[nagdu] occupaws ownership policy

Tue Mar 3 17:29:21 UTC 2009

Alison, 
You encountered this compassion at a fund-raiser. It may be legitimate,
it may not, but nobody in their right mind will say "I don't much care
that Jane Doe died, we put some good money into that dog, and are not
about to let our investment go to waste". 
All I'm suggesting is know the source, and know the context. 

-----Original Message-----
From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
Behalf Of Allison Nastoff
Sent: Monday, March 02, 2009 9:23 PM
To: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users
Subject: Re: [nagdu] occupaws ownership policy

Hi Angie,
Thanks for sharing your thoughts on this issue.  Personally, I don't
mind the prospect of consulting a third party to make decisions about
Gilbert, but you bring up a good point that in some cases schools
retaining ownership can create some hardship.
In answer to your question about placing Gilbert when he is retired,
ownership will officially transfer to me when he retires.  I have the
option of keeping him, (which I fully intend to do unless I have to live
in a situation where only working service dogs are allowed), or
determining who he is placed with.
As far as what happens to Gilbert if the worst happened, Gilbert could
be taken away from my family and reissued if he was young, and still
able to work.  But if Occupaws determined that he could no longer work,
or was too old to reissue, I think that my family would get to keep him.
One thing that I noticed during my training, and when I attended some
Occupaws fundraisers, is that everyone in the organization, including
the puppy raisers were extremely compassionate.  I'm pretty certain that
if the worst happened, they would make their decisions with the best
interests of Gilbert, and my family in mind.
Allison and Gilbert

> ----- Original Message -----
>From: "Angie Matney" <angie.matney at gmail.com
>To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog
Users"<nagdu at nfbnet.org
>Date sent: Thu, 26 Feb 2009 09:52:50 -0500
>Subject: Re: [nagdu] occupaws ownership policy

>Hi Allison,

>Thanks for your post.  I don't mean to minimize the concerns that
prompt some schools to retain ownership, but there are ways to remove a
dog from an abusive situation, whether it is a guide dog or a pet.

>I personally am glad to have ownership of my dog because I know
that at the end of the day, I can make important decisions about her
future without consulting a third party.  I don't mean to imply that I
would never ask the school's advice.  I just think that there are
situations in which I, as the handler, know much more about the
individual dog than the most well-intentioned staff of my school, who
might not have interacted with her for some time.

>Will you be able to place Gilbert when he retires? Most schools
do allow the grad to do this, even if they retain ownership; but in some
situations, the graduates' wishes are not respected.  
And, if the worst should happen, would your family have any say in what
happens to Gilbert? It is comforting to me to know that if something
happened to me, the people who are most prominent in Yani's recent
memories would be able to make decisions concerning her future.  I know
of an instance in which a handler was killed when s/he was struck by a
car.  This person's family hoped tthat the guide dog could be reissued.
They wanted to adopt the dog if it could not be reissued.  As it
happened, the dog was unable to work after the accident.  But because it
had been with the handler for less than the time provided for in the
school's policy, the dog was offered to its raisers instead of the
handler's family.  This created an additional source of grief for the
family.

>I could cite other instances where handlers who did not own their
dogs encountered problems when they and the school disagreed about what
should happen.  In all of the instances I'm thinking of, all parties
agreed that the dogs were unable to continue working.

>These are a few of the reasons why I am glad to own my dog.

>Best,

>Angie

>Sent from my Nokia N82.

>-original message-
>Subject: [nagdu] occupaws ownership policy
>From: Allison Nastoff <anastoff at wi.rr.com
>Date: 02/26/2009 12:07 AM

>Hi List,
>I have been reading your discussion about ownership policies at the 
>various schools, but I have a different perspective.
>I received my dog from Occupaws, and the policy at Occupaws is that 
>they technically own the dog until he is retired.  My trainer said the 
>reason for this policy was liability.  While it is rare, unfortunately 
>some people do mistreat their dogs, or do not make wise judgements 
>about when it is time to retire them, and the decision of Occupaws to 
>maintain ownership of the dog is simply a precaution.  At first when I 
>learned of this policy, I was disappointed.  But I soon realized that 
>while Occupaws has legal ownership of him, in every other regard, he is

>my dog.
>Occupaws has contacted me every couple of months to make sure things 
>are working out, but they have never interfered in any way.
>Personally, I support this precautionary measure.  In the rare case 
>that a dog is mistreated, it would not be fair to the dog, or to 
>another handler who would appreciate this dog and take good care of 
>him, if the school gave full ownership to a handler, and then was 
>powerless to reclaim the dog from a handler if it came to the school's 
>attention that there is a problem.
>I realize that some of you will be furious with me for saying this, but

>it is my personal opinion.  The fact that I technically don't own my 
>dog has not prevented me from bonding with him, or interfered with our 
>work as a team.  I think that legal ownership is just a technicality, 
>and that emotional ownership is what really matters.
>Allison and Gilbert

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