[nabs-l] Lines

Fri Apr 5 17:50:55 UTC 2013

Car,
  I rarely get to correct people; usually, I'm the one being corrected
in one way or another.  So please don't blame me for relishing this
rare opportunity...Carly, you stand corrected!  ;)
  I think, if you aren't able to use a cane and travel independently
without a dog, you probably have no business getting one.  I say that
as a proud and comfortable cane user; still, most of my dog using
friends (especially the ones with solid mobility skills), have told me
that there are situations where they would never bring their dog, but
where they still want to travel independently.  I think most people
who have said anything about this, with the exception of Peter and
Sarah have agreed that they would probably not take a dog to an
amusement park.  The reasons they gave were similar to your own; from
my obviously limited experience, I agree.  All I'm saying is that if
you go to an amusement park you shouldn't have to rely on your friend
to get you wherever you want to go and, if you get separated or decide
to go to the bathroom or something, you shouldn't expect your friend
to always be attached to you at the hip.  Even teenage couples who
can't get their hands off of each other won't always go on every ride
together, one person might want to get food from the pizza place while
the other person gets food at the bbq joint just around the corner, or
on the other side of the food court, or whatever.  All I'm saying is,
whether you're a cane user or a dog user or prefer sighted guide, I
would hope you know how to handle yourself when you need or want to do
something that most people do on their own.  I'll give a couple more
examples cause I'm bored and I have some time to kill.
  I was at a college basketball game with my family a couple weeks
back.  I had no qualms whatsoever about using sighted guide once we
got in the arena and started walking to our seats; I could've had them
constantly yell to tell me where they were, I've done it that way
before in training...but, in that situation, I decided sighted guide
was more convenient so I did it.  However, when I had to go use the
restroom I was totally fine getting out of my seat, going to take care
of my business, finding the concession stand and buying more unhealthy
crap which made me really need the restroom later and walking back to
my seat without any problem.  I prefer doing that instead of asking
other people to interrupt the activity they payed for to help me do
something I'm more than capable of doing on my own.  Am I making any
sense?
  Best,
Kirt

