[nagdu] GDA Ownership Agreement
Sheila Leigland
sleigland at bresnan.net
Sat Apr 23 04:19:34 UTC 2011
-----Original Message-----
From: Marion Gwizdala <blind411 at verizon.net>
Sent: Friday, April 22, 2011 11:31 AM
To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
Subject: [nagdu] GDA Ownership Agreement
Julie and Listers,
Attached to this mesage is Guide Dogs of America's ownership agreement.
It was sent to me upon my request. FYI, I also asked GDF for their ownership
agreement and am in the process of making similar requests to each of the
training programs. As of this writing, I have received no other replies.
Fraternally yours,
Marion Gwizdala
----- Original Message -----
From: "Julie J" <julielj at neb.rr.com>
To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
<nagdu at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Friday, April 22, 2011 1:20 PM
Subject: Re: [nagdu] Lisa and All: Bill of Rights
>I guess I thought GDA gave true legal ownership. That doesn't sound like
>what they offer. that's kind of disappointing.
>
> Does anyone know if the ownership contracts of any of the programs are
> available on the internet? For me, being able to read the contract would
> help me immensely in deciding if that is a program I would want to apply
> to. It seems a large waste of everyone's time to apply, be accepted and
> then read the contract only to find out it isn't something I'm willing to
> sign.
>
> thoughts?
> Julie
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Brittney N. Mejico" <brittneymejico at verizon.net>
> To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Thursday, April 21, 2011 7:15 PM
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Lisa and All: Bill of Rights
>
>
>> Julie
>> They give ownership of your dog to you, but if they hear that your dog
>> is being abused or someone other than you is using your guide dog they
>> have the right to take your dog At least that's what they told me.
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Julie J
>> Sent: Thursday, April 21, 2011 4:48 PM
>> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Lisa and All: Bill of Rights
>>
>> Brittney,
>>
>> I thought GDA gave ownership to their grads. Is there something in the
>> contract that allows them to take a dog you own? I'm confused.
>>
>> I'm glad it all worked out in the end, but sorry you had to go through
>> that.
>>
>> Julie
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Brittney N. Mejico" <brittneymejico at verizon.net>
>> To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Thursday, April 21, 2011 6:23 PM
>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Lisa and All: Bill of Rights
>>
>>
>>> Hi Tami and Lyn,
>>> I would like to thank both of you for sharing your experiences.Both of
>>> you guys stories have helped me out. I can't put it into words how
>>> much. I got my dog from GDA and nothing against anyone who goes there
>>> but man they LOVE LOVE good stories. I found this out about six months
>>> ago. My grandmother told them that my X boy friend hits and kicks my
>>> guide dog and they believed her. They took my dog and then gave her
>>> back after they couldn't find any proof that she had been abused. It
>>> was a totally uncool experience. Yes the fabracated stories have to
>>> stop. I thought that I was the only one who has had some person make up
>>> a story about them and have the school take someone elses side but
>>> yours.I am just thankful I got my dog back. I am glad that I now know
>>> know that the schools talk to each other.I hope this issue does not
>>> effect me if I ever apply for another guide.
>>>
>>> Thanks a bunch
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: Tamara Smith-Kinney
>>> Sent: Thursday, April 21, 2011 9:34 AM
>>> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Lisa and All: Bill of Rights
>>>
>>> Lyn,
>>>
>>> Had that experience with my application to GDB, through the Boring
>>> campus,
>>> which I attempted to finish up after the big disaster at Oregon
>>> Commission
>>> for the Blind. Oh, they definitely talk to each other, too! And the
>>> GDB
>>> interviewer and, apparently, the selection committee, clearly believed
>>> them
>>> hook line and sinker!
>>>
>>> So the one reason given that was GDB's own is that I had set a load of
>>> laundry by the kitchen door to the basement because the washers were
>>> full.
