[nagdu] Questions About Guide Dogs

Wed Aug 31 23:16:47 UTC 2011

Hi Tatyana,

Don't worry about that. Most people uses the word "command", but we all generally understand that it is more a "request", even if that isn't really the word we use, nor for that matter, the word the schools use. I merely bring it up for illustrative purposes, so that there's a bit more of an understanding of what our dogs are expected to do. 
You're right: it is a big decision. And it's one you shouldn't take lightly. So says the guy that started his guide dog application because it sounded like a pretty good idea at the time. You really will get used to the different ways you get information using a dog versus using a cane. It isn't better or worse, but it is certainly different. 

I want to ask you about something completely unrelated to this, so please look for my Email off list.
--
Buddy Brannan, KB5ELV - Erie, PA
Phone: (814) 860-3194 or 888-75-BUDDY

On Aug 31, 2011, at 7:03 PM, Tatyana wrote:

> Hello Buddy, Julie  and all,
> Thank you again for answering my questions. It's so wonderful how you all
> love your dogs so it makes me think that I'm  losing  something not having a
> dog.
> I didn't want to upset you using the word "command" instead of "request"
> English is my second language. so it's always  a great  job for me to pick a
> correct word. Just  like any American who learns other language and sure
> they tell you same thing.  I absolutely understand what you are saying when
> you say that   dogs have their own individualities and they are not
> computers. That's why I'm asking because that is a big decision on getting a
> new family member not only a helper.
> 
> Tatyana.
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Buddy Brannan" <buddy at brannan.name>
> To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Tuesday, August 30, 2011 10:55 PM
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Questions About Guide Dogs
> 
> 
>> There are times when I use a cane, or use a cane and heel my dog, but
>> really, it's more than 90% dog by now for me. I remember having the same
>> misgivings though. And, really, coordinating six legs and two brains does
>> work, and I haven't fallen off a curb or down a flight of stairs yet. Your
>> dog will stop at curbs and steps until you find them, and will then
>> continue upon your direction to do so. I hesitate to use the word
>> "command", because, even though we call them "commands" (forward, left,
>> right, and so on), they're really requests. The "Forward" isn't really a
>> command, as in, "Forward, let's go, no arguments". Rather, it's "Forward,
>> assuming it is safe to go forward". So it's sort of more like a request
>> than a command. It's one of the things that separates a guide dog's
>> training from lots of other training, the so-called "intelligent
>> disobedience". In our work, the dog has a certain amount of autonomy, a
>> certain amount of latitude to make decisions that just isn't the case with
>> a lot of training where"Sit" really means "Sit".
>> 
>> Yes, it really is a big adjustment, and a lot of adjustments. Not only do
>> you have to learn a whole new way to look at landmarks and clues and
>> orienting yourself, but you have to learn to give up a little bit of
>> control, and to trust. Easy to say, hard to do, and it's something that I,
>> certainly, struggle with, especially at first with a new dog. Fortunately,
>> dogs are flexible. Also fortunately, the dog is also learning to trust
>> you, so it's not all just you adjusting.
>> --
>> Buddy Brannan, KB5ELV - Erie, PA
>> Phone: (814) 860-3194 or 888-75-BUDDY
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> On Aug 30, 2011, at 10:38 PM, Tatyana wrote:
>> 
>>> Do you use a cane and  a dog? A cane for me now is  like a  part of me so
>>> I can't think to leave it and have a dog as the only helper. How to deal
>>> with curbs and bumps, not stumble?
>>> 
>>>> Hi Larry,
>>>> 
>>>> Yeah, these guys are great in what they can be taught. Given patience,
>>>> time, and some training tricks you're likely to learn at guide dog
>>>> school and pick up along the way here and elsewhere, a dog's ability to
>>>> learn new skills is amazing.
>>>> 
>>>> I do think it's important to discuss the differences in orientation with
>>>> a dog versus with a cane. While you will use many of the same skills,
>>>> such as finding landmarks and using environmental clues to determine
>>>> where you are in space, the landmarks and clues you use with a dog will
>>>> of necessity often be very different from the ones you use with a cane.
>>>> A cane will give you a lot of tactile landmarks, and you get a very
>>>> in-depth idea of your very immediate surroundings. This way, you can
>>>> know that you turn into the second driveway after the third mailbox on
>>>> your right. Or, you can know that just past the bench at shin level,
>>>> there is a trash can, and just past that you'll find a bus stop pole.
>>>> These kinds of things aren't as easy to do with a dog. Since your dog
>>>> will treat things in your path as obstacles, you can't very well use
>>>> them as landmarks, so you have to use other things, such as the change
>>>> in acoustics (for instance, are you under an overhanging roof or not),
>>>> changing in pavement texture, and the like, not to mention estimating
>>>> distances to things. As time goes on, you'll even learn to use things
>>>> like your dog's reaction as environmental clues unfamiliar routes.
>>>> Strange but true. I think someone said that with a dog, you've got more
>>>> of a macro view of your surroundings, where using a cane gives you a
>>>> micro view, or a more detailed view. Some people don't care about that,
>>>> while others may well feel very lost without all of the very immediate
>>>> tactile information one gets from a cane. I say there's a place for
>>>> both. Sometimes the close-in tactile world is a great tool for teaching
>>>> your dog something new, but sometimes that same view gets in the way and
>>>> slows you down. I'm sure I'm not explaining this well at all.
>>>> --
>>>> Buddy Brannan, KB5ELV - Erie, PA
>>>> Phone: (814) 860-3194 or 888-75-BUDDY
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> On Aug 30, 2011, at 9:48 PM, Larry D. Keeler wrote:
>>>> 
>>>>> My neighborhood is very walkable as well.  My mobility is pretty good.
>>>>> I like working with my Holly for a few reasons.  We can move really
>>>>> fast and not have to worry about bumping into anything.  For instance,
>>>>> I have to transfer busses often.  I try to run to catch the next bus
>>>>> and bump, bump, bump!!  I would have to have a head like a musk ox to
>>>>> survive all of those posts I bump into.  And a 30 foot cane to hit them
>>>>> in time to stop!  I haven't hit 1 post with Holly!  Also, Holly is just
>>>>> a great companion!  I forgot, she also will go around those cars who
>>>>> insist on sticking out in stopped traffic and finding those curb cuts
>>>>> quickly.  And she also finds the push button lights and now, the
>>>>> sheltered bus stops! I'm trying to think of a way she can find the bus
>>>>> stops that are not sheltered.
>>>>> Intelligence is always claimed but rarely proven!
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