[nagdu] Questions about Federal regs regarding paratransit
lindagwizdak at peoplepc.com
lindagwizdak at peoplepc.com
Mon Jan 26 22:03:08 UTC 2009
Hi Ann and Everyone,
I guess I was thinking of me (smile!) aboout taking the seat on the train!
Because of my arthritis and bad feet, I WANT a seat! My main thing is about
us snapping nastily at people who want to help.
When I used to live in Boston, there was this blind woman who was incredibly
rude and nasty to anyone who tried to help her. I had pretty good vision
back then and I saw that the blind woman looked very incompetent in her
traveling. She almost fell into a hole in the sidewalk. The person who got
her head chewed off said to me that maybe she shouldn't help blind people
anymore after that treatment. I told her that we are all different and to
always make sure she asked the blind person first. Which she had done.
Here's a funny one: I was waiting to cross a busy street in my neighborhood
and I didn't have a dog at that time. This guy came up to me and asked if
he could help me across the street. The guy was old and, I suspect he had
been in one of the nearby bars. I took his arm and I helped HIM across the
street (which he needed himself - not I), thanked him, and had a good
chuckle! That street was really hard to hear the traffic on and it was
snowy out.
No, I don't think we have to or should put up with people who do not respect
our wishes and our polite declining of their offer to help. I just don't
think we need to be real obnoxious or nasty about it. Firm, yes, by all
means!
Sorry for the less than clear post. (grin)
Linda and Landon
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ann Edie" <annedie at nycap.rr.com>
To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
<nagdu at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Saturday, January 24, 2009 1:19 AM
Subject: Re: [nagdu] Questions about Federal regs regarding paratransit
> Hi, Linda and Everyone,
>
> Linda, in this case I must agree with what Chasity and Angie have said,
> that I am not required to accept accommodations that someone else, no
> matter how well-meaning, assumes I want or need, just so that that person
> will have a favorable opinion of blind people and will be willing and
> happy to provide the same accommodation to another blind person later.
> Now, let me assure you, that I would not intentionally "snap" at the
> person offering me an unwanted accommodation or help. I would politely
> decline the offered help. But if the person insisted that I should or "had
> to" accept the accommodation, I would certainly firmly refuse the supposed
> "help".
>
> Perhaps it cannot be avoided that one blind person will represent all
> blind people to an individual who has never interacted with a blind person
> before. But, if this is the case, then I would rather present blind people
> as autonomous human beings who can and do make their own decisions, rather
> than as helpless "wards" of society who require others to look out for
> their needs all the time, and who have to just wait until some kind soul
> provides them with whatever they need in any situation.
>
> I will illustrate my thinking with a couple of recent examples:
>
> A few days ago, I was walking somewhere in my own town at about 3 o'clock
> on a weekday afternoon, which happens to be dismissal time at the local
> high school which is a couple of blocks from my home. I had walked to the
> corner to cross the main street near the high school and pressed the
> button for the audible signal and was waiting for the walk cycle to begin
> so that I could cross the street. There were several school busses
> passing or waiting to turn onto the main street, so I had to listen
> carefully to hear cars and quieter vehicles over the noise of the bus
> engines. Suddenly, a woman's voice from the far side of the street
> called, "Go ahead and cross."
>
> I called back, "Thanks, I'm fine." (It has been my experience that I am
> better off not depending on the advice of passers-by on when to cross
> streets,but rather to depend on my own skills in listening to and judging
> the traffic, on the training of my guide horse, and at this particular
> intersection, on the audible signal.)
>
> Usually, when I smile and say that I am fine, the person takes me at my
> word and moves along. But in this case, the person again shouted, "Go
> ahead and cross now." Since the audible signal had not sounded, I still
> did not move into the intersection.
>
> Should I have "smiled and accepted this person's help" regardless of my
> own judgement of what is best for my safety, just so that the person would
> have a good impression of blind people and would be willing to offer help
> to the next blind person she encountered? Maybe this is your feeling, but
> I am not willing to risk my safety, so that a well-meaning, but
> unintentionally interfering stranger can go away with warm, fuzzy feelings
> about having helped a poor, blind lady.