>>> It was still there when she arrived for the home interview, so when I
>>> showed
>>> her around, I explained that I'd set it there for later instead of
>>> carrying
>>> it up another flight of stairs in my house and having to carry it down
>>> that
>>> same extra flight later on when it was my turn for the laundry room.
>>> Apparently, if I will do such a carefless, negligent, dangerous thing
>>> when
>>> there is no dog in the house, I will almost certainly kill any guide dog
>>> of
>>> theirs because it will eat a sock and die. Turns out, that did
>>> apparently
>>> happen to one of their dogs way back in the mists of history. So I've
>>> heard
>>> others scratching their heads about the dire danger of socks and how
>>> come
>>> they have to keep hearing about how their going to kill their dogs if
>>> they
>>> drop a sock on the floor. Very odd. I'm not knocking the program or
>>> their
>>> dogs, since we all know they turn out good dogs and happy grads who
>>> somehow
>>> manage to avoid the dangers of lurking killer socks.
>>>
>>> The other two points in the letter were straight from Oregon Commission
>>> for
>>> the Blind, almost verbatim. The mobility instructor -- who also did
>>> some
>>> in-home living skills instructing -- reported that my ability to
>>> navigate
>>> and orient, along with my ability to accomplish household tasks without
>>> assistance from her, allowing her to play spider solitaire on my
>>> computer,
>>> indicated that I was using my really great vision to do these things.
>>> She
>>> did not -- or the letter from GDB did not mention this detail -- that I
>>> was
>>> performing those tasks under sleep shade. Anyway, since I had really
>>> great
>>> vision and didn't need a guide dog and would most certainly screw it up
>>> if
>>> it lived long enough what with the socks and all, they preferred to save
>>> their dogs for blind people who needed them. Sigh.
>>>
>>> Also, because of what had happened when I came across the state to the
>>> Living Skills Center and nearly ended up dead, it appeared I had some
>>> serious mental health issues and would, you know, do bad things to the
>>> dog.
>>> Um... I had a real problem with that one, since I was getting through
>>> the
>>> PTSD from all that, and had been declared in the aftermath by not one
>>> but
>>> three licensed and qualified professionals using metric tools and
>>> everything
>>> to be quite sane otherwise and to be handling the PTSD in a surprisingly
>>> mentally healthy way even before I got into counseling for it. Also, it
>>> seemed to me that it might be helpful for me to know if the OCB had
>>> crossed
>>> the line somewhere in what they communicated to the guide dog program
>>> when
>>> they submitted the O&M assessment the program required. I had been
>>> quite
>>> open with the interviewer from GDB, and I did give them a release of
>>> information from the counselor I was still seeing for the PTSD, then
>>> chatted
>>> about it in session while going through the status check part of the
>>> conversation. The counselor's input matched with my general perception
>>> of
>>> my own reality -- still got a ways to go, but doing well, can expect a
>>> good
>>> outcome, have coping skills to use in moving along, etc., etc. She
>>> didn't
>>> tell me what she planned to report to GDB, or what she did report, which
>>> seemed pretty professional of her, so I didn't really worry about it.
>>> She
>>> struck me as the type to do her job as she should, which was to give an
>>> accurate report on my mental health status...
>>>
>>> I did want to discuss the issue with the interviewer from GDB, though,
>>> to
>>> find out what was going on there, how to correctly translate their
>>> statement
>>> from the letter, and to find out what I needed to do to resolve the
>>> issue in
>>> the event I decided to reapply at the appropriate time... No return
>>> communication. Tried the boss... Nope! At that point, I noticed that
>>> I
>>> seem to have ordered a poodle to be delivered to my home and had better
>>> things to do than worry about what a bunch of strangers thought of how
>>> dangerous crazy I must be. Doesn't matter to me at all and doesn't
>>> affect
>>> me in any way, so Bob's your uncle! Mitzi lives! /evil grin/
>>>
>>> Black listing people based on rumor and innuendo and possibly flat out
>>> lies
>>> has got to go!
