[nabs-l] Goodwill Boycott
Joshua Lester
jlester8462 at students.pccua.edu
Sun Jun 10 16:46:55 UTC 2012
Sophie!
You don't know how bad schools for the blind are!
Good grief!
When I attended the Jumpstart program, at Arkansas School for the
Blind, I was sad to see kids my age, who should've graduated from high
school, who had straight A's, be held back!
I asked around, and the oldest graduates from the school, in 2007, was
25 years old!
That's what one former student told me.
Sad!
Blessings, Joshua
On 6/10/12, Sophie Trist <sweetpeareader at gmail.com> wrote:
> I was very fortunate to have a good TVI for most of my life, but
> when Hurricane Katrina hit, I was forced to leave home and attend
> a school for the blind. I was shocked at how horrible it was. On
> my first day there, I was taken to a VI class and asked to read a
> braille book so that they could evaluate my skills. Within five
> minutes, they sent me right back to class. The TVI's there had
> nothing new to teach me. I was in a third/fourth-grade class, and
> the work was first-grade level. This boils down to we need better
> TVI's and more of them.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Joshua Lester <jlester8462 at students.pccua.edu
> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> Date sent: Sun, 10 Jun 2012 02:11:25 -0500
> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Goodwill Boycott
>
> Wow!
> You're right!
> I didn't have a real TVI, for 6/12th grade.
> My TVI, (So called,) was a special Ed teacher, who ended up
> getting
> trained as a TVI.
> If she wasn't there to help me, guess where I was forced to go!
> Yup!
> Special Ed classes!
> Of course, I enjoyed it, because the instructor knew I didn't
> need to
> be there, so she allowed me to help her with the kids, that
> actually
> needed the help.
> Blessings, Joshua
>
> On 6/10/12, Brandon Keith Biggs <brandonkeithbiggs at gmail.com>
> wrote:
> Hello,
> I'm sure many people who have talked to me before know what I'm
> going to
> say...
> It's the educational system that many of these problems come
> down to. We
> have teachers coming out of school who are not inspired to
> create a new
> style of teaching. We have teachers who are never taught about
> disabled
> students. We have blind students who are never taught how to ask
> for
> accommodations. We have parents who think being blind is bad!
> Honestly, if I could have redone my education as a sighted
> person, I would
> not have done it. Being blind is such an advantage in the United
> States when
> going through school. You get extra time on everything, you get
> leniency on
> all your assignments if you can't finish them on time, you get
> free
> schooling, you get paid to go through school by SSI, you have so
> many
> scholarships you can apply for, you can use the law to fight for
> accessibility with little retribution, you become great friends
> with your
> teachers just because you get to talk to them all the time, you
> are by
> nature a very active participant in your class, you are able to
> read your
> books 1000 times faster than all of the other students combined,
> you're able
> to get tutoring for free, you don't have to feel ashamed for
> taking
> advantage of any of the above benefits because you're disabled
> and that's
> what you're expected to do!
> Also, the expectation of your teachers is rather low and when
> you get 100%
> on all their hardest tests they get all embarrassed, people
> think it's
> amazing that you're getting strait As when it's nothing,
> (Stereotypically)
> blind people are very unsocial so they have lots of extra time
> to do school
> work, you're able to actually edit your teacher's handouts and
> instructions
> because Jaws doesn't miss skipped letters, if you have a problem
> with your
> online test you can blame it on your screen reader crashing the
> web browser,
> state colleges gobble you up if you have ever taken an honors
> class at a
> community college and you have good grades and you've written
> one of those
> inspiring essays, when you write inspiring essays you can get
> the super
> arrogant feeling for a moment and say "That's me in the essay!",
> you're able
> to participate in all kinds of extra activities through agencies
> like Global
> explorers or the Light House, you can participate in summer job
> programs
> like YES1 and YES2 in Washington State, when you go to community
> college or
> state college you're given a guide through the school because
> you need a
> mobility lesson and you have the disability resource person...
> I should probably stop, but you get the idea...
> It's probably because I was homeschooled for the first few years
> of my life
> and did all kinds of super awesome things with my overly amazing
> parents and
> didn't enter public school till 5th grade that I have this view
> of school,
> but I understood that I could learn in public school and it was
> just that
> either the teacher wasn't teaching me or that I wasn't equipped
> with the
> skills or technology that was keeping me from learning.
> There are many other factors in learning, like Gardiner's
> multiple theory
> of intelligences that play a factor in if one learns in school,
> but thank
> goodness I was able to learn that anyone can learn from anyone,
> they just
> need to know how they learn and learn that way!