>
> Here is another example: I am an itinerant teacher of blind children. I
> have a student in a 4th grade class in one school. The classroom teacher
> in my student's class is very nice, and I like her a lot. But she has an
> annoying habit of trying to do more things for me than I want or need, and
> of asking the students to do things for me as well.
>
> For example, she will insist on grabbing the braillewriter from the shelf
> where it is kept and bringing it to the table where I work with my
> student, instead of letting me get it or letting me ask my student to get
> it and carry it to the table. Or, if the class is going to be moving to
> one corner of the room to share the reading of a book, the teacher will
> ask a student to move a chair to that area for me, rather than letting me
> move my own chair into place. These are things which I don't believe the
> teacher would think of doing for the many other teachers, therapists, and
> aides who work in the class.
>
> These constant "offers" of help make me feel very uncomfortable for
> several reasons: First of all, I simply don't need the help, and if there
> is a situation where I don't know where something is, or where I do need
> some other type of help, I am perfectly capable of asking for information
> or assistance.
>
> Secondly, I am trying to teach my blind student by example to be more
> independent. How can I do this if I am seen as a person who "needs" help
> to do the simplest things?
>
> Thirdly, I would like to educate the other students in the class and in
> the school in general about the "normalcy" of blindness and about the
> ordinary capabilities of blind people, so that they will have realistic,
> high expectations for the abilities of my blind students as well as for
> any other blind or otherwise disabled people they encounter in their
> lives. How can I do this if I accept "help" with so many trivial,
> everyday tasks?
>
> I have tried smiling politely and declining the teacher's "offers" of
> help. But I have found that this simply does not work. I do not snap at
> the teacher; that would be unprofessional. But I have had to go ahead and
> do some of the things that the teacher has asked a student to do for me,
> just to make the point that I am perfectly capable of doing these simple
> things for myself, and that I prefer it that way.
>
> I certainly would not go to the teacher's supervisor and expect the
> supervisor to educate the teacher on my behalf. I have had several
> private, cheerful, non-confrontational conversations with the teacher on
> the subject of help versus independence, and she seems to understand my
> views in the abstract. But it seems that people need many concrete,
> practical demonstrations that blind people can do for themselves, in order
> to internalize this fact.
>
> I don't think we do ourselves any good by meakly accepting help or
> accommodations that we don't want or need. We can certainly try our best
> to decline unwanted help politely and to explain why we don't want the
> help. But there is usually not time for lengthy explanations. And
> sometimes it simply comes down to a choice between being humiliated by
> accepting custodial treatment or seeming "uppity" or rude by refusing
> well-meaning assistance. In such cases, I will opt for preserving my
> self-respect by declining or ignoring the proffered help and doing for
> myself what I feel perfectly capable of doing.
>
> By the way, I don't feel the need to "prove" that I can be 100%
> independent, or to insist on doing things myself when that is inefficient
> or would greatly inconvenience others. But when it comes to simply
> carrying out the everyday functions of living as an adult, I don't think
> we have to relinquish our independence or our self-respect just to pander
> to others' need to feel helpful.
>
> AS always, these are just my humble opinions, for your consideration.
>
> Best,
> Ann
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: <lindagwizdak at peoplepc.com>
> To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Friday, January 23, 2009 2:51 PM
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Questions about Federal regs regarding paratransit
>
>
>> Hi Chasity,
>> Don't you think there may have been a better way to deal with the
>> supervisor on the train? Don't you think it would have been better to
>> smile, take the seat and then deal with it later with the train's higher
>> ups? Wouldn't it be less stressful for you to just wait til later and
>> talk to the guy's boss?
>>
>> To me, this would have made the supervisors want to say, "The hell with
>> those @%&* blind people!" OK, maybe you wanted to stand, but I can't
>> stand much with my knees and feet. The rememberance of the nasty blind
>> gal would make him less likely to give assistance to a blind person who
>> really did need that kind of help.
