[nagdu] Dogs Barking and growling

Fri Nov 14 17:47:24 UTC 2008

I have now had four dogs over a period of about 30 years. None of them have
been barkers. I do not appreciate dogs barking and growling at the door.
This is because I don't want them to get out of control or misunderstand
their function. I have had dogs growl lowly when people walked outside my
door and as long as it was only to let me know that they were there and the
person outside to be warned I didn't reprimand. The key, I think is whether
the behavior becomes a problem either for those in the neighborhood, or the
dog becomes aggressive. The dogs function is to be a "guide" not a "guard".
If the behavior is not checked and monitored the problem can really get out
of hand. This is particularly true if the dog begins to act as though it is
appropriate to bark at other dogs on the street or to bark in places of
business. Like it or not, when you walk out on the street with your guide
you represent all dog guide schools and all blind people. It's best to put
your best foot (or paw) forward. 

All of my dogs have been retrievers and probably would have a heart attack
if another dog actually became aggressive toward them. In fact, I have been
in situations where I passed dogs on the street who were growling at us and
my dog was wagging its tail. On occasion, my current dog, a small yellow
lab, has barked through the fence at my neighbor's "ankle biter ". If she
tries to continue this behavior more than a bark I reprimand her. I think
that we do have to remember that they are dogs and dogs do growl inn play
and even bark a little. Also, we must remember that every dog is different
and avoid judging the behavior of another user's dog. Ironically, as I am
writing this email my sweet little partner is making little growling noises
as she plays tug-a-war with her kong. Of course, her tail is wagging a mile
an hour while she does this and she is holding the kong gently as she tugs. 

One thing to keep in mind however, is the policy of ownership is not the
same for all schools. My dog is mine. Unless I was abusing it, she can't be
taken away from me. That isn't exactly the same for all schools. No matter
what school you received your dog from, however, you are the user and a part
of a partnership so your decisions should be respected. 

Joy Relton and Bell,
Greater Springfield Chapter 
Springfield, VA
-----Original Message-----
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Sent: Thursday, November 13, 2008 1:00 PM
To: nagdu at nfbnet.org
Subject: nagdu Digest, Vol 44, Issue 12

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Today's Topics:

   1. Re: guide dog schools and dogs growling and barking
      (Margo and Elmo)
   2. Re: Nyagdu officers (Margo and Elmo)
   3. Re: guide dog schools and dogs growling and barking ( Hope Paulos)
   4. Re: guide dog schools and dogs growling and barking (Craig Borne)
   5. Re: guide dog schools and dogs growling and barking
      (JULIE PHILLIPSON)
   6. Re: guide dog schools and dogs growling and barking
      (JULIE PHILLIPSON)
   7. Re: Nyagdu officers (Marion & Martin)
   8. Re: Growling and your guide dog school (Toni Whaley)
   9. Re: guide dog schools and dogs growling and barking (Charlene Ota)
  10. Re: Growling and your guide dog school (AnnaLisa Anderson)
  11. Re: Growling and your guide dog school (Charlene Ota)
  12. Re: guide dog schools and dogs growling and barking
      (Pickrell, Rebecca M.)
  13. Bubba in the woods (Tracy Carcione)
  14. Re: Nyagdu officers (Margo and Elmo)
  15. Re: guide dog schools and dogs growling and barking (Charlene Ota)
  16. Re: Bubba in the woods (John Doering)
  17. Re: Bubba in the woods (Julie J.)
  18. Re: Bubba in the woods (Angie Matney)
  19. Re: guide dog schools and dogs growling and barking
      (Pickrell, Rebecca M.)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Message: 1
Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2008 13:37:19 -0500
From: "Margo and Elmo" <margo.downey at verizon.net>
Subject: Re: [nagdu] guide dog schools and dogs growling and barking
To: "NAGDU Mailing List,	the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
	<nagdu at nfbnet.org>
Message-ID: <5F8230E11DEA45668AE1D21312404831 at demoPC>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=iso-8859-1;
	reply-type=original

Craig, I'm with you on this.  It's the situation.

Elmo feels he needs to be a dog bell when the doorbell rings or someone 
knocks and he barks up a storm.  he does not bark in public.  he has emitted

a few low growls at home inside our home if he didn't like what he was 
hearing outside and he play growls when playing with another dog.