On 4/5/13, Carly Mihalakis <carlymih at comcast.net> wrote:
> Good morning, Kirt,
>
> Perhaps, our views of guide dog's placement  within the blind human
> animal experiment differ. You seem to believe, and do correct me if I
> am seeing things, are that, since these guide dogs have been trained
> to serve humans, it should, in all cased trump nature. I am in
> fundamental disagreement with such a premise. If you think of it,
> these poor animal's innate quality of servitude of humans  is being
> exploited, to magnificent proportions, and I don't want party to
> that. This is why I can't ever see myself working with a dog.
> Happy Frieday! Car, Kirt Manwaring wrote:
>>Kar,
>>   First, while I think there is absolutely a time and place for
>>profanity (you should have heard me when I accidentally spilled a cup
>>of hot tea at a coffee shop just a few days ago), I don't think it
>>suits a publicly archived mailing list.  This is coming from someone
>>who can curse like a completely drunk sailor, believe me, I just don't
>>think this is the right venue for language like that.
>>   Now on to the substance of my email.  As should be completely
>>obvious by now, I'm not a dog user and (probably) will never be one.
>>Still I think leaving Fido home (as most guide dogs are trained to
>>deal with), would be a better option than bringing the pooch to the
>>amusement park.  If you want to go with a friend (as most people
>>probably will), more power to you.  Still, if you have to rely on that
>>friend to get you wherever you need to go, and you aren't capable of
>>handling yourself should you get separated, either by accident or by
>>choice, then I think you probably need some mobility training.  I hate
>>making generalizations but, I think, that's a safe one to make.
>>   Best,
>>Kirt
>>
>>On 4/4/13, Carly Mihalakis <carlymih at comcast.net> wrote:
>> > Good morning, Jess,,
>> >
>> > If you considder the plight of a guide dog, it is most often  that
>> > they are trained to deny their dog-ness, what MaMa nature inscribed
>> > in its DNA I.E not barking or humping a leg, at times of being moved
>> > to do so, not begging, being drug places unsuited for pooches. My
>> > suggestion would be, for the poor dog's sake, to buddy up with a
>> > friend, and let notions of independence go, at least for Fido's sake?
>> > I know this will probably cause a shit storm, but there it is.
>> > Have a great day, and, keep on smilin'! Car
>> > ,
>> >
>> > Seeems toAt 04:54 AM 4/2/2013, you wrote:
>> >
>> >>Hello:
>> >>Personally, and I know I'll probably get a lot of flack for this but
>> >>I honestly feel this way. I strongly feel that people with guide
>> >>dogs shouldn't be taking them to water parks anyway. I don't think
>> >>it's right that the dog has to go through so much especially at a
>> >>waterpark. I understand we want to look more independent and what
>> >>not, but putting a dog through torture like that, at a crowded
>> >>waterpark, waiting for hours and hours  possibly in lines if you
>> >>choose to stand in a line just seems inhumane to me.
>> >>Jess
>> >>
>> >>Check out my blog:
>> >>http://empowernetwork.com/jessicasilva
>> >>http://www.makemoneywithjessica.com
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>------------------------------
>> >>On Tue, Apr 2, 2013 4:55 AM MDT Carly Mihalakis wrote:
>> >>
>> >> >Good morning,
>> >> >
>> >> >         It seems to me, in the end your scores speak louder, and
>> >> >with my clarity than if you happen to have taken extra time.  I mean,
>> >> >who cares?
>> >> >Car09:35 PM 3/31/2013, justin williams wrote:
>> >> >>I take the time and a half.  Think what you want.  I can learn to
>> >> be fast on
>> >> >>a job.  I was one of the top agents at Teleperformance; still got
>> >> cheated in
>> >> >>the end.  I was one of the best agents in the call center. (Grin.)
>> >> >> No
>> >> >> but
>> >> >>seriously, I use any tool available to me.
>> >> >>
>> >> >>-----Original Message-----
>> >> >>From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Kirt
>> >> >> Manwaring
>> >> >>Sent: Tuesday, April 02, 2013 12:26 AM
>> >> >>To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
>> >> >>Subject: Re:                    [nabs-l] Lines
>> >> >>
>> >> >>Justin,
>> >> >>   In high school I took the extra time way more than I should have;
>> >> >> in
>> >> >>hindsight, I was using it to hide the fact that I wasn't as
>> >> >> efficient
>> >> >> with
>> >> >>braille as my peers were with print.  I know this is an entirely
>> >> >> different
>> >> >>subject, but I think extra time is legitimate only when inherently
>> >> >> visual
>> >> >>information like pictures and complex graphs need to be presented
>> >> >> tactally
>> >> >>or verbally.  Even then, it ought to be used with care because, as
>> >> >> has
>> >> >> been
>> >> >>said ad noseum, you can't get the "time and a half" on the job.
>> >> >>   Best,
>> >> >>Kirt
>> >> >>
>> >> >>On 3/31/13, justin williams <justin.williams2 at gmail.com> wrote:
>> >> >> > Do you take the time and a half on tests?
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > -----Original Message-----
>> >> >> > From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of
>> >> >> > Arielle
>> >> >> > Silverman
>> >> >> > Sent: Monday, April 01, 2013 11:04 PM
>> >> >> > To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> >> >> > Subject: [nabs-l] Lines
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > Hi all,
>> >> >> > Thank you Kirt for making such a great point. When I was growing
>> >> >> > up
>> >> >> > my
>> >> >> > parents and friends often pressured me to use my blindness so
>> >> >> > that
>> >> >> > we
>> >> >> > could cut lines and sometimes my parents even required it without
>> >> >> > giving me a choice about it. I used to try and justify our
>> >> >> > behavior
>> >> >> > but in  the end when I did this I always felt a deep sense of
>> >> >> > shame
>> >> >> > and anger, but I could never figure out why. Since then I have
>> >> >> > learned
>> >> >> > about self-perception theory in psychology classes and I think I
>> >> >> > understand why it bothers me (and many of
>> >> >> > us) so much. Basically, self-perception theory posits that we
>> >> >> > draw
>> >> >> > conclusions about ourselves by observing our own behavior. I
>> >> >> > think
>> >> >> > whenever I used my blindness as a reason to get a guest pass and
>> >> >> > skip
>> >> >> > the line, it made me start to see myself as a handicapped or
>> >> >> > crippled
>> >> >> > person, which was very upsetting. For some people who have
>> >> >> > trouble
>> >> >> > standing for long periods of time, or who have guide dogs who get
>> >> >> > uncomfortable standing out in the sun, cutting in line seems
>> >> >> > legitimate. But if we can physically handle the lines, accepting
>> >> >> > the
>> >> >> > special passes doesn't do us any real favors. I insist on
>> >> >> > standing
>> >> >> > in
>> >> >> > line with everyone else because I want to see myself (and my
>> >> >> > fellow
>> >> >> > blind friends) as strong, healthy, normal people. I feel I have
>> >> >> > little
>> >> >> > to gain by skipping the lines, and much to lose in terms of
>> >> >> > self-esteem and self-respect. I think every time we take an
>> >> >> > accommodation, we need to think about what we are gaining from
>> >> >> > that
>> >> >> > accommodation vs. what we are potentially losing in terms of
>> >> >> > normalcy.
>> >> >> > If an accommodation like a piece of technology is  truly
>> >> >> > necessary,
>> >> >> > it
>> >> >> > will give enough benefit that it's worth the self-esteem hit. But
>> >> >> > if
>> >> >> > an accommodation isn't really needed, I think we have more to
>> >> >> > lose
>> >> >> > than we have to gain by accepting it. For this same reason I also
>> >> >> > do
>> >> >> > not write off blindness as a reason to claim a tax deduction.
>> >> >> > I am proud to be (barely) earning enough income to be required to
>> >> >> > pay
>> >> >> > taxes and paying taxes just like anyone else in my income bracket
>> >> >> > makes me feel good about myself and where I belong in the world.
>> >> >> > There's also the argument that if we want to be allowed the same
>> >> >> > rights sighted people get, we need to be willing to saddle the
>> >> >> > extra
>> >> >> > responsibilities. If we want to be allowed to ride amusement park
>> >> >> > rides without discrimination, we need to be willing to wait in
>> >> >> > line.
>> >> >> > It sends a mixed message to skip the line and then insist on
>> >> >> > equal
>> >> >> > treatment by the ride operators, just like it sends a mixed
>> >> >> > message
>> >> >> > to
>> >> >> > request unnecessary extra time on tests and then ask for a
>> >> >> > professor's
>> >> >> > letter of recommendation.
>> >> >> > Again, though I'm not a dog user, I think having a guide dog is a
>> >> >> > legitimate reason to not wait in lines.
>> >> >> > Arielle
>> >> >> >
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>> >> >> >
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