[nagdu] Jury finds IA Dept. for Blind's guidedogpolicydoesnotdiscriminate

Tue Feb 24 20:53:04 UTC 2009

What Marion means is that we, nor you, were not at the center in Iowa, we
were not in that court room, we do not know all the details of the case.
What was published in that article is only a very narrow picture of the
facts. Marion nor anyone is being patronizing. 
marsha 

-----Original Message-----
From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf
Of Pickrell, Rebecca M (IT)
Sent: Tuesday, February 24, 2009 2:10 PM
To: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users
Subject: Re: [nagdu] Jury finds IA Dept. for Blind's
guidedogpolicydoesnotdiscriminate

Marion, 
How do you know what Dan or "most" understand? 
Isn't this the same patronizing attitude NFB finds so distasteful among
people who can see? 

-----Original Message-----
From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
Behalf Of Marion & Martin
Sent: Monday, February 23, 2009 8:34 AM
To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
Subject: Re: [nagdu] Jury finds IA Dept. for Blind's guide
dogpolicydoesnotdiscriminate

Dan,
    With all due respect, I nor no one else in the NFB is telling you
what to think. We are only offering our opinions, You have just as much
right to your opinion as I I also think that there is a lot more to it
than most understand; therefore, we are going to have an in-depth
discussion of this issue during our national convention. I hope you and
many others will choose to join us in Detroit and hear from the ICB and
the NFB training centers.

Fraternally,
Marion

do to mine!

----- Original Message -----
From: "Dan Weiner" <dcwein at dcwein.cnc.net>
To: "'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'" 
<nagdu at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Saturday, February 21, 2009 7:40 PM
Subject: Re: [nagdu] Jury finds IA Dept. for Blind's guide
dogpolicydoesnotdiscriminate

> Well, Marion.
>
> I respect you a lot and have since I met you low twenty years ago.
> I certainly continue to respect you.
> But, I'm afraid I don't buy the Center's position on the use of guide 
> dogs and do find it unreasonable.
>
> Apparently the motto "we are the blind leading the blind" means, "We 
> are the blind telling all the blind what to do".
>
> Now, Dan, what do you really think?--smile
>
>
> Cordially,
>
> Dan W.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On 
> Behalf Of Marion & Martin
> Sent: Saturday, February 21, 2009 7:28 PM
> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Jury finds IA Dept. for Blind's guide dog 
> policydoesnotdiscriminate
>
> Dan,
>    I'm not sure if you have the entire picture correct. I don't think 
> the basis of this law suit was that the student could not bring the 
> dog into the center. I believe the suit was that the student wanted to

> be accompanied by her guide dog during training and not be required to

> take cane travel classes. The question was posed on another list and I

> wrote a message in reply. Pasted below is my message.
>
> Shannon,
>    I will refer back to my earlier message regarding whether or not 
> schools require O&M instruction before being accepted for training. As

> to your other question about substituting one O&M instruction for 
> another, perhaps an analogy from our mutual experience will help.
>    I notice you have an MSW. I have an MS in Mental Health Counseling.

> In my undergraduate program I took a Research Methods class. I also 
> took a Research Methods class in graduate school. now, I could have 
> argued with the school that I had already had Research Methods and 
> didn't need to take it again. Of course, my arguments would not have 
> been accepted as the requirement to take their class is part of their 
> program. Furthermore, the level, scope, and complexity of the class 
> was very different in graduate school than it was in undergraduate 
> classes. Can you understand how this applies to this issue?
>
> Fraternally,
> Marion
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Dan Weiner" <dcwein at dcwein.cnc.net>
> To: "'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog
Users'"
> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Friday, February 20, 2009 2:14 PM
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Jury finds IA Dept. for Blind's guide dog 
> policydoesnotdiscriminate
>
>
>> The Iowa Center, I presume, is in the United States and there is an 
>> ADA and state laws here, it's not an island unto itself.
>>
>> If the Iowa Center were called the Iowa Cane Center, and only cane 
>> training and no other skill were offered, than maybe I could see it.
>> Still I would advocate for the dog being allowed to accompany the 
>> individual on the premises.
>>
>> Laws aren't just made for the rest of the world, blind training 
>> centers must abide by them, too.
>>
>> Referring to the dog as a visual aid  is misleading.  Obviously, the 
>> dog sees, if the dogs were b lined we probably wouldn't be using
> them--smile.
>> Every guide dog program teaches us that we're supposed to give 
>> commands to our dogs, I assume.
>>
>> The guide dog issue, or rather what I perceive the NFB leadership's 
>> approach to the guide dog issue, is the one serious divergence I have

>> with the Federation.  This is from someone who got involved when he 
>> was a teen-ager.
>>
>> Well, also I'm not favorably inclined to the NFB's position on 
>> audible pedestrian signals, also, but that's another subject.
>>
>> The obsession with white cane travel and the tacit implication that 
>> those who don't use a cane are somehow less capable, together with 
>> what I've seen as a tendency to discourage people from saying 
>> anything glowing about the dog while glorifying the cane doesn't sit 
>> well with me.
>>
>> The guide dog and the cane are different mobility aids.  I personally

>> believe the dog to be superior for my situation and my type of 
>> travel, There are things I can do easily with a dog that I would be 
>> hard-pressed to do with a cane, such as cross streets in a straight 
>> line.
>> Anyway, I've gone a bit beyond the question you posed, Rebecca.  My 
>> short answer is that, as I said state rehab centers and even NFB 
>> centers should, and in my opinion, must accommodate access with a 
>> guide dog.  I view it as an access issue and access denial.  Could it

>> be  that some people discourage the use of guide dogs because they, 
>> the dogs,  see and for no other reason?
>> I'm not sure that's true, but I'm posing the question to stir up the 
>> pot a bit.
>> My personal approach to life isn't to prove that I'm able to do 
>> things all the time independently, I mean without help.
>>
>> I would say that as an adult, I do have some idea of what my skills 
>> are and if I felt my cane skills are adequate, wanted to work my dog,

>> and received a closed-minded  access denial, I would be loathe to 
>> patronize such a program.
>> What would happen if I just wanted to attend such a program, for say,

>> my computer skills?
>>
>> Now, for the record, nothing in this post is meant to cast aspersions

>> on any of my list friends, these are just my opinions, strongly held 
>> ones, of course.
>>
>> Cordially,
>>
>> Dan W.
>>
>>
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