Margo and Elmo
----- Original Message ----- 
From: <craig.borne at dot.gov>
To: <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Wednesday, November 12, 2008 10:41 AM
Subject: Re: [nagdu] guide dog schools and dogs growling and barking

> Doesn't it matter in what situation the dog growls or barks?  Ollie 
> may growl or bark at another dog, if that other dog is off leash and 
> in Ollie's face.  Under that set of circumstances, I can't say I blame 
> him.
>
> Ollie is also in the habit of barking when our door bell rings or 
> someone knocks at our door (not when the same is done when we are 
> visiting others at their home).  At first, I tried to curb this 
> behavior, but then I came to the conclusion that I actually like him 
> alerting me to when someone is at the door.
>
> Barking and growling at someone or something on the other side of the 
> street or on leash is not a very good trait in a guide dog, but the 
> alternatives described above frankly do not bother me, regardless of 
> whether or not the dog school agrees.
>
> Craig
>
> Craig Borne
> NHTSA/DOT
> (202) 493-0627
> craig.borne at dot.gov
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On 
> Behalf Of cheryl echevarria
> Sent: Wednesday, November 12, 2008 9:28 AM
> To: nagdu
> Cc: New York Association of Guide Dog Users
> Subject: [nagdu] guide dog schools and dogs growling and barking
>
> I am not a liberty to mention names or dogs or schools.
>
> But there has been some talk and I would like to ask.
>
> hypothetically speaking, if a dog growls or barks, should the school 
> tell you to retire your dog, I mean I own maxx I had that option but 
> lets say you
> don't own your dog out right, and the dog is a good worker other than
> the
> little growls and barking.  Is that any reason to retire a dog.
>
> Thank you.\
>
> Cheryl Echevarria
> Treasurer
> National Federation of the Blind
> Greater Long Island Chapter
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> nagdu mailing list
> nagdu at nfbnet.org 
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> nagdu: 
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> ot
> .gov
>
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------------------------------

Message: 2
Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2008 13:39:24 -0500
From: "Margo and Elmo" <margo.downey at verizon.net>
Subject: Re: [nagdu] Nyagdu officers
To: "NAGDU Mailing List,	the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
	<nagdu at nfbnet.org>
Message-ID: <CB8119E8C71C4654BE70FD21E43058BE at demoPC>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=iso-8859-1;
	reply-type=original

thanks.  We're working on a better Internet presence right now and we have a

willing Webmaster to help us make it look good.  We've started doing 
education of employees about service animals.  We will soon have a 
conference call. and we've got a lot of other things up our sleeves and 
we'll keep you posted.

We want to stay connected with the rest of our NAGDU and NFB brothers and 
sisters as well.

margo and Elmo
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Sherrill O'Brien" <sherrill.obrien at verizon.net>
To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users" 
<nagdu at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Wednesday, November 12, 2008 12:16 PM
Subject: Re: [nagdu] Nyagdu officers

> Hi Margo,
> Congratulations to you, and your other enthusiastic new leaders!! 
> Sherrill
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org]On
> Behalf Of Margo and Elmo
> Sent: Tuesday, November 11, 2008 5:43 PM
> To: nagdu at nfbnet.org
> Subject: [nagdu] Nyagdu officers
>
>
> The new York Association of Guide dog users held our divison meeting
> during
> our state convention.  the following officers were elected to finish the
> last year of the President and Vice President terms.  our president and 
> Vice
> president needed to step down due to life circumstances.  We thank and
> apprecaite Lucy Cox and Shelly Bamrick for their service to this
> organization and look forward to continue working with them.
>
> Our new president and Vice president are:
>
> margo Downey, president
> Joyce Carrico, vice president
>
> Julie Phillipson is our Secretary-Treasurer.
>
> Our division is small in number but bit in energy and enthusiasm.  of 
> course, we want a lot more energy and enthusiasm so we are embarking 
> on finding more members.
>
> We'll keep our nagdu brothers and sisters up to date on our actions,
> events,
> accomplishments, incidents, and so on.
>
> We look forward to connecting with and working with everyone in the
> national
> Federation of the Blind.
>
> margo Downey and Elmo downey 
> _______________________________________________
> nagdu mailing list
> nagdu at nfbnet.org 
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
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> nagdu:
>
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> izon.net
>
>
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n.net 

