[nagdu] nagdu Digest, Vol 71, Issue 10
Rick Fox
rick at 4dewitt.com
Thu Feb 3 20:37:36 UTC 2011
Hello Listers,
I'm on my fourth dog from TSE. When going to church with my new dogs for the
first time, some of them were really confused by the repeated standing and
sitting, thinking that every time I stood up, it was time to leave. Some of
them slept through all the activity. I guess they were the ones who got a
lot of church exposure from their puppy raisers.
Rick fox
-----Original Message-----
From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf
Of nagdu-request at nfbnet.org
Sent: Thursday, February 03, 2011 12:38 PM
To: nagdu at nfbnet.org
Subject: nagdu Digest, Vol 71, Issue 10
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Today's Topics:
1. Re: Issues (Tamara Smith-Kinney)
2. attention all pa residence new law to help us with guide dog
read and respond asap (Passle Helminski)
3. Re: Issues (d m gina)
4. Re: Issues (Cindy Ray)
5. Re: Blind-Drivable Car at Convention (Tamara Smith-Kinney)
6. Re: The Seeing Eye & Ownership (Sandra e. Finley)
7. UK: Blind woman left lying on the ground after her guide dog
was attacked (Ginger Kutsch)
8. Fidelco: Charles H. Kaman, Helicopter Innovator, Dies at 91
(Ginger Kutsch)
9. Re: Going out during training (Tracy Carcione)
10. Re: Going out during training (Margo and Arrow)
11. Blind Man Comes To The Rescue Of His Service Dog KRIS
(Ginger Kutsch)
12. Re: Going out during training (Terra Syslo)
13. going to church (Julie J)
14. Re: going to church (Michael Hingson)
15. Re: going to church (Tracy Carcione)
16. Re: going to church (Albert J Rizzi)
17. Re: Going out during training (Tracy Carcione)
18. Re: UK: Blind woman left lying on the ground after her
guidedog was attacked (Doug Parisian)
19. Re: Going out during training (Doug Parisian)
20. Re: Going out during training (Peggy)
21. Re: Going out during training (Peggy)
22. Re: Going out during training (Peter Donahue)
23. Re: going to church (PICKRELL, REBECCA M (TASC))
24. Re: going to church (Peter Donahue)
25. Re: The Seeing Eye & Ownership (Nicole B. Torcolini at Home)
26. Re: Going out during training (Peter Donahue)
27. question for those who have had children (Jessica Pitzer)
28. FIDELCO ownership rights and other things. (Bryan Brown)
29. Re: going to church (Margo and Arrow)
30. Re: question for those who have had children (Cindy Ray)
31. Re: going to church (Julie McGinnity)
32. Re: question for those who have had children
(PICKRELL, REBECCA M (TASC))
33. Re: going to church (Cindy Ray)
34. Re: question for those who have had children (Cindy Ray)
35. Re: FIDELCO ownership rights and other things. (Brenda)
36. Re: question for those who have had children
(PICKRELL, REBECCA M (TASC))
37. Re: question for those who have had children (Cindy Ray)
38. Re: question for those who have had children
(PICKRELL, REBECCA M (TASC))
39. Re: FIDELCO ownership rights and other things. (Marion Gwizdala)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message: 1
Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2011 18:52:40 -0800
From: "Tamara Smith-Kinney" <tamara.8024 at comcast.net>
To: "'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog
Users'" <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
Subject: Re: [nagdu] Issues
Message-ID: <67FB976B4B1745B6AC2BA589F6A76758 at tamidesktop>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
That's annoying! The phone call is.. The bit that started with "we knew
you were planning to come, so we've been talking about it ..." Well, I
don't think I would even notice my tact at that point as it leaped headfirst
out the window shrieking. /evil grin/ Perhaps the woman thought she was
being nice and even thoughtful, but .... How RUDE!
Well, sounds like you have the matter in hand. I've never had the joys of a
"we heard you were coming" phone call, but I've shown up to an event or two
to be greeted at the door with something along those lines... Even when I
had the cane pre-dog. /lol/ Used to be I could just show up at a place and
find a seat and do what people do and be very happy under the radar.
Can't you just picture them all sitting around saying, "Cindy is coming!
Cindy is coming! By land or by sea... " /lol/
Well, I wonder if I'll ever get used to that sort of thing, since I'm sure
it will happen again. Here, we made sure there's a clear path for you so
you can just sit here and be comfortable and Susie Q will bring you a plate,
and here's a rug for Mitzi ..." I actually have -- and probably will again
-- end up sitting where they put me because my own internal conflict over
the contrast between their apparent intended thoughtfulness and kindess
towards poor little blind me is so horrifically offensive and just downright
hair-raising.
Ain;t it fun?
