[nagdu] Lines in the sand?

Tue Jun 9 14:27:20 UTC 2009

My first dog shed like there was no tomorrow. I have no idea why, and I
suspect she may have had a health problem that was undetected. 
When I got her, I had been under the impression that "guide dogs are in
*perfect* health" and so was at a loss to deal with her shedding. I was
told "you need to brush her" to the point that when I hear or think of
that phrase, I want to scream. I could have spent all day brushing her
and she would have still shed. 
At the time, all I knew about were the brushes that felt like
hair-brushes, I'd never heard of the zoom groom. 
The idea of a dog having allergies was laughable to me. It wouldn't be
now, it was then. 
I also didn't know that switching food was an option, I was under the
oppisite impression that switching food would ruin the dog training and
behavior-wise. 
My only excuse is that I was young, I didn't have access to email lists
such as these, and my only experience with dogs was that I'd hang out
with the pets my family had, dogs who were fed table scraps, allowed to
roam off-leash, that sort of thing. They got their annual vaccines, but
that was about it. 
I think Tami is right on, "dealing with the problem" is highly
subjective, and is based on a whole host of factors, some that the
handler may not even be aware of. 

-----Original Message-----
From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
Behalf Of Tamara Smith-Kinney
Sent: Monday, June 08, 2009 12:44 PM
To: 'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
Subject: Re: [nagdu] Lines in the sand?

Jenine,

On the serious side, I agree with you about control being a big factor
in whether a guide dog team should be denied access, at least for lesser
infractions.  Even the most perfect guide dogs have their off days (or
so I surmise), but if the handler is aware and dealing with the issue,
then I would consider it under control.  Some people's version of
"dealing with the issue" is different from mine, however, since I use a
positive training model and deal with unwanted behaviors a bit
differently than folks who believe a harsh voice and sharp leash
correction -- or even hitting -- is the only way to go.  Not that those
methods are wrong, if that's how the dog is trained and how you are
accustomed to dealing with unwanted behaviors.
I'm just pointing out that "dealing with" a behavior can vary by
definition.

So the minor sins I might overlook would be sniffing, casual greeting,
small positioning erros, stuff like that.  Even a bit of arguing about
going under the table and lying down our of the way, so long as the dog
does end up out of the way.

Major infractions:  Trash diving; unrestrained scavenging (I still have
to keep a rein on Mitzi sometimes there); unwelcome and intrusive
greeting of others (Mitzi picks dog people for flirting with, so she
ends up being much too welcome in her greeting); table skimming in
restaurants; barking and/or growling; jumping on people or furniture;
deastructin of people or furniture; inappropriate bodily functions;
running wild; getting in the way of normal traffic flow; and probably a
few others.  Mitzi hasn't pulled every single one of those, but I
learned many, many things to watch out for during her socialization and
training.  Some of them were obvious from the get-go, of course; Mitzi
taught me all sorts of new sins to be neurotic about.  /grin/

As for grooming...  I'm thinking about that one and picturing extremes
without coming to a conclusion about where the happy medium lies.  If it
looks -- and smells! -- like it just came in off the farm, leave it in
the pickup.  /smile/  With Mitzi, I definitely watch her, um, personal
areas.
She carries that bobbed tail or hers in the upright position at all
times, so any leftovers there are plaing for all to see.  Once she
outgrew her tummy issues, it became less of a problem, but I still am
sure to wash back there before we go out to anywhere but the dog park.
I've taken to giving her a good surface wash before we go out, too, to
make sure she looks clean.
Unless we're in a real worry hurry and I just ask DD.  I'm afraid I'm
guilty of falling behind in my scheduled daily brushing, So the going
over with a wet washcloth compensates.

I would say that massive shedding is uncool, more in some venues than
others.  Would I let a dog shed three weeks worth of loose undercoat all
over my office just because it's a service animal?  I would rather not;
unless there is some good reason the handler has not been able to
maintain brushing (like a broken arm or something).  Visible old dirt
and grime would be another no-no; I think I would at least ask the
handler to clean their dog and try again (if that's possible).  Smelling
like the great outdoors or like 3 or 4 dirty dogs in one would be
another reason I might ask the handler to please do better.  As opposed
to just normal doggy smell.  Foul breath would be a big turn off, if it
were a regular occurrence and it was obvious nothing were being done
about it.

Those are interesting questions.  I'm not sure how informative my
off-the-top of my head answers are, but it will be good fodder for
thought for a few days.  /smile/

Tami Smith-Kinney

-----Original Message-----
From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
Behalf Of Jenine Stanley
Sent: Sunday, June 07, 2009 9:29 AM
To: 'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
Subject: [nagdu] Lines in the sand?

Dan makes some good points about us maybe being too judgmental. I'd
counter that with my own personal attitude that I'm not so much being
openly judgmental as trying to set and maintain high standards, but that
only really goes for myself and my dog. 

So, I'll pose this question to everyone, again appreciating the
intelligent discussion here. 

What behavior in a dog who is part of a working team would you deem
unacceptable? What offenses might cause you as a business owner to ask
someone to remove his or her dog? 

I think for me, it's about control. If someone is really trying to
control a dog with undesirable behaviors like barking or scavenging, I'm
much more likely to be lenient, but if the person seems oblivious or is
clearly ignoring the behaviors, it tends to get a bit old. 

One of my big buttons is dogs who are allowed to roam around places of
business. One lady I know has a very bad habit of, once comfortable in a
place, i.e., after walking in the door, of turning her dog loose to roam
around while she looks at things or talks to people. When she used to
visit my office at my last job, I had to ask that the dog stay on leash
with her as he made a beeline for my trash can. The next time I saw him,
he was wearing a basket muzzle and again allowed to roam freely because
with said muzzle he couldn't get into things. <sigh> 

The one thing I am pretty annoyed by in terms of the public's reaction
to us is the whole grooming issue. People don't generally know what a
well groomed dog is and all sorts of accusations come up about dogs not
being groomed well, smelling, being dirty and shedding. 

I'll admit to being a neat freak when it comes to my dogs and a grooming
fanatic. That doesn't mean everyone else is and it doesn't mean that
every dog who isn't ready for the West Minster show ring is filthy and
unkempt. 

I've seen a number of guide dogs who could use maybe a good brush or
bath or who could have some skin  issues looked into by their vet, sure,
but saying they rose to the level of denial of access is a bit much. 

I've also heard of one denial case that really brings the grooming point
home. Someone years ago, before the ADA even, was told to leave a fast
food place because her dog was dirty and offensive. She'd just come in
from a pouring rain storm. Everyone else coming in behind her was just
as wet. She fought the denial and won under state law. 

My point? There are some things I think we as handlers can hold each
other to in terms of acceptable public behavior and there are some
things perceived as unacceptable by others that we as handlers can band
together to support and explain. My retort anymore is "Would you rather
have my dog or some of the kids I've seen in here?" 

 Jenine Stanley
jeninems at wowway.com

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