------------------------------

Message: 3
Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2008 16:32:50 -0500
From: " Hope Paulos" <hope.paulos at maine.edu>
Subject: Re: [nagdu] guide dog schools and dogs growling and barking
To: "NAGDU Mailing List,	the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
	<nagdu at nfbnet.org>
Message-ID: <DNEOIJHNKJLGPIFENCKDIEKICCAA.hope.paulos at maine.edu>
Content-Type: text/plain;	charset="us-ascii"

I also have to agree. Beignet will hackle and bark at squirrels or other
critters outside our home, but she never barks while working. She'll also
play growl if I'm pulling on a toy (tail wagging all the while). Shepherds
are much more vocal, too. I'm not sure what breeds of dog Margo and Craig
have, but shepherds can be a lot more vocal. I too believe it depends on the
situation. If the dog constantly growled/barked at other dogs and became
distracted while working, it would be concerning and the person should call
the school to  attempt to extinguish this behavior.

Hope and Beignet

-----Original Message-----
From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org]On
Behalf Of Margo and Elmo
Sent: Wednesday, November 12, 2008 1:37 PM
To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
Subject: Re: [nagdu] guide dog schools and dogs growling and barking

Craig, I'm with you on this.  It's the situation.

Elmo feels he needs to be a dog bell when the doorbell rings or someone
knocks and he barks up a storm.  he does not bark in public.  he has emitted
a few low growls at home inside our home if he didn't like what he was
hearing outside and he play growls when playing with another dog.

Margo and Elmo
----- Original Message -----
From: <craig.borne at dot.gov>
To: <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Wednesday, November 12, 2008 10:41 AM
Subject: Re: [nagdu] guide dog schools and dogs growling and barking

> Doesn't it matter in what situation the dog growls or barks?  Ollie 
> may growl or bark at another dog, if that other dog is off leash and 
> in Ollie's face.  Under that set of circumstances, I can't say I blame 
> him.
>
> Ollie is also in the habit of barking when our door bell rings or 
> someone knocks at our door (not when the same is done when we are 
> visiting others at their home).  At first, I tried to curb this 
> behavior, but then I came to the conclusion that I actually like him 
> alerting me to when someone is at the door.
>
> Barking and growling at someone or something on the other side of the 
> street or on leash is not a very good trait in a guide dog, but the 
> alternatives described above frankly do not bother me, regardless of 
> whether or not the dog school agrees.
>
> Craig
>
> Craig Borne
> NHTSA/DOT
> (202) 493-0627
> craig.borne at dot.gov
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On 
> Behalf Of cheryl echevarria
> Sent: Wednesday, November 12, 2008 9:28 AM
> To: nagdu
> Cc: New York Association of Guide Dog Users
> Subject: [nagdu] guide dog schools and dogs growling and barking
>
> I am not a liberty to mention names or dogs or schools.
>
> But there has been some talk and I would like to ask.
>
> hypothetically speaking, if a dog growls or barks, should the school 
> tell you to retire your dog, I mean I own maxx I had that option but 
> lets say you
> don't own your dog out right, and the dog is a good worker other than
> the
> little growls and barking.  Is that any reason to retire a dog.
>
> Thank you.\
>
> Cheryl Echevarria
> Treasurer
> National Federation of the Blind
> Greater Long Island Chapter
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> nagdu mailing list
> nagdu at nfbnet.org 
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> nagdu: 
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/craig.borne%40d
> ot
> .gov
>
> _______________________________________________
> nagdu mailing list
> nagdu at nfbnet.org 
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> nagdu:
>
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n.net

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------------------------------

Message: 4
Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2008 18:12:23 -0500
From: "Craig Borne" <cjborne at comcast.net>
Subject: Re: [nagdu] guide dog schools and dogs growling and barking
To: "'NAGDU Mailing List,	the National Association of Guide Dog
	Users'" <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
Message-ID: <004801c9451c$1f3f9030$6700a8c0 at computer>
Content-Type: text/plain;	charset="us-ascii"