> I can give examples, but this email is already super long, so
> I'll get off
> education.
> My point is that most blind people aren’t taught about all the
> above things.
> I was super lucky because my parents let me run my IEP meetings
> and my mom
> became a TVI half way through my schooling, but every blind
> person needs to
> know that school can be amazing! It is worth spending 8-12 years
> of your
> life there getting your music degree or dentist degree.
>
> Another factor is that disabled people are fit into even a
> tighter mold of
> what they are to be when disabled people are the most unique of
> anyone.
> Blind people do not belong in special ed classes because they
> don't need
> special ed. Special ed teachers are people who teach extreme
> cases of
> autistic or other mentally disabled people. If a blind person is
> put into
> that environment and they don't need it, they will go insane!
> It's like if
> Stephen Hawking would have been born totally disabled and people
> stuck him
> into special ed just because he can't talk!
> Where would cosmology be?
> Sadly it's those who break out of the mold and assimilate their
> own way into
> sighted culture in order to evade the label of mentally disabled
> that are
> fighting for these rights.
>
> I keep on telling people that if someone is considered weird
> it's not them
> that's weird, it's you who's weird for thinking that they're
> weird. It's
> like you thinking the person in front of you is going through
> time the same
> way you are!
>
> Sadly the world is not reasonable, so we have to shuck reason
> and go for
> emotion. That's why we write all the super inspiring essays and
> that's why
> we have to assimilate into the sighted world.
> Those who end up working in low under minimum wage jobs have
> probably not
> learned how to assimilate enough to pass off as "normal" in the
> sighted
> community, so that's probably why they can't get the entry level
> jobs.
>
> Before someone gives the line about not needing to be anything
> other than
> blind because we are blind, let me just say that most of this
> world likes to
> think they are sighted and normal. Most people like to walk with
> the crowd.
> Those who never learn to walk with the crowd are considered
> weird, those who
> learn how to walk with the crowd then figure out how to rise
> above it are
> considered great.
> Thanks,
>
> Brandon Keith Biggs
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Arielle Silverman
> Sent: Saturday, June 09, 2012 9:27 PM
> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Goodwill Boycott
>
> Hi Brandon,
> These are all good points. I like your statement about blind
> people
> who are "nurtured to act like they are mentally disabled" as I
> have
> met a few people who unfortunately seem to fit that description.
> The problem is that there is no objective test to determine what
> a
> person is or is not capable of doing. Even so-called objective
> tests
> like IQ tests are incredibly biased and don't account for
> environmental factors that artificially limit people's abilities
> or
> knowledge, like what is expected of them by parents and
> teachers, or
> what skills they are or are not taught. There is research
> showing that
> when people are expected to behave or perform in a certain way,
> they
> tend to fulfill that expectation (this is called a
> "self-fulfilling
> prophesy; if you're interested in the research, look up
> "Pygmalian
> effect"). So when teachers are randomly told that some kids are
> smarter than others, they tend to treat those "smart" kids
> differently
> without even realizing it and eventually the "smart" kids end up
> performing better than the other kids. The reverse pattern too
> often
> happens with disabilities. People have so many assumptions about
> how
> disabilities limit potential, and people in authority can act in
> ways
> that make those assumptions come true.
> I also agree that people with disabilities would be much more
> productive in sheltered jobs if they did work that was
> intrinsically
> interesting to them and if the work was in a field they were
> actually
> good at. It is common knowledge that people of all ages and
> mental
> abilities will do a better job at any task if they find the task
> enjoyable and motivating. Too often, sheltered jobs are simply
> too
> boring to really engage people. Also, people with disabilities
> have
> their own talents that are rarely utilized in sheltered jobs. I
> have
> figured out that if I were forced to do a sheltered workshop
> job, I
> would probably be the one losing them money if they paid me at
> minimum
> wage, because I have never been good at making stuff with my
> hands or
> using machines. Not only would I be bored to tears, but I just
> wouldn't be good at it. I am much better at writing and thinking
> and
> doing math, so I hope that society will let me use those skills
> instead of forcing me to do work I'm not skilled at.