>>>
>>> Tami Smith-Kinney
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>>> Behalf
>>> Of Lyn Gwizdak
>>> Sent: Wednesday, April 20, 2011 9:36 AM
>>> To: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Lisa and All: Bill of Rights
>>>
>>> Guide Dogs of America and GDB for believing fabricated stories. The
>>> "busy
>>> body" I referred to in my post is someone who fabricates stories here
>>> locally and she is known to do this for years. In other words, she
>>> doesn't
>>>
>>> have much real credibility aroound here and wwe're glad she moved out of
>>> town although we see her around from time to time. She personally
>>> doesn't
>>> like me for my refusal to be intimidated by her and that I am LGBT.
>>>
>>> I know that people get good dogs from them and that's fine. I just will
>>> never go back there again. I don't dump on either school and respect
>>> people's choices as to where they wish to get their dog from. This is
>>> all
>>> my own personal experiences with these two schools, that's all.
>>>
>>> Also, as a result of the refusal of services by GDA, I got turned down
>>> by
>>> GDB - with the "giving my retired guide to another person to use as a
>>> guide"
>>>
>>> rationale. Whatever. I'm glad I went back to TSE.
>>>
>>> Whether we realize it of not, these schools talk to each other about
>>> prospective students. What I was upset about is that GDB believed the
>>> stories rather than finding out the truth about me and what really
>>> happened
>>> with the retired guide dog.
>>>
>>> When I applied to TSE, I told them about this situation because I
>>> thought
>>> they might hear it from someone other than from me. As far as TSE was
>>> concerned, I already had a track record with them and they accepted me
>>> back
>>> with no problem. I have had nothing but adult treatment and respect
>>> from
>>> TSE.
>>>
>>> Lyn and Landon
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Brittney N. Mejico" <brittneymejico at verizon.net>
>>> To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>> Sent: Tuesday, April 19, 2011 5:39 PM
>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Lisa and All: Bill of Rights
>>>
>>>
>>>> hay Lyn
>>>> Witch School in california did you go to? That is crazy they treated
>>>> you
>>>> like that
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: Lyn Gwizdak
>>>> Sent: Tuesday, April 19, 2011 4:19 PM
>>>> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Lisa and All: Bill of Rights
>>>>
>>>> Got that right, Marion!
>>>>
>>>> Back in 1990, I went to a California guide dog school. While at the
>>>> school,
>>>> I befriended a man there who was on class with me. this man's brother
>>>> was
>>>> also in the same class and the two brothers did NOT get along with each
>>>> other. Why they were put into the same class, I don't know. However
>>>> they
>>>> did. The brother of they guy I hung out with would do stuff to
>>>> irritate
>>>> his
>>>> brother like come into the room where we were sitting and blow
>>>> cigarette
>>>> smoke at us. I asked the brother to not do this as I never did
>>>> anything
>>>> to
>>>> him and that we should be adults on class even if the two of them
>>>> didn't
>>>> get
>>>> along.
>>>>
>>>> Well, after that, the instructor called the three of us -
>>>> individually -
>>>> into his office and proceeded to threaten us with being sent home
>>>> without
>>>> our dogs if the crap didn't stop. Well, I was VERY upset over this
>>>> treatment especially since I was doing NOTHING wrong or breaking any of
>>>> the
>>>> house rules or disrespecting any other person there. Fortunately, the
>>>> crap
>>>> stopped and we all went home with our dogs.
>>>>
>>>> Then, when I retired the dog and wanted to return for another one, the
>>>> school said I violated the contract by "giving my retired dog to
>>>> another
>>>> person to use as a guide" - which was not true! I gave the dog to the
>>>> woman's husband for a PET as my friend already had a guide dog from
>>>> that
>>>> same school. These people moved out of state and she sent her dog back
>>>> and
>>>> then used my retired dog as her guide. They moved back here, a local
>>>> busybody saw her with my dog and reported to the school. The trainer
>>>> came
>>>> to talk to us and I told him that I gave the dog to the husband and
>>>> that I
>>>> mailed the harness back. I thought it was all clear and then I got
>>>> denied
>>>> when I applied for a dog with that school six months later. I was
>>>> denied
>>>> service by this school. that was fine - it got me to venture across
>>>> the
>>>> country to go back to TSE for my next dog and I've been with TSE ever
>>>> since!
