[nagdu] Thankyou Re: EXTERNAL:Re: Motorized wheelchairs and scooters

Tamara Smith-Kinney tamara.8024 at comcast.net
Thu Nov 4 20:17:26 UTC 2010


Well, going to a state agency and asking them to meet your needs is a
sure-fire way to earn their eternal enmity.  How dare you!  I actually have
the VR director for the state of Oregon on tape -- 2 tapes, in fact --
stating that my doing so was just crazy.  And, yes, I have piles of
documentation and could get more from 3rd-party sources indicating that the
OCB is full of   foul-smelling brown stuff.  Finding a way to use that to
have some effect on the agency's ongoing practice of fraud and abuse has
become something of a grail quest for me.  In Oregon, it seems, it is A-okay
for the OCB to waste millions of dollars of public funds while causing real
physical injuries and thus medical bills -- on top of the verbal abuse -- to
the population those funds are meant to serve.  It is *not* A-okay to bring
up the subject or to let on that you have a problem with the whole thing.
Sigh.  Even when I have gotten someone to look into it, they contact the
agency to be assured that the agency followed their policies and procedures,
so there's nothing to be done.  Even a review of the agency's file,
according to those who have looked at it, shows that the agency followed its
policies and procedures...  Which is weird, because I have a copy of the
file which is not complete but which does contain documentation by staffers
of how they violated their policies and procedures.  Hmm...  Nobody will
even consider reviewing my documentation or looking at my employment records
(from when I was determined to be unemployable by the OCB) or anything like
that.  Nope.  The case file shows that the OCB did everything by the book,
so the problem is clearly me.  Bah!

They (the OCB) are all very happy about Mitzi because she is such a sweet
friend for me, and they believe the companionship is really a big help with
the isolation and depression of my lonely, friendless blind life.  Thus, her
presence as my guide dog -- doing obvious guide dog stuff -- is in no way an
indication to them that their determination that I am by nature incapable of
doing anything at all more complicated than tying my own shoes might be just
a little bit off base.  I am very proud of myself for not hitting anyone at
the agency who interferes with my guide dog in the course of her work to
gush out the sweet friend spiel.  Just for fun a couple of times, I've tried
pointing out that she is a guide dog and that I trained her myself.  Sure
enough, I got exactly the response I expected:  She's not a real guide dog.

There are a number of partials on the list I know, some of whom are losing
their vision progressively and others who have used guide dog through the
process of graduating from partial to total.   The reasons training programs
used to give for not providing guide dogs to partials included the concern
(certainty on their part at the time) that the partial would use her/his
vision and screw up the dog's training.

While it is devilishly difficult to *not* use one's residual vision, this
doesn't seem to preclude one automatically from learning to trust one's
guide dog enough to effectively use it as a mobility tool.  It does not make
one more likely to ruin the dog's training.  The actual list of the number
of things we're officially precluded from doing with our dogs because each
and every one of them will ruin the dog's training is comprehensive enough
to make one wonder about the quality of the training in the first place.
Well, if one is me, the throught will cross one's mind.  /smile/  Obviously,
the quality of training of the vast majority of guide dogs is very good, but
that's how the "it will ruin the dog's training" bit always sounds to me.
In this case, it obviously really *is* just me taking it that way.  /smile/

I've also known a number of true "totals" (you *real* blind people /grin/)
to admit to making the same sorts of mistakes with their dogs that us
partials are officially prone to do...  And this partial with her sweet
friend who is not a real guide dog certainly keeps doing!  /grin/  When
someone who is so much more experienced than I makes such a confession, I
feel very warm and fuzzy toward them for doing so.  And absolutely horrified
because I somehow carry about the belief that when I finally get around to
losing the last vestiges of that dratted residual vision, the whole
blindness thing will suddenly become very, very easy and that I will not be
so stupid about it.  Sigh.  So much for my happy delusion there!  /grin/

Meanwhile my sweet friend/faux guide dog is teaching me that my mistakes
don't ruin her training; they make it stronger.  And they give her an
opportunity to show me that any dog with that combination of characteristics
to become a working guide can teach some stupid human how to do things right
to stay safe!  Good thing, because she has me as a handler.  /lol/  She does
not let me get away with falling into bad habits that will get me hurt!