> Regarding your comment about unemployment among the blind, it is
> true
> that many fields are accessible to the blind these days, yet the
> unemployment rate is still staggering. There are many reasons
> for
> unemployment among the blind. I think one reason is that
> employers
> want to hire applicants with relevant experience, and in many
> fields,
> the entry-level position that people get at first to gain
> experience
> isn't accessible to the blind. This might not be true with
> programming, but in some fields it is really hard to get your
> foot in
> the door even if it's easier to work at higher levels. For
> example,
> before becoming a teacher, you need to do student teaching,
> which
> means you are working under someone else who might not use
> accessible
> materials or who will doubt your ability to do the job. Without
> experience, it's harder to allay people's initial discriminatory
> doubts and fears about hiring a blind person. Also, even within
> an
> accessible field, individual employers might use materials that
> aren't
> accessible to the blind. So even though programming is very
> accessible, if some employers require you to use languages or
> scripts
> that aren't accessible, this will limit job options.
> Arielle
>
> On 6/9/12, Brandon Keith Biggs <brandonkeithbiggs at gmail.com>
> wrote:
> Hello,
> It's a tricky situation. We can't really say what it's like
> being mentally
> disabled and it's hard to say what mentally disabled can or can
> not do. We
> also can't tell if the blind who are nurtured to act like
> mentally
> disabled
> people really are mentally disabled.
> *That's a mouthful!*
> I am of the opinion that mentally disabled people are way under
> employed
> and
> jobs like Goodwill are completely the wrong job for many of
> them. But I'm
> not a professional and I can only say from personal experience
> that many
> mentally disabled people can do what they want quite well and
> often it's
> because they are babied and misunderstood that they are
> pressured into
> doing jobs they aren’t good at.
>
> I do wonder the need of blind adults to be working at good will
> in the
> first
> place though when it's not that hard learning programming and
> it's pretty
> easy to get reeducated for free in the United States as a blind
> person. If
> your career isn't working out, I don't see why one wouldn't just
> take a
> class at their community college and change their job. I believe
> SSI is
> for
> college students and those fresh out of college, or for a back
> up when
> work
> isn't coming. I am still a student, but I know I have for sure
> jobs if I
> go
> into programming or being a TVI. So other than the moral
> issues, I'm not
> sure why capable blind people are working at goodwill.
> Thanks,
>
> Brandon Keith Biggs
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Arielle Silverman
> Sent: Saturday, June 09, 2012 8:32 PM
> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Goodwill Boycott
>
> Hi all,
> I don't shop at Goodwill either, but I was regularly donating
> items
> like used clothes to Goodwill, and my parents do as well. A
> customer
> boycott might not matter much but a donor boycott would probably
> hurt
> them considerably. I have to say I found Justin's arguments very
> persuasive. I just hope that if we boycott all branches
> nationally, we
> make it very clear that what we want is a change to national
> policy.
> Interestingly, I used to rent an apartment from a woman (I'll
> call her
> S) whose full-time job was to be a live-in caretaker for a woman
> with
> Down's syndrome and significant mental retardation (I'll call
> her C).
> Since I rented the apartment right below theirs, I got to know
> both S
> and C quite well and learned a bit about C's situation.
> Apparently C
> is employed by a program for people with intellectual
> disabilities
> similar to Goodwill's but it wasn't Goodwill itself. I think S.
> told
> me that C. was paid around $1 per hour for doing an extremely
> menial
> job although I don't remember what that job was exactly.
> However, I
> don't think C. had any living expenses at all because she lived
> rent-free with S. She may have been helping pay for groceries.
> The
> program she was in was very custodial and I'm not sure she even
> had
> independent access to the money she earned at her job.
> I don't think I can really judge whether people with
> disabilities like
> C.'s are capable of living without custodial care or spending
> their
> own money, any more than a deaf person should be able to judge
> how
> independent blind people can be. I do suspect that people like
> C.
> would achieve more if they were held to higher expectations, and
> higher expectations should come with higher wages and more
> freedom.
> I definitely believe that anyone who lives independently should
> be
> paid at least the minimum wage, and I think it is clear that
> blindness
> by itself doesn't prevent anyone from living independently.
> However, I
> do wonder if minimum wage is necessary for those who don't have
> living
> expenses or who don't manage their own finances because they are
> living in custodial care situations. I'm sure there are people
> in
> these custodial arrangements who shouldn't be there, but that
> almost
> sounds like a separate issue. These people aren't in custodial
> care
> because they are earning low wages, but because their parents or
> others acting on their behalf have decided they don't have the
> intellect or the maturity to make adult decisions. Again, this
> should
> never be said about people who are just blind without other
> disabilities. As far as intellectual disabilities go, in some
> cases
> this judgment might be right; in other cases it might be wrong.
> But if
> someone is clearly not able to manage adult expenses, should
> they be
> paid adult wages? It's tricky.