Tami Smith-Kinney
-----Original Message-----
From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf
Of Cindy Ray
Sent: Wednesday, February 02, 2011 4:32 PM
To: the National Association of Guide Dog Users NAGDU Mailing List
Subject: [nagdu] Issues
Well, I think I'll bring up a new issue just for grins. Let's imagine you
are going to give blood one day. Let's imagine that you are planning to give
blood at this blood drive. OK, I don't have to imagine this because I am. I
haven't been able to give for a couple of times because of an infected
tooth, but that's TMI. So I am truly looking forward to it. My phone rang,
and the lady on the other end of the line identified herself, and she was
from the blood center. She said, "I understand you are planning to gie blood
at the Westminster Blood Drive. Now, we understand you have a service dog.
[I think that was her terminology.] We are going to be using a blood mobile
and the aisles are narrow in there. We've been talking about it and
wondering if you could leave the dog at the refreshment end so he won't get
stepped on." Who was talking about it. Why wouldn't they assume that I had
been using a dog long enough to know how to handle situations like that?
Truth be told, I had had him in there when I accompanied Bob in the next to
last time we were going to give. I don't doubt that the dog is btter off
left in a more comfortable place, but I don't need someone explaining to me
why that might be and asking me if I would mind to not bring him in there
because of the narrow aisles. I have a feeling I would have thought of it on
my own, and I did actually express my displeasure. I told her the fact that
she assumed I wouldn't figure out the best place for my dog was rather
annoying. She said she was sorry, she had just wanted to make it better and
guessed she had not. Before anybody tells me I might have been more tactful,
I would say that they would be right, but I think after you've used a dog
six months or less, and especially after twenty-two years, you are likely to
know how to handle the dog in a tight situation.
Cindy Lou
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------------------------------
Message: 2
Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2011 22:24:12 -0500
From: Passle Helminski <passle at roadrunner.com>
To: nagdu at nfbnet.org
Subject: [nagdu] attention all pa residence new law to help us with
guide dog read and respond asap
Message-ID: <a06240857c96fcf49f344@[192.168.1.5]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed"
>Hi,
Ken asked me to post his having a call on PA HB 165. Please cross post.
Passle
>hey passle please cross list to any lists that i'm not on.
>thanks
>ken
>----- Original Message -----
>From: <mailto:cj3639 at hotmail.com>Ken Quinn
>To: <mailto:blparent at nfbnet.org>NFBnet Blind Parents Mailing List
>Cc:
><mailto:nfbp-students at yahoogroups.com>nfbp-students at yahoogroups.com
>; <mailto:nfbp-parents at yahoogroups.com>nfbp-parents at yahoogroups.com
>; <mailto:nfbp-talk at yahoogroups.com>nfbp-talk at yahoogroups.com
>Sent: Wednesday, February 02, 2011 9:12 PM
>Subject: [NFB of Pennsylvania Students] attention all pa residence
>new law to help us with guide dog read and respond asap
>
>
>
>hello all,
>ken quinn here.
>recently the pa house representatives introduced hb 165 to help us with
>guide dogs. i am going to be having a conference call regarding the bill.
if
>all that are interested could please email me privately atht the following
>email
><mailto:cj3639 at hotmail.com>cj3639 at hotmail.com and put dog bill in
>the subject line, it would be
>appreciated. i am looking to get a time from everyone and day of the week
>that would work best for people. i will than from those responding set a
>date and time, along with the conference call info send privately to you.
>thanks for responding.
>ken quinn
>
------------------------------
Message: 3
Date: Wed, 02 Feb 2011 22:24:55 -0500
From: d m gina <dmgina at samobile.net>
To: nagdu at nfbnet.org
Subject: Re: [nagdu] Issues
Message-ID:
<20110203032455.30682.42669 at domU-12-31-38-07-3C-65.compute-1.internal>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format="flowed"
Hello
Every three months I go into an area for the folks to draw blood from me.
My dog is with me at all times.
He lies under my feet, and doesn't move.
Everyone is happy to see him.
I have no problems at all.
Original message:
> Well, I think I'll bring up a new issue just for grins. Let's imagine
> you are going to give blood one day. Let's imagine that you are
> planning to give blood at this blood drive. OK, I don't have to imagine
> this because I am. I haven't been able to give for a couple of times
> because of an infected tooth, but that's TMI. So I am truly looking
> forward to it. My phone rang, and the lady on the other end of the line
> identified herself, and she was from the blood center. She said, "I
> understand you are planning to gie blood at the Westminster Blood
> Drive. Now, we understand you have a service dog. [I think that was her
> terminology.] We are going to be using a blood mobile and the aisles
> are narrow in there. We've been talking about it and wondering if you
> could leave the dog at the refreshment end so he won't get stepped on."