Ollie is a Shepard.
Craig

Craig Borne, Esq. 
Baltimore, Maryland
"A long habit of not thinking a thing wrong, gives it a superficial
appearance of being right, and raises at first a formidable outcry in
defense of custom."  --Thomas Paine, Common Sense

-----Original Message-----
From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf
Of Hope Paulos
Sent: Wednesday, November 12, 2008 4:33 PM
To: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users
Subject: Re: [nagdu] guide dog schools and dogs growling and barking

I also have to agree. Beignet will hackle and bark at squirrels or other
critters outside our home, but she never barks while working. She'll also
play growl if I'm pulling on a toy (tail wagging all the while). Shepherds
are much more vocal, too. I'm not sure what breeds of dog Margo and Craig
have, but shepherds can be a lot more vocal. I too believe it depends on the
situation. If the dog constantly growled/barked at other dogs and became
distracted while working, it would be concerning and the person should call
the school to  attempt to extinguish this behavior.

Hope and Beignet

-----Original Message-----
From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org]On
Behalf Of Margo and Elmo
Sent: Wednesday, November 12, 2008 1:37 PM
To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
Subject: Re: [nagdu] guide dog schools and dogs growling and barking

Craig, I'm with you on this.  It's the situation.

Elmo feels he needs to be a dog bell when the doorbell rings or someone
knocks and he barks up a storm.  he does not bark in public.  he has emitted
a few low growls at home inside our home if he didn't like what he was
hearing outside and he play growls when playing with another dog.

Margo and Elmo
----- Original Message -----
From: <craig.borne at dot.gov>
To: <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Wednesday, November 12, 2008 10:41 AM
Subject: Re: [nagdu] guide dog schools and dogs growling and barking

> Doesn't it matter in what situation the dog growls or barks?  Ollie 
> may growl or bark at another dog, if that other dog is off leash and 
> in Ollie's face.  Under that set of circumstances, I can't say I blame 
> him.
>
> Ollie is also in the habit of barking when our door bell rings or 
> someone knocks at our door (not when the same is done when we are 
> visiting others at their home).  At first, I tried to curb this 
> behavior, but then I came to the conclusion that I actually like him 
> alerting me to when someone is at the door.
>
> Barking and growling at someone or something on the other side of the 
> street or on leash is not a very good trait in a guide dog, but the 
> alternatives described above frankly do not bother me, regardless of 
> whether or not the dog school agrees.
>
> Craig
>
> Craig Borne
> NHTSA/DOT
> (202) 493-0627
> craig.borne at dot.gov
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On 
> Behalf Of cheryl echevarria
> Sent: Wednesday, November 12, 2008 9:28 AM
> To: nagdu
> Cc: New York Association of Guide Dog Users
> Subject: [nagdu] guide dog schools and dogs growling and barking
>
> I am not a liberty to mention names or dogs or schools.
>
> But there has been some talk and I would like to ask.
>
> hypothetically speaking, if a dog growls or barks, should the school 
> tell you to retire your dog, I mean I own maxx I had that option but 
> lets say you
> don't own your dog out right, and the dog is a good worker other than
> the
> little growls and barking.  Is that any reason to retire a dog.
>
> Thank you.\
>
> Cheryl Echevarria
> Treasurer
> National Federation of the Blind
> Greater Long Island Chapter
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> nagdu mailing list
> nagdu at nfbnet.org 
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> nagdu: 
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/craig.borne%40d
> ot
> .gov
>
> _______________________________________________
> nagdu mailing list
> nagdu at nfbnet.org 
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> nagdu:
>
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n.net

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------------------------------

Message: 5
Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2008 18:27:51 -0500
From: "JULIE PHILLIPSON" <jbrew48 at verizon.net>
Subject: Re: [nagdu] guide dog schools and dogs growling and barking
To: "NAGDU Mailing List,	the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
	<nagdu at nfbnet.org>
Message-ID: <3DE386928C5F403B8F81F7FA3637E177 at phillipson>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
	reply-type=response

in my opinion no as long as it is once in a while and not out of control and

the owner takes appropriate action to discourage the behavior. Julie
Phillipson
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "cheryl echevarria" <cherylandmaxx at hotmail.com>
To: "nagdu" <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
Cc: "New York Association of Guide Dog Users" <NYAgdu at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Wednesday, November 12, 2008 9:27 AM
Subject: [nagdu] guide dog schools and dogs growling and barking