>>>>
>>>> WE need to find the schools who respect us and not be paternalistic
>>>> towards
>>>> us and stick with their program! You're right, marion, the schools
>>>> EXIST
>>>> because of the blind people who want guide dogs and they must realize
>>>> this
>>>> and be respectful towards us.
>>>>
>>>> Lyn and Landon
>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>> From: "Marion Gwizdala" <blind411 at verizon.net>
>>>> To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
>>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>>> Sent: Tuesday, April 19, 2011 2:32 AM
>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Lisa and All: Bill of Rights
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Brittney,
>>>>> I object to the characteristic of the guide dog consumer as a
>>>>> "beggar". Guide dog training programs raise millions of dollars each
>>>>> year
>>>
>>>>> with the assertion that they are doing something beneficial and
>>>>> enhancing
>>>
>>>>> for the blind. Donors - many of whom are their own consumers - donate
>>>>> these millions with the same intent. If it were not for us, those
>>>>> employed by the training programs would not be earning their livings.
>>>>> The idea that we have no say and must settle for whatever we
>>>>> receive
>>>>> with no rights to address abuse or maltreatment is archaic. Most
>>>>> training
>>>
>>>>> programs obviously view their blind consumers as nothing more than
>>>>> wards
>>>>> who are unable to govern their own lives, let alone take care of a
>>>>> dog.
>>>>> What other reason would they have for not transferring ownership upon
>>>>> completion of the program? I have heard many justifications and
>>>>> rationalizations for this paternalistic practice but none of them are
>>>>> convincing. It is time for us to discard the notion that we are
>>>>> beholden
>>>>> to the training programs and demand to be treated equitably and with
>>>>> the
>>>>> dignity many of these programs mistakenly assert they provide.
>>>>>
>>>>> Fraternally yours,
>>>>> Marion Gwizdala
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>> From: "Brittney N. Mejico" <brittneymejico at verizon.net>
>>>>> To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
>>>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>>>> Sent: Monday, April 18, 2011 7:08 PM
>>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Lisa and All: Bill of Rights
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> Hi,
>>>>>> Do we have rights as guide dog users? Most schools give us our dogs
>>>>>> for
>>>
>>>>>> free or they charge a small fee that I think is extremely cheap.
>>>>>> Beggers can't be choosers I guess. I think we should be informed of
>>>>>> any alergy or behavior problem but sometimes we aren't. I think the
>>>>>> schools try there best we can't blame them for things that they may
>>>>>> have
>>>
>>>>>> missed. My guide has alergies, I found this after I brought her
>>>>>> home. I
>>>
>>>>>> contacted the school I got her from, and they helped me find a food
>>>>>> that didn't cause her problems. A lot of people I know there guide
>>>>>> dogs
>>>
>>>>>> have alergies, I don't know why, I guess things just happen.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>> From: Lyn Gwizdak
>>>>>> Sent: Monday, April 18, 2011 2:43 PM
>>>>>> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Lisa and All: Bill of Rights
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Hi guys,
>>>>>> As a side discussion to this, it seems to me that many more dogs are
>>>>>> cropping up with one kind or another allergy these days. When I
>>>>>> lived
>>>>>> back
>>>>>> east I never really encountered this problem until I moved to
>>>>>> California.
>>>>>> Now I hear that the dogs in the east coast have this problem as
>>>>>> well -
>>>>>> actually dogs all over the US. Is this my imagination or are the
>>>>>> dogs
>>>>>> coming out of the schools now actually having more allergies? Input
>>>>>> anyone?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The Bill of Rights thing sounds good to me. I think the schools do
>>>>>> what
>>>>>> they can to try to make sure that the dogs we get are in good health
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