> Who was talking about it. Why wouldn't they assume that I had been
> using a dog long enough to know how to handle situations like that?
> Truth be told, I had ha
> d him in there when I accompanied Bob in the next to last time we were
> going to give. I don't doubt that the dog is btter off left in a more
> comfortable place, but I don't need someone explaining to me why that
> might be and asking me if I would mind to not bring him in there
> because of the narrow aisles. I have a feeling I would have thought of
> it on my own, and I did actually express my displeasure. I told her the
> fact that she assumed I wouldn't figure out the best place for my dog
> was rather annoying. She said she was sorry, she had just wanted to
> make it better and guessed she had not. Before anybody tells me I might
> have been more tactful, I would say that they would be right, but I
> think after you've used a dog six months or less, and especially after
> twenty-two years, you are likely to know how to handle the dog in a
> tight situation.
> Cindy Lou
> _______________________________________________
> nagdu mailing list
> nagdu at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
nagdu:
>
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--
--Dar
skype: dmgina23
FB: dmgina
www.twitter.com/dmgina
every saint has a past
every sinner has a future
Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. Visit
www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere.
------------------------------
Message: 4
Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2011 22:01:54 -0600
From: Cindy Ray <cindyray at gmail.com>
To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
<nagdu at nfbnet.org>
Subject: Re: [nagdu] Issues
Message-ID: <73127BCF-7D00-4E12-85B3-6AF1960BD53C at gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Oh, they don't have a problem with him being there, but the space in the
blood mobiles is narrow, I'll grant that. Always before when I've given he's
been right there with me.
On Feb 2, 2011, at 9:24 PM, d m gina wrote:
> Hello
> Every three months I go into an area for the folks to draw blood from me.
> My dog is with me at all times.
> He lies under my feet, and doesn't move.
> Everyone is happy to see him.
> I have no problems at all.
>
> Original message:
>> Well, I think I'll bring up a new issue just for grins. Let's imagine you
are going to give blood one day. Let's imagine that you are planning to give
blood at this blood drive. OK, I don't have to imagine this because I am. I
haven't been able to give for a couple of times because of an infected
tooth, but that's TMI. So I am truly looking forward to it. My phone rang,
and the lady on the other end of the line identified herself, and she was
from the blood center. She said, "I understand you are planning to gie blood
at the Westminster Blood Drive. Now, we understand you have a service dog.
[I think that was her terminology.] We are going to be using a blood mobile
and the aisles are narrow in there. We've been talking about it and
wondering if you could leave the dog at the refreshment end so he won't get
stepped on." Who was talking about it. Why wouldn't they assume that I had
been using a dog long enough to know how to handle situations like that?
Truth be told, I had ha
>> d him in there when I accompanied Bob in the next to last time we were
going to give. I don't doubt that the dog is btter off left in a more
comfortable place, but I don't need someone explaining to me why that might
be and asking me if I would mind to not bring him in there because of the
narrow aisles. I have a feeling I would have thought of it on my own, and I
did actually express my displeasure. I told her the fact that she assumed I
wouldn't figure out the best place for my dog was rather annoying. She said
she was sorry, she had just wanted to make it better and guessed she had
not. Before anybody tells me I might have been more tactful, I would say
that they would be right, but I think after you've used a dog six months or
less, and especially after twenty-two years, you are likely to know how to
handle the dog in a tight situation.
>
>> Cindy Lou
>
>
>> _______________________________________________
>> nagdu mailing list
>> nagdu at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
nagdu:
>>
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/dmgina%40samobile.net
>
> --
> --Dar
> skype: dmgina23
> FB: dmgina
> www.twitter.com/dmgina
> every saint has a past
> every sinner has a future
>
> Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. Visit
www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> nagdu mailing list
> nagdu at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
nagdu:
>
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/cindyray%40gmail.com
------------------------------
Message: 5
Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2011 22:11:24 -0800
From: "Tamara Smith-Kinney" <tamara.8024 at comcast.net>
To: "'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog
Users'" <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
Subject: Re: [nagdu] Blind-Drivable Car at Convention
Message-ID: <D64992AEECCA4B9D96E39FE275636696 at tamidesktop>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Yeah, that it exactly. Because it's so Mitzi. Half the reason I'm so
thrilled about the drivable car for blind people is because it is a scenario
in which I can drive (okay, it's been 12 years, still not entirely over it)
but still *have my guide dog*!
When the subject of a cure for blindness used to come up -- for no
particular reason involving the presence of a white cane in the room -- and
what would the person standing nearest the white cane do and feel about it,
althought there was no real reason for asking, whichever member of the group
asked was just wondering ... /lol/ Sorry for the diversion there, but it
took me a long time to ever be sure I could keep a straight face and
maintain an attitude of listening while pretending to be perfectly ignorant
of the fact that some well-meaning overly well-coached in manners fool was
beating around the bush about the fact that I am, well, you know, I don't
mean to be offensive, but ...