Also, honestly, when she's not on the job, she really is a wonderfully sweet
friend.  /smile/

Tami Smith-Kinney

-----Original Message-----
From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf
Of Brenda
Sent: Wednesday, November 03, 2010 11:25 AM
To: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users
Subject: [nagdu] Thankyou Re: EXTERNAL:Re: Motorized wheelchairs and
scooters

Hi Tami

Thank you for the very informative and encouraging post as in I don't 
feel so alone after reading it.  Your response made me feel better about 
having some remaining vision yet feeling I would benefit from a guide 
dog.  I am thinking the attitudes about partials using canes and guide 
dogs is changing for the better.    When I was a high partial but yet 
still needed verbal cues from a downhill ski guide, I was told I didn't 
need someone to call my turns.  Hence I have been afraid to ask for help 
even though the NFB encourages people not to rely on their remaining 
vision.

I am just curious, when your State agency misrepresented your situation, 
were you not able to talk to the guide dog schools and explain your 
side.  Did you have documentation of the State Agency's treatment of 
you?  I am a bit of an undesirable with my current state agency for 
trying to get my needs met.  When I apply to Leader for O&m and later 
for a guide dog, I will not use them as a reference.  In my research 
into guide dog schools, you need a form from your doctor and eye doctor 
and don't even need to bother with the State.  I love it that I am 
finding that guide dog schools don't seem to get funding from the State 
or sometimes not even from United Way and are still able to provide 
services.  As for O&M, I think Leader is the only one not charging for 
O&M training which can be very expensive out-of-pocket.

One reason I like this list is because I am watching to learn about 
other teams like you where the human has some remaining vision.

