[nagdu] Impressions Please?

Joy Relton jrelton at verizon.net
Wed Jul 29 01:40:15 UTC 2009


Marion,

Very good points of which I have been aware but I know that it could easily
be the case that someone who doesn't look out a window while eating might
not think about others doing so.

-----Original Message-----
From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf
Of Marion & Martin
Sent: Tuesday, July 28, 2009 4:15 PM
To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
Subject: Re: [nagdu] Impressions Please?


Jenine,
    I appreciate your message and your perspective. I must admit that, after

some of the encounters I had during convention with those who were unwilling

to be responsible in the relieving of their dogs, that I may have 
oversimplified my statement about this issue and may have taken what seemed 
to be an absolutistic stand. I am not suggesting that there are not 
circumstances under which someone may not be able to physically perform this

function and these individuals should not receive a dog. I am, however, 
suggesting that taking care of such basic functions is the duty of the 
handler and blindness, in an of itself, should not exempt a person from this

social responsibility. This could be done, as you mention, in other ways, 
such as teaching the dog to curb or some other alternative technique that I 
am not aware of, as I am not an expert in other disabilities.
    As for the laws that exempt blind people from this responsibility, I am 
opposed to these for a couple of reasons. My primary reason is the basic 
premise of those who make these exemptions that the blind person is 
incapable of doing so. Most of us on this list would prove this premise 
false. The other reason I am opposed to such an exemption is that service 
animals are generally found in many places where a pet dog would not 
normally be allowed, such as in restaurants, the mall, and in crowded 
downtown centers. Due to this propensity, I believe it is more incumbant 
upon a disabled person to be able to remove their dog's waste, so as to keep

the areas clean.
    On this note, one suggestion I would like to offer that I had mentioned 
to another user once and this person admitted he had never considered nor 
was ever made aware of, is that of relieving near a restaurant. During my 
training, Mike Sargeant reminded us that most people in the world are 
sighted and restaurants have windows! Watching a dog relieve itself while 
eating is not a very pleasant experience for many; therefore, do your best 
to be cognizant of who can see your dog relieving while near a restaurant!

Fraternally yours,
Marion


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Jenine Stanley" <jeninems at wowway.com>
To: "'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'" 
<nagdu at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Monday, July 27, 2009 9:42 AM
Subject: Re: [nagdu] Impressions Please?


> Joy,
>
> I understand your frustration over the woman's statement, and how you
> would
> have handled it had you been there. I can only imagine that you would have
> had a way to ask her, or get from her, why she didn't clean up.
>
> It's not necessarily true that all schools teach clean up techniques 
> or if they do, that they instill in people that this is a daily part 
> of caring for your dog. I know that the "big schools" teach this but 
> do all of them regularly expect it during class, or during any 
> modified or home trainings?
> I'd like to hear from folks from smaller schools too about whether they 
> were
> taught to clean up and were expected to be ready to do so at any time.
> Sometimes if it's a newby during a home training, this can get glossed 
> over,
> or at least I've heard of that happening from several first time handlers
> who were home trained by several schools doing such things.
>
> Also, in some cities, there are ordinances exempting blind people from
> clean
> up after their guide dogs, if not city-wide, in certain areas. Do I agree
> with such ordinances? For the most part, absolutely not. There are always
> exceptions though, but at this second I'm blanking on what they might be.
> <grin>
>
> All this said, I am troubled by the statements that if one can't clean 
> up after one's dog, that person should not have a dog and is probably 
> not fit to have one, or at least that's what's being implied. There 
> are people, for a number of reasons, who cannot bend down to clean up, 
> cannot risk encountering fecal matter, etc. Some of these people don't 
> use good tactics
> to get the necessary job done though.
>
> I've heard that at least one of the larger service dog schools has 
> clean
> up
> as a mandatory part of training. If the handler cannot physically do it, 
> he
> or she must solicit appropriate help but is ultimately responsible for
> getting things cleaned up.
>
> Yes, it's frustrating when people just spout the good old "I don't do
> that"
> statement, as if the butler is going to come along and take care of it. 
> I'd
> probably ask questions as follows.
>
> "Oh, is that because you have trouble bending down to reach it? If you
> don't
> know how to clean up, we can show you. It's easy and only takes a few
> seconds."
>
> If there is still resistance, I'd counter with:
>
> "Well, we do expect people to clean up after their dogs here. We'll be
> happy
> to help you if you absolutely can't bend down, and we'd be more than happy
> to teach you how to clean up, no big deal, but otherwise we do expect you 
> to
> take care of this."
>
> Not sure what I'd do if the person just said no. <grin>
>
> I might also add to any future invitations that you have a dog relief 
> area and that handlers are expected to clean up after their dogs, 
> period, end of story. How people who cannot physically do this handle 
> it from there is something they should regularly be practicing. I'd be 
> flexible enough to allow for these physical constraints if the person 
> self identifies and offers to at least stay with the helper until the 
> job is done.
>
> One elegant solution I saw to this was the first time someone actually 
> was forced to say she had to have help cleaning up. She could no 
> longer bend and squat to find and bag the stuff. She worked up her 
> courage and asked the sighted person manning this particular 
> convention relief area to help her. He bagged the poop and handed her 
> the bag, giving her directions to the trash can where she disposed of 
> it. I thought that was a great solution as it wasn't just handing the 
> job over to him and she still had, if you can call it that, the 
> dignity of taking care of what for her had been a routine
> function of her dog's care. It took a lot for her not to just be that
> indignant person saying "I don't do that" and admitting why she no longer
> was able to clean up.
>
> So, there may, and I emphasize may, be more to the guest's flippant
> response
> than you think. You as the home owner though still have every right to
> expect her to make her own arrangements for cleaning up if she physically
> cannot. Letting her know it's OK, on a one-on-one basis, to self disclose
> this info will help, as well as letting her know that even if she needs
> help, she's ultimately responsible for the outcome.
>
> Jenine Stanley
> jeninems at wowway.com
>
>
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