>I am not a liberty to mention names or dogs or schools.
>
> But there has been some talk and I would like to ask.
>
> hypothetically speaking, if a dog growls or barks, should the school 
> tell
> you to retire your dog, I mean I own maxx I had that option but lets say 
> you don't own your dog out right, and the dog is a good worker other than 
> the little growls and barking.  Is that any reason to retire a dog.
>
> Thank you.\
>
> Cheryl Echevarria
> Treasurer
> National Federation of the Blind
> Greater Long Island Chapter
>
> _______________________________________________
> nagdu mailing list
> nagdu at nfbnet.org 
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> nagdu:
>
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/jbrew48%40verizon.net

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10:01 AM

------------------------------

Message: 6
Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2008 18:30:36 -0500
From: "JULIE PHILLIPSON" <jbrew48 at verizon.net>
Subject: Re: [nagdu] guide dog schools and dogs growling and barking
To: "NAGDU Mailing List,	the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
	<nagdu at nfbnet.org>
Message-ID: <54F8EF7223CB46AE9B25D047BDF39BE6 at phillipson>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
	reply-type=response

Some times people might mistake a grown and think it is a growl believe it 
or not I had that happen with a previous dog and GEB was called about it. 
It was a hot day and he was just settling down at a meeting and getting 
comfortable.

Julie Phillipson
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "cheryl echevarria" <cherylandmaxx at hotmail.com>
To: "nagdu" <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
Cc: "New York Association of Guide Dog Users" <NYAgdu at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Wednesday, November 12, 2008 9:27 AM
Subject: [nagdu] guide dog schools and dogs growling and barking

>I am not a liberty to mention names or dogs or schools.
>
> But there has been some talk and I would like to ask.
>
> hypothetically speaking, if a dog growls or barks, should the school 
> tell
> you to retire your dog, I mean I own maxx I had that option but lets say 
> you don't own your dog out right, and the dog is a good worker other than 
> the little growls and barking.  Is that any reason to retire a dog.
>
> Thank you.\
>
> Cheryl Echevarria
> Treasurer
> National Federation of the Blind
> Greater Long Island Chapter
>
> _______________________________________________
> nagdu mailing list
> nagdu at nfbnet.org 
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> nagdu:
>
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/jbrew48%40verizon.net

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------------------------------

Message: 7
Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2008 20:22:09 -0500
From: "Marion & Martin" <swampfox1833 at verizon.net>
Subject: Re: [nagdu] Nyagdu officers
To: "NAGDU Mailing List,	the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
	<nagdu at nfbnet.org>
Message-ID: <001d01c9452e$40950550$6501a8c0 at marion475ae1fe>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=iso-8859-1;
	reply-type=response

Margo,
    Before you begin the training, it might be good for us to have a 
teleconference call as a "Train the Trainer" workshop. I want to make sure 
that we are all on the same page and providing accurate information. We need

to remember that we are representing a national organization and do not want

to do anything that could compromise the integrity of the NFB.

Fraternally,
Marion

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Margo and Elmo" <margo.downey at verizon.net>
To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users" 
<nagdu at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Wednesday, November 12, 2008 1:39 PM
Subject: Re: [nagdu] Nyagdu officers

