He that will not reason is a bigot; he that cannot reason is a
> fool; he
> that
> dares not reason is a slave.
>
>
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> --
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> Ty
> http://tds-solutions.net
> The aspen project: a barebones light-weight mud engine:
> http://code.google.com/p/aspenmud
> He that will not reason is a bigot; he that cannot reason is a
> fool; he that
> dares not reason is a slave.
>
>
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