Brenda






On 11/3/2010 1:04 PM, Tamara Smith-Kinney wrote:
> Brenda,
>
> I have RP, so have been where you are and am still working on getting to
be
> a total.  I live in Oregon, and our state agency is beyond unhelpful, so I
> also ended up teaching myself O&M except for some very basic instruction.
> As time goes on, I keep hearing from more and more people who are having
to
> teach themselves because they have no alternative, which is appalling,
> really, since we're all paying taxes to have that instruction available
and
> since going out in the world to cross streets and all while you're still
> learning to use the cane effectively and to develop all of the other O&M
> skills you need to be safe is so inherently dangerous.  Still, we do what
we
> need to do, right?  /smile/
>
> I did a lot of what you seem to be doing:  analyze places and scenarios,
> think it through, observe, think it through, ask questions like mad of
> everyone you can get your hands on...  I was just a couple of years ahead
of
> all the internet resources and discussion groups we have now to draw on,
so
> I got a little frantic sometimes.  I was out in the sticks back then and
the
> only blind person who actually ever left the house, except for a couple of
> people in Bend who I never managed to meet, just hear of.
>
> The bright side?  By the time I moved back to civilization and spent some
> time learning to walk around the block or down straight hallways with a
> certified mobility instructor, I already knew that all those things a
blind
> person can't do and should never try or even think of doing are quite
> possible, since I had already done them and was doing them....  I finally
> gave up on learning anything new from said instructor, since I had useful,
> constructive things to do with my time.
>
> I had also decided to get a guide dog when the time was right, so when my
> state agency sent a report on my mobility skills to the first guide dog
> school I had applied to, they reported that I have really great vision
which
> I use for O&M and everything else (even when I'm doing it in front of them
> under sleepshade!), so I don't need a guide dog.  They also managed to get
> the point across that I was dingy in the head from insisting the
instructors
> and staff there were physically abusive and that I was still suffering
from
> and paying for those injuries and was unhappy about this.  Who knows what
a
> person who would say such things might do to a dog?
>
> So I cheerfully decided to bypass the rest of the application process with
> the other schools I was considering and got me a nice poodle pup who is
now
> my guide dog because I up and trained her myself.  Due to those injuries I
> mentioned, using a cane full time is still a bit crippling, so I
absolutely
> need a guide dog.  Also, the progressive vision loss plays games with
one's
> head, so she is a great help in general O&M.  In fact, she was by the end
of
> our first walk on leash back when she was a 7-month-old bouncy ball of
> curls, fresh in from the country.  /smile/  I still practice my cane
skills,
> including the different O&M aspects of moving with a cane over with a dog,
> but the dog makes everything much, much smoother.
>
> Training one's own guide is crazy dangerous and demands crazy good O&M,
> since you spend months going about with your trainee watching out for the
> safety of both of you while focusing on every move the dog makes so you
can
> reward and teach and communicate....
>
> Last I heard from the agency, I still need them to teach me basic O&M so I
> can go around the block safely by myself without getting lost.  I also
> refuse to learn braille, I was surprised to discover.  /lol/  My roommate
> was there, and he assures me it is so.  Neither he nor I have managed to
> figure out what I'm really trying to accomplish by running my fingers over
> bumpy paper for a couple of hours a day or so.  Words form in my head
while
> I'm doing that, so it keeps me entertained at least.  /grin/
>
> Anyway, I'll be interested to hear about Leader's cane travel program.  I
> haven't yet met anyone (that I know of) who has gone through it, but I
hope
> it works and is the start of a new trend in agency-free mobility
> instruction!
>
>
>
>
> Tami Smith-Kinney
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf
> Of Brenda
> Sent: Friday, October 29, 2010 6:01 AM
> To: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] EXTERNAL:Re: Motorized wheelchairs and scooters
>
> Rebecca
>
> I do not use my husband as the gold standard for guiding, I just said he
> has almost gotten hit by several motorized vehicles and he can see them
> coming.  Sometimes they go fast and unlike cars go too fast in a
> building.  with the discussion of quiet cars that you cannot hear that I
> have found on this list, I wanted to know how a blind person could avoid
> this unforseen obstacle in a building.  From the answers I got, having a
> guide dog appears to me to be more helpful than a cane.
>
> I am slowly losing the rest of my vision.  As a high partial for many
> years, I was never given the opportunities blind people were as far as
> mobility training, Braille, etc.  I may well have benefited from a guide
> dog years ago, but high partials were never considered to need any type
> of a guide or mobility training.  I had to get by in the world between
> the sighted and the blind.   I have learned to function and accept
> myself as who I am as a high partial.  As I cross over, I have had to
> figure things out on my own as my state rehab agency is very unhelpful,
> and I believe even the mobility instructor thought I only needed a cane
> for identification.  The only mobility training I received is minimal
> street crossing.
>
> I believe a guide dog would suit my needs and  lifestyle, and my husband
> is not a good guide.  Also, I value my independence.  Realizing this, I
> have started using my cane full time and am planning on going to Leader
> Dogs to get accelerated mobility training.  I subscribe to this list to
> learn about guide dog issues as one day I will get a guide dog.  This is
> not an option at this point as our pet dog is unreceptive to other dogs
> and I will not give away a family member.  Besides, it will give me time
> to get proficient with cane mobility.
>
> I will continue to read and learn from this list.  I did learn a lot
> from the replies from Julie and others about my motorized vehicle in
> building question.
>
> Brenda
>
>
>
>
> On 10/29/2010 8:13 AM, Pickrell, Rebecca M (TASC) wrote:
>> Brenda,
>> What Julie and others have said are correct.
>> What I'd like to know is why you're using your husband as the gold
>> standard for guiding. Remember, your husband is there to shop, not
>> guide. He may guide you, but that isn't why he's there. Your dog will
>> have nothing else to do but guide.
>> What I'm getting is that your husband isprobably one heck of a person.
>> Still, his experiences don't transolate into your dog's job.
>> Also know that if you don't want to use your dog in this environment,
>> you don't have to. Many of us use our canes when we feel we need to. We
>> all have different scenarios when we do this, this may be yours. Nothing
>> wrong with that.
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>> Behalf Of Julie J
>> Sent: Thursday, October 28, 2010 4:02 PM
>> To: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>> Subject: EXTERNAL:Re: [nagdu] Motorized wheelchairs and scooters
>>
>> Brenda,
>>
>> the dog will back up or move appropriately to keep you from contacting
>> any
>> moving object including wheelchairs, shopping carts, bicyclists,
>> skateboarders, and the like.
>>
>> I have always felt like people should take some responsibility for where
>>
>> they are and what is in their intended path.  Saying "excuse me" would
>> be
>> nice, but if you've ever shopped at Wal-Mart on Saturday morning...well,
>>
>> I've learned a new appreciation of Monty's quick reflexes. *smile*
>>
>> HTH
>> Julie
>>
>>
>>
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