> thanks.  We're working on a better Internet presence right now and we 
> have
> a willing Webmaster to help us make it look good.  We've started doing 
> education of employees about service animals.  We will soon have a 
> conference call. and we've got a lot of other things up our sleeves and 
> we'll keep you posted.
>
> We want to stay connected with the rest of our NAGDU and NFB brothers 
> and
> sisters as well.
>
> margo and Elmo
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Sherrill O'Brien" <sherrill.obrien at verizon.net>
> To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users" 
> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Wednesday, November 12, 2008 12:16 PM
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Nyagdu officers
>
>
>> Hi Margo,
>> Congratulations to you, and your other enthusiastic new leaders!! 
>> Sherrill
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org]On
>> Behalf Of Margo and Elmo
>> Sent: Tuesday, November 11, 2008 5:43 PM
>> To: nagdu at nfbnet.org
>> Subject: [nagdu] Nyagdu officers
>>
>>
>> The new York Association of Guide dog users held our divison meeting
>> during
>> our state convention.  the following officers were elected to finish the
>> last year of the President and Vice President terms.  our president and 
>> Vice
>> president needed to step down due to life circumstances.  We thank and
>> apprecaite Lucy Cox and Shelly Bamrick for their service to this
>> organization and look forward to continue working with them.
>>
>> Our new president and Vice president are:
>>
>> margo Downey, president
>> Joyce Carrico, vice president
>>
>> Julie Phillipson is our Secretary-Treasurer.
>>
>> Our division is small in number but bit in energy and enthusiasm.  of 
>> course, we want a lot more energy and enthusiasm so we are embarking 
>> on finding more members.
>>
>> We'll keep our nagdu brothers and sisters up to date on our actions,
>> events,
>> accomplishments, incidents, and so on.
>>
>> We look forward to connecting with and working with everyone in the
>> national
>> Federation of the Blind.
>>
>> margo Downey and Elmo downey 
>> _______________________________________________
>> nagdu mailing list
>> nagdu at nfbnet.org 
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> nagdu:
>>
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/sherrill.obrien%40ver
>> izon.net
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> nagdu mailing list
>> nagdu at nfbnet.org 
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> nagdu:
>>
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/margo.downey%40verizo
n.net
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> nagdu mailing list
> nagdu at nfbnet.org 
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> nagdu:
>
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n.net 

------------------------------

Message: 8
Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2008 00:14:51 -0500
From: "Toni Whaley" <blind_treasurer at verizon.net>
Subject: Re: [nagdu] Growling and your guide dog school
To: "'NAGDU Mailing List,	the National Association of Guide Dog
	Users'"	<nagdu at nfbnet.org>
Message-ID: <000c01c9454e$c49f4e30$0201a8c0 at 855548xtyj1>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Hello! 

I agree with Jenine's message. When I was considering getting a guide dog
over 29 years ago, I had had contact with guide dogs who barked andor
growled in the work place. Since I had a child in daycare and had frequent
contact with the public as a Board member of a local organization for the
blind, I didn't want that kind of dog. Most of my dogs have barked when
people have come to the house. Indeed, they've even barked when we came home
and they hadn't accompanied us. However, when workig they never barked. My
recently retired guide dog barked twice during home training. The instructor
felt this was due to stress. Indeed, two weeks after training completed, he
called to see if the dog was barking. He never barked after those two times
in training. And, even now, he does not bark at my daughter's home. In
short, I would not continue to work a dog if it continually displayed
aggressive or disruptive behavior while working.

Toni

-----Original Message-----
From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf
Of Jenine Stanley
Sent: Wednesday, November 12, 2008 12:19 PM
To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
Subject: [nagdu] Growling and your guide dog school

OK, my 2.5 cents worth here, not as a school employee, but as a handler
first and foremost. 

I completely understand behaviors like a bark or two out of surprise or at
home at the doorbell. You can even train this as a controlled behavior. 

Growling, and this is just me, again really depends but is more serious. A
startled growl at a strange object or person appearing from nowhere, once in
a while probably isn't anything to worry about, but something to be aware of
and track. 

Things really change depending on what you do for a living too. The average
guide dog handler, working in an office, might not think much of the
occasional growl, until coworkers start to complain or avoid him/her because
of the dog. This is happening to someone I know now with a mostly black
shepherd who growls and barks now and then at people in the office. People
are terrified of the dog though he's wagging his tail all the while. 

If you work in an occupation where you have to deal with the public a lot,
like sales, floor shows, things like that, the suspicion growls or barks now
and then don't help your personal image. Trust me, even before my work with
the school, I sold jewelry at conventions and a growling dog under the booth
wasn't exactly helping sales, even if she only growled once. Word spreads
fast, especially among blind people and handlers are a pretty judgmental
group, rightly or wrongly. 

I've had a growling dog who started out with small growls when dogs were
inappropriately poking their heads under my display table at conventions.
This quickly escalated and I never  knew exactly which dogs she'd growl at
or why. I observed, tracked, had instructors observe, and there seemed no
rhyme or reason to why she disliked certain dogs and not others. 