> I can also understand the argument that if noncompetitive
> employment
> programs for the disabled raise wages, they can't hire as many
> workers. This ultimately means that instead of a bunch of
> disabled
> workers earning crappy wages, some will earn a decent wage and
> others
> will earn nothing. Of course, we hope that the reduction in
> noncompetitive jobs might bring more disabled workers into the
> competitive job market. A mandatory minimum wage would also
> force
> companies with high salaries at the top to redistribute their
> payscale
> more fairly.
> Arielle
>
> On 6/9/12, Chris Nusbaum <dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com> wrote:
> I agree, Humberto, and I hope what you say comes true. However,
> there's a
> lot of change we need to make in order for this to happen. Even
> if we
> overturn the subminimum wage provision, and I hope and pray that
> we do,
> we
> can't possibly tell employers that they have to hire people with
> disabilities. So, we need to change the beliefs and the
> attidudes of
> society, including employers, about the competence of blind
> people. I
> know,
> it's a big job, but I think we've made a lot of progress so far.
>
> Just my thoughts,
>
> Chris
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org
> [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
> Behalf Of Humberto Avila
> Sent: Saturday, June 09, 2012 10:10 PM
> To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'
> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Goodwill Boycott
>
> Hello, I agree with this as well. I hope that by doing the
> boycott to
> this
> company, in the national / universal spectrum, we are able to
> put
> pressure
> on employers, and on other companies and corporations, as well
> as
> organizations who pay subminimum wages. We could eventually end
> up
> spreading the word of stopping companies to pay subminimum wages
> and they
> could even see that people with disabilities and including blind
> people
> are
> capable of being paid like the sighted population. If potential
> employers
> see this change happening, those employers will have a light
> bulb lit up,
> and will be able to see that blind people are competent, then
> will hire
> them. Then we can make more change. I see this happening, from
> my
> personal
> opinion. Let's hope that the NFB does this.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org
> [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
> Behalf Of Sophie Trist
> Sent: Saturday, June 09, 2012 6:57 PM
> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Goodwill Boycott
>
> Justin,
>
> I agree with the points you've made. If Goodwill was boycotted
> universally,
> it would put more pressure on them to pay their disabled workers
> fair
> wages. Plus, if Goodwill developed a centralized wage policy and
> gave
> their
> workers fair wages, other corporations might follow their lead.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Justin Salisbury <PRESIDENT at alumni.ecu.edu
> To: "nabs-l at nfbnet.org" <nabs-l at nfbnet.org Date sent: Sat, 9 Jun
> 2012
> 23:19:15 +0000
> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Goodwill Boycott
>
> One more note: I think that local business decision-makers
> within
> Goodwill
> Industries would be educated/led to philosophical change simply
> by the
> fact
> that the corporate leaders of Goodwill Industries adopted a
> universal
> fair
> wage policy (if they did), so that would help with the
> education, too.
>
> Justin M. Salisbury
> Class of 2012
> B.A. in Mathematics
> East Carolina University
> president at alumni.ecu.edu
>
> 밡ever doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed
> citizens
> can change the world; indeed, it뭩 the only thing that ever
> has.?
> 뾏ARGARET MEAD
> ________________________________________
> From: Justin Salisbury
> Sent: Saturday, June 09, 2012 7:13 PM
> To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> Subject: Goodwill Boycott
>
> Arielle, Gabe, and all:
>
> I like the point that you've made about the decentralized wage
> policies
> and
> rewarding good locations, but do you think that perhaps a
> benefit to
> boycotting universally would be a possibility that Goodwill
> Industries
> would create a centralized
> (universal) policy that all locations must pay their workers
> fair wages?
>
> I feel like the end result that we want is for Goodwill
> Industries to
> adopt
> a universal standard of paying all workers fair wages, and the
> approach
> that you all have mentioned seems to me to address the decisions
> in
> individual locations. I do understand the point of leading
> local
> business
> leaders to undergo philosophical change and choose to pay their
> workers
> fair wages, but which item is the top priority: education of
> individuals
> or
>
> achievement of fair wages? That's not a rhetorical question; I
> want to hear opinions on it.
>
> Justin
>
> Justin M. Salisbury
> Class of 2012
> B.A. in Mathematics
> East Carolina University
> president at alumni.ecu.edu
>
> 밡ever doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed
> citizens
> can change the world; indeed, it뭩 the only thing that ever
> has.?
> 뾏ARGARET MEAD
>
>
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