>>
>> Please everyone, please think before you snap at people who are wanting
>> to be helpful. I know it gets old and it's hard sometimes (grin!). Just
>> smile and say thank you and then deal with their boss. I have had people
>> say to me that they were reluctant to give me assistance because of a
>> negative reaction from another blind person.
>>
>> The supervisor should have respected your wishes to stand on the train -
>> for sure. If you talked to the supervisor's boss, then that education
>> coould happen and they'd learn that not all blind people's needs or wants
>> are alike.
>>
>> Chasity, pleasse don't take this as me dumping on you - I understand the
>> frustration all too well of over zeolous "helpers" around! I'm just
>> saying not to get nasty at these people - they're probably doing their
>> job as they've been told by their boss. (smile!)
>> Regards,
>>
>> Linda and Landon
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Chasity Jackson" <chasityvanda at charter.net>
>> To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Friday, January 23, 2009 7:10 AM
>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Questions about Federal regs regarding paratransit
>>
>>
>>> HI Marion,
>>>
>>> Actually, when I make a reservation on paratransit, they do always ask
>>> "Will your service animal be with you?" Also, when I call cabs they do
>>> the same thing. So what do you advise we tell them when they ask?
>>>
>>> As far as transportation and people making choices for you...I had this
>>> happen while traveling with my dog about a month ago. I was standing at
>>> a metrolink station waiting for the train. Chris and I had his luggage,
>>> because he had just returned home from a visit with his family. We only
>>> had to go one or two stops, so since we had the luggage, we wanted to
>>> stand. As we were standing there waiting for the train, there were two
>>> security guards and their supervisor standing behind us. I heard the
>>> supervisor tell the security people, "As soon as the train gets here, go
>>> on and make the person in the front seat move, and put these people
>>> there." I turned around and told her it was not necessary to help and
>>> we've done this before. She said, "Yes, but I'm their supervisor." Just
>>> then, the train came, and we got on board, and stood and held the poll.
>>> One of the security guards started yelling, "Ma'am, over here, over
>>> here. Sit in this seat up front." I calmly said, "I have it under
>>> control, thanks." And then she came over and said, "My supervisor said
>>> you have to sit up front," and I snapped back, "I don't *have* to do
>>> anything!" So finally they got off the train and we had a smooth ride.
>>>
>>> Chasity
>>> Check out the tribute page I created for my guide dog Vanda at:
>>> www.myspace.com/vandaandchasity
>>> Listen to my radio show every Thursday from 4-7pm on the Q Online:
>>> www.theqonline.net
>>> Visit my MySpace page and add me at
>>> www.myspace.com/chasityandvanda
>>> Listen to my podcast at:
>>> http://www.gcast.com/u/Chasityvanda/main.xml
>>> Or by phone at: (559) 553-4627
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Marion & Martin" <swampfox1833 at verizon.net>
>>> To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>> Sent: Friday, January 23, 2009 7:22 AM
>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Questions about Federal regs regarding paratransit
>>>
>>>
>>>> Dear All,
>>>> the problem that arises when one is asked about whether a service
>>>> animal will be accompanying a person is the potential for
>>>> discrimination. This may not occur with paratransit, however, it could
>>>> happen with private transportation services. For instance, if a taxi
>>>> company flags someone in their system and, when that person calls for a
>>>> ride is asked the same question, it could result in an unequal
>>>> treatment. Should the dispatcher place a call for a pick-up in what is
>>>> known as a "bid" system in which the call is placed and drivers respond
>>>> that they are willing to take the fare, as is true here in Tampa, we
>>>> could wait an inordinate amount of time for a ride. If the dispatcher
>>>> says, "I have a fare with a dog in zone 50." and drivers are not
>>>> willing to take my dog, they will not bid on that fare and I am being
>>>> discriminated against because of my choice to use a guide dog.