When this behavior began, I was on the board of directors at my school. I
owned my dog outright. They made suggestions about considering retirement,
only after giving me tons of help on how to stop the growling. We tried
everything and just when I thought I had it stopped for good, something else
would spark another growl and it would escalate from there. 

I know people were upset, especially those whose dogs had been attacked by
other dogs, both loose and in harness. Yes, guide dogs and service dogs do
attack each other, sadly. I could completely understand the outright fear my
dog's innocent growl of warning sent through them. I often said though, as
did others, that if she'd had pointy ears, people would have just chalked
her behavior up to being a shepherd, but even shepherd handlers said that
talking is one thing, but growling suspiciously is quite another and not
acceptable. 

My dog got to the point that she was beginning to snap at other dogs. By
this time the behavior had some predictable aspects, confinement being the
most obvious. 

This is not the case for every dog of course. Some just bark or growl now
and then. That brings up though, your job or volunteer work. 

Say you work at a school or volunteer with children. Those barks and growls
quickly get misinterpreted. Giant stories start about that horrible guide
dog from School X and how it bit someone, whether it did or not. 

My dog was accused of biting another guide when she growled at it. I
happened to be walking with an instructor who tried to explain to the very
upset person that my dog was 6 feet away from hers and could not have
possibly bitten her dog, but she would not listen and swore my dog bit hers.
I again completely understand this level of irrationality if your dog has
been attacked before as hers had. There were probably at least 6 other guide
dogs around her, most much closer than mine,  and not one of them growled. 

I personally as a handler don't want to live that way, even with a
spectacular dog like the one I had. I was tense because I didn't know when
she'd go off and I felt an obligation to other handlers not to pose even a
perceived threat. I wouldn't want someone just blithely working a dog who
might be excellent at the work but very suspicious of other dogs or just a
growler for no reason. Aren't our dogs generally supposed to be quiet in
public, save for the odd startled response? 

Things changed for me when I became an employee of the school. They never
said, "Jenine, you will retire that dog." they did say that she could not
work with me during school events and since that was when she did most of
her work, well, the prudent thing for all involved was to retire her. 

Think about this. When you see a representative of a guide dog school, you
don't expect the dog to be perfect, but you also don't look favorably on a
dog who growls, barks or is otherwise not under good control. Sometimes it's
the dog. Sometimes it's the handler, but what's the impression of that
school? "Oh, that's School X. the dog I saw from there growled and lunged at
other dogs. I hope all their dogs aren't like that." 

This summer in the exhibit hall at NFB, a generally great place for the dogs
btw, there were a couple scraps. What was the first thing people asked?
"Where was that dog from?" meaning which school. 

You have to think about this if you do volunteer work for your school as
well. Even if your dog growls only a few times a year, if it does so at a
school event, or if you're not sure, you're a risk to the school. That's not
meant as a slap to you or your dog. It's just the reality of PR. 

You have a couple choices. I did and I know my school gives these choices to
others in the same situation. 

1. I continue to work my dog but do not bring her to any school events or
times when I volunteer for the school. 2. I retire my dog. 

At that point it's up to me. 

The guilt, anger, frustration and yes even fear accompanying retiring a dog
for growling and barking are so huge they'd take up many other posts. I have
to say that retiring Molly really messed with my head. Was I not a good
enough handler to stop her behavior? Why did the school put out such a dog?
She didn't start growling until about 1.5 years into our partnership btw.
How dare they tell me to retire her? She was a perfectly good guide. 

I had to get past those stages and look at a bigger picture. You give
something up when a problem like growling or barking is persistent enough
that people know you by it. I've cringed at school events when volunteers'
dogs have growled, when my dog growled. I know both the public embarrassment
of the school and the private frustration and embarrassment of the handler
and instructors. 

None of it's easy but you really do have to think beyond yourself in some
circumstances, your work, your volunteer activities, etc. 

Again, these are not the opinions of GDF or anyone on staff. I'm speaking as
a handler who happens to be an employee. 

