[nagdu] O&M, Ownership, & Leader

Wed Feb 25 16:32:35 UTC 2009

so, does this also mean that we as consumers and members of the National 
Federation of the Blind can insist on policy changes if need be?  I do not 
believe our NFB centers are exempt from insistence on policy changes if they 
need to be changed.  Is there a double standard here?  We insist on a guide 
dog school changing policies but we invite NFB center staff to answer 
questions so we understand them and their policies better?  Hmmmmmm.

Margoa ndElmo
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Marion & Martin" <swampfox1833 at verizon.net>
To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users" 
<nagdu at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Wednesday, February 25, 2009 8:52 AM
Subject: Re: [nagdu] O&M, Ownership, & Leader

> Sherri,
>    The only way the policies of any school will change is through the 
> insistance of the graduates. We need to view ourselves as consumers. As 
> consumers, we have choices. these choices influence the providers of goods 
> and services. If a consumer does not like a product or service for any 
> reason, they have the choice among other services.
>    As a consumer and leader of a consumer group, I offered valuable input 
> to the school from which I graduated. Their choice to ignore my input and 
> my representative voice has prompted me to make a different choice for my 
> next guide dog.
>
> Fraternally,
> Marion
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Sherri" <flmom2006 at gmail.com>
> To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users" 
> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Tuesday, February 24, 2009 11:37 PM
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] O&M, Ownership, & Leader
>
>
>> Dan, does this mean that you won't go back to Leader for your next dog? I 
>> too hope they change the policy.
>>
>> Sherri
>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>> From: "Dan Weiner" <dcwein at dcwein.cnc.net>
>> To: "'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users'" 
>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Tuesday, February 24, 2009 12:50 PM
>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] O&M, Ownership, & Leader
>>
>>
>>> Marion.
>>> I believe in full and unconditional ownership of our dogs.
>>> Any other policy shows that the school doesn't have trust and that 
>>> you're
>>> not an adult basically.
>>>
>>> I feel, just as you do, that Leader Dog's probationary period is a step
>>> backward.
>>> If the schools want to own our dogs, then they should come to our 
>>> houses,
>>> park our dogs four times a day, pay our veterinary bills, etc.
>>>
>>> When I've had this discussion with fellow Leader grads, or grads of 
>>> other
>>> schools, I've been told that not allowing ownership is good because it 
>>> helps
>>> avoid abuse.
>>> Well, honestly, any dasterdly  so and so who'd abuse a dog would do it
>>> whether they own the dog or not.
>>> They should be dealt with in the way any other case of animal abuse is 
>>> dealt
>>> with.
>>>
>>> I'll also add that the Seeing Eye granted ownership since 1929 and 
>>> somehow
>>> their school's grad haven't just rampantly abused their dogs so much 
>>> more
>>> than any other program.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Cordially,
>>>
>>> Dan W.
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On 
>>> Behalf
>>> Of Garry and Joy Relton
>>> Sent: Tuesday, February 24, 2009 10:26 AM
>>> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] O&M, Ownership, & Leader
>>>
>>> Marion,
>>>
>>> I agree. The ownership issue is only one of the many reasons I have 
>>> obtained
>>> my dogs from the seeing Eye.
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On 
>>> Behalf
>>> Of Marion & Martin
>>> Sent: Tuesday, February 24, 2009 8:12 AM
>>> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>>> Subject: [nagdu] O&M, Ownership, & Leader
>>>
>>>
>>> Joy,
>>>    I heard that, as well. I also know, however, that Leader Dogs does 
>>> not
>>> currently give ownership upon graduation, opting for a "probationary 
>>> lease".
>>>
>>> I feel this change is regressive and reactive. Interestingly, when they
>>> attended our convention in 2007 after they changed their policy, they 
>>> did
>>> not share this with the members. Were they trying to hide it?They tell 
>>> their
>>>
>>> graduates that this is the current trend with all of the guide dog 
>>> schools.
>>> It sounds as if they aren't being completely forthright!
>>>
>>> Fraternally,
>>> Marion Gwizdala
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Garry and Joy Relton" <relton30857 at cox.net>
>>> To: "'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'"
>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>> Sent: Monday, February 23, 2009 3:28 PM
>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Jury finds IA Dept. for Blind'sguidedog
>>> policydoesnotdiscriminate
>>>
>>>
>>>> For my own education, am I correct that Leader Dog will give cane
>>>> travel instruction to assist students enrolled in their training in
>>>> improving their orientation and mobility? I thought I read that some
>>>> where.
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>>>> Behalf Of Marsha
>>>> Sent: Friday, February 20, 2009 11:50 AM
>>>> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Jury finds IA Dept. for Blind'sguidedog
>>>> policydoes notdiscriminate
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> No school is going to admit it, but yes there are schools in which do
>>>> not require such orientation like GDB and Seeing Eye does. But of
>>>> course it all depends on the person too. Marsha
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>>>> Behalf Of Nicole B. Torcolini
>>>> Sent: Thursday, February 19, 2009 10:46 PM
>>>> To: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Jury finds IA Dept. for Blind's guidedog
>>>> policydoes notdiscriminate
>>>>
>>>> This also raises an interesting question. Supposedly, if the person
>>>> needs more mobility training, the dog guide school would not have
>>>> admitted them. In other words, are some dog guide schools not strict
>>>> enough on their mobility requirements?
>>>>
>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>> From: "sarah baebler" <wolvessarah at hotmail.com>
>>>> To: <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>>> Sent: Thursday, February 19, 2009 6:15 PM
>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Jury finds IA Dept. for Blind's guidedog
>>>> policydoes not
>>>>
>>>> discriminate
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> The way I took it was that they weren't leaving her out but wanted her
>>>> to get the fundamentals of cane travel before using the dog as a
>>>> mobility aid. Just like in the center they want you to use the cane
>>>> before if you have a dog use that.  At GDB they test us to make sure
>>>> we have good cane travel before we're accepted into the program so I
>>>> don't see why she was anti trying.  I don't want to give up traveling
>>>> with Dante all the time but I would if I was being taught on cane
>>>> travel.  Even in a new area I go out with a cane and learn the area
>>>> before I take my dog.  I just think they could have made a plan.  To
>>>> work with the cane even if she had the dog with her, or use the cane
>>>> one week the dog the next.  I just think if your learning cane travel
>>>> then use the cane.  I agree that she shouldn't have just left the dog
>>>> home for the 6 months, or not use the dog at all. I don't know maybe I
>>>> misinterpreded the article but that's what I got from it. I also think
>>>> people are too eager to sue sometimes instead of working things out.
>>>> Sarah and Dante
>>>>
>>>>> From: queen.marsha.lindsey at gmail.com
>>>>> To: nagdu at nfbnet.org
>>>>> Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2009 19:40:54 -0500
>>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Jury finds IA Dept. for Blind's guide dog
>>>>> policydoes not discriminate
>>>>>
>>>>> I do not understand myself. How is this center any different than one
>>>>> of our training centers? Even people who attend our centers can use
>>>>> their dogs.
>>>>> I
>>>>> understand the need to learn to use the cane, but if that person
>>>>> chooses to use a dog then so be it.
>>>>>
>>>>> Why do we always have to put the cane users against the guide dog
>>>>> users? Marsha
>>>>>
>>>>>
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