>>>> Another instance is with the airlines. If you tell them in advance
>>>> that you will be accompanied by a service animal, any of the personnel
>>>> who have access to your information will see that and make certain
>>>> assumptions "in your best interest"! For instance, they will
>>>> automatically assume you want to sit in the bulkhead (or not), that you
>>>> will want to pre-board, will need certain assistance, etc. Frequently
>>>> airline personnel will insist that you accept such accomodation,
>>>> whether or not you want them and, when you decline them, insist it is
>>>> "Federal regulation", which it is not. In fact, Federal regulations say
>>>> we have the right to refuse any accommodation. HTH!
>>>>
>>>> Fraternally,
>>>> Marion
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>> From: "Margo and Elmo" <margo.downey at verizon.net>
>>>> To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
>>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>>> Sent: Thursday, January 22, 2009 9:41 AM
>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Questions about Federal regs regarding paratransit
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Charlene, I just spoke with a couple of folks in the know about these
>>>>> things.
>>>>>
>>>>> Generally speaking, they are not doing anything illegal by asking you
>>>>> to mention that your guide dog is accompanying you on each trip. Now,
>>>>> it was suggested to me that perhaps it might be possible that the
>>>>> paratransit service might be using an outdated software program on
>>>>> their computers. it was further suggested that they look at a software
>>>>> called Trapeze which is extremely accurate--not perfect but accurate.
>>>>> For example, our paratransis sytem which is a very good and reliable
>>>>> system uses Trapeze. On the application I filled out, I checked that I
>>>>> have a guide dog. that info went into my records on this software and
>>>>> that fact automatically goes into my trip when I make a paratransit
>>>>> reservation. the reason they like to know these things is to ensure
>>>>> comfortable space for the dog. They also know about scooters,
>>>>> wheelchairs, PCA's and such to ensure space on the van.
>>>>>
>>>>> hope this helps.
>>>>>
>>>>> margo and Elmo
>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>> From: "Charlene Ota" <caota at hawaii.rr.com>
>>>>> To: "'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog
>>>>> Users'" <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, January 21, 2009 11:27 PM
>>>>> Subject: [nagdu] Questions about Federal regs regarding paratransit
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> Several of us in Hawaii are having a problem with guide dogs on
>>>>>> paratransit.
>>>>>> We've all notified the company and validated that the fact that we
>>>>>> have
>>>>>> guide dogs is in our records and the reservationists see this at the
>>>>>> time we
>>>>>> make reservations. However, even so, we're having a problem if we
>>>>>> make a
>>>>>> reservation when we are picked up we are at times given a hard time
>>>>>> about
>>>>>> because we didn't tell the reservationists that we have a service
>>>>>> dog. The
>>>>>> other day I was almost put out of a cab from one of the companies
>>>>>> that
>>>>>> paratransit contracts with. When I pointed out to the reservationists
>>>>>> that
>>>>>> it is in my record that I have a guide dog so why do I have to tell
>>>>>> you
>>>>>> every time that I take him she kept arguing that it's assumed that if
>>>>>> you
>>>>>> don't mention that you're taking the dog then you're not taking the
>>>>>> dog. She
>>>>>> compared it to having a PCA. I tried to tell them that it's actually
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> norm for me to have my guide dog with me, but this didn't matter to
>>>>>> her.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> So, my question is, can we be put off of paratransit if we don't
>>>>>> specifically mention our dog every time we make a reservation? Is a
>>>>>> service
>>>>>> dog or guide dog comparable to a PCA? Personally, I think this is
>>>>>> going too
>>>>>> far and it is verging on discrimination. Also, one final question,
>>>>>> are our
>>>>>> HIPA rights violated when our information is discussed over the air
>>>>>> of the
>>>>>> radio or cell phone with the drivers? To me, paratransit is public
>>>>>> transportation and I don't feel they have the right to do some of
>>>>>> these
>>>>>> things. But, I need the Federal regs to do much about the situation.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Any help would be appreciated.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Charlene
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> nagdu mailing list
>>>>>> nagdu at nfbnet.org
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>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> nagdu mailing list
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>>>>
>>>>
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>>
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