 Jenine Stanley
jeninems at wowway.com

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------------------------------

Message: 9
Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2008 19:36:06 -1000
From: "Charlene Ota" <caota at hawaii.rr.com>
Subject: Re: [nagdu] guide dog schools and dogs growling and barking
To: "'NAGDU Mailing List,	the National Association of Guide Dog
	Users'" <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
Message-ID: <1CA8E72F219741438BDAED595E087657 at Charlene>
Content-Type: text/plain;	charset="us-ascii"

My dog barks a little when someone comes in our yard or to the door but
that's about it.  Heavens!  I sure wouldn't retire the boy for that for
goodness sake!  (smile!)  Oh, and once at our local NFB convention, in a
little movie thing some dog barked and he did that half bark thing maybe you
call it a mumble/bark or something and I told him to be quiet but that was
it.  No big deal!

On a more serious side of it, though, I think it is kind od frustrating when
dogs bark out in public, you know, the full on barking at other dogs in
restaurants and such.  I wish people would at least attempt to control such
behavior and I've seen some who do and some who don't. I guess if it really
gout out of hand and couldn't be stopped it might be reason for a person to
retire the dog because it isn't good behavior out in public. It's something
that would surely have to be looked at in context. There's always that
special situation that sounds so strange to the rest of us, but when you
look at it, sometimes it can't be helped.

Charlene 

-----Original Message-----
From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf
Of craig.borne at dot.gov
Sent: Wednesday, November 12, 2008 5:41 AM
To: nagdu at nfbnet.org
Subject: Re: [nagdu] guide dog schools and dogs growling and barking

Doesn't it matter in what situation the dog growls or barks?  Ollie may
growl or bark at another dog, if that other dog is off leash and in Ollie's
face.  Under that set of circumstances, I can't say I blame him.

Ollie is also in the habit of barking when our door bell rings or someone
knocks at our door (not when the same is done when we are visiting others at
their home).  At first, I tried to curb this behavior, but then I came to
the conclusion that I actually like him alerting me to when someone is at
the door.

Barking and growling at someone or something on the other side of the street
or on leash is not a very good trait in a guide dog, but the alternatives
described above frankly do not bother me, regardless of whether or not the
dog school agrees.

Craig

Craig Borne
NHTSA/DOT
(202) 493-0627
craig.borne at dot.gov

-----Original Message-----
From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf
Of cheryl echevarria
Sent: Wednesday, November 12, 2008 9:28 AM
To: nagdu
Cc: New York Association of Guide Dog Users
Subject: [nagdu] guide dog schools and dogs growling and barking

I am not a liberty to mention names or dogs or schools.

But there has been some talk and I would like to ask.

hypothetically speaking, if a dog growls or barks, should the school tell 
you to retire your dog, I mean I own maxx I had that option but lets say you

don't own your dog out right, and the dog is a good worker other than the 
little growls and barking.  Is that any reason to retire a dog.

Thank you.\

Cheryl Echevarria
Treasurer
National Federation of the Blind
Greater Long Island Chapter 

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nagdu:
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------------------------------

Message: 10
Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2008 23:39:12 -0600
From: "AnnaLisa Anderson" <annalisa at sector14.net>
Subject: Re: [nagdu] Growling and your guide dog school
To: "NAGDU Mailing List,	the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
	<nagdu at nfbnet.org>
Message-ID: <NIBBLHLOGLDGKGPJENNFCENHEIAA.annalisa at sector14.net>
Content-Type: text/plain;	charset="iso-8859-1"

Very well said, Jenine.  Your 2.5 cents was well worth reading. <smile>

AnnaLisa and Sundance

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------------------------------

Message: 11
Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2008 19:42:27 -1000
From: "Charlene Ota" <caota at hawaii.rr.com>
Subject: Re: [nagdu] Growling and your guide dog school
To: "'NAGDU Mailing List,	the National Association of Guide Dog
	Users'" <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
Message-ID: <5791AF9EB4F04CC0AB4972E3900D6D9E at Charlene>
Content-Type: text/plain;	charset="us-ascii"

Jenine, you really put it well.  The talk gets around so fast, too! People
start talking about someone who retired their dog because it barked and they
have no idea what really was going on and it just escalates from there.
Sometimes, I wish the good news traveled even a quarter as fast as the bad
news does!  (smile!) 

-----Original Message-----
From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf
Of Jenine Stanley
Sent: Wednesday, November 12, 2008 7:19 AM
To: 'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
Subject: [nagdu] Growling and your guide dog school