Okay. Ten minutes later, we get to the question on everyone's mind (except
for the person standing nearest the white cane; the white cane has never
seemed to care): What would would you do? That's not the real question of
course, or at least it's not what the folks are really wondering. They're
wondering what it feels like to be blind. What does a blind person feel
about themselves being blind, about being blind. How can someone just
accept it like that? Is it cool? Or weird. Could *I* (not me, the blind
one) accept it and go on?
My answer back then was pretty pat: Only if the reversal of my vision loos
would allow me to both read and drive! Then I would add some detail with
occasional smile or grin or even rueful grimace to answer some of the
emotional questions while attempting to convey and overall message of ...
well, whatever.
Only since I've really started using Mitzi as a guide -- even back when I
was learning to be a handler, not a trainer, and she was still a major PITA,
I've had a moral dilemma with the driving thing and have lived in fear of
someone asking. /lol/ Okay, I'm overdramatizing, but even when DD and I
chatting idly about some medical advance or other over Saturday morning
coffee, I find myself worrying about where Mitzi fits in with a cure for the
blindness part of my not driving. I *always* picture her there in my mental
image, and I *always* picture getting out of the car with her and grabbing
the harness handle to go to work...
It's just silly, I know, but driving and still needing a guide dog makes
that mental image make sense for me.
Aside from my personal foibles that I don't take seriously beyond enjoying
the entertainment value unless there's something in it that useful in my
growth as a blidn person, I am very excited abou the development and public
demonstrations of the technology and its use by an honest-to-goodness blind
person for the reasons so many others have expressed far better than I
could. Will it become something those of us here now will someday use in
our daily lives? I would love that! In know it's not a guarantee, but it
is a happy, happy thought.
In the meantime, the concept of "blind" and that of "driver" are no longer
mutually exclusive in our cultural collective consciousness... True, there
are still parts of the overall puplation that can't wrap their minds around
"blind" and "work" but the idea is out there. It *will* sink in over time.
And it will change what it means to be blind for the majority culture.
Which will change things for those of us who are blind. Exciting stuff.
And maybe someday I'll have my little red sports car *and* my guide dog.
Don't get better than that! /lol/ Except for affordable adaptive tech for
all. Which will come eventually, too. Somday ...
Tami Smith-Kinney
-----Original Message-----
From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf
Of Nicole B. Torcolini at Home
Sent: Wednesday, February 02, 2011 3:52 PM
To: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users
Subject: Re: [nagdu] Blind-Drivable Car at Convention
Tami,
That's so you...I can just imagine it. A red car, zooming down the road,
black poodle Mitzi sticking her head out the passenger window, tongue out
and ears flapping.
Nicole and Lexia (who does not stick her head out car windows)
----- Original Message -----
From: "Tamara Smith-Kinney" <tamara.8024 at comcast.net>
To: "'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users'"
<nagdu at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Tuesday, February 01, 2011 4:10 PM
Subject: Re: [nagdu] Blind-Drivable Car at Convention
> Oh, but I want to live long enough to drive into town, parallel park
> beside
> a busy sidewalk then hop out for the car with my guide dog and walk the
> rest
> of the way to work (or shopping, I'm easy)! Or even with my whtie cane.
> Either way, it would be funny. Well, I guess not being able to see the
> looks on people's faces when they first start seeing those sorts of sights
> is a bit of a bummer, but I can imagine what they will be. /lol/
>
> I fear you may be right about attitudes and so forth. Then again, even
> though it seems like in some areas we're in a reverse pendulum swing, the
> wacked out economy and the housing crisis and the general shake up in what
> our culture at large has believed is the way things just are because
> that's
> how they're supposed to be could result in suprising changes in the social
> order once the dust settles. I admit, I tend to have a grim view
> sometimes,
> since historically the blind do not fare well in crisis based cultural
> upheavals... But then I realize it's very possible that we gained enough
> ground leading up to this, and we've benefitted from so many advances in
> technology, that we could come out even or even ahead... As would other
> disability groups, for the same reason. Hard to say, really, since the
> dust
> isn't finished rising into the air as far as anyway can maybe almost sort
> of
> agree.
>
> Still, someone was pointing out that blind people are getting a boost in
> terms of gaining employment because so many others have given up on even
> looking out of sheer discouragement. That's cool.
>
> So, who knows, maybe when the blind-drivable car comes onto the market and
> the infrastructure is there for it, they will actually allow blind people
> to
> drive it. I want that sporty red convertible! /grin/
>
> Tami Smith-Kinney
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf
> Of Buddy Brannan
> Sent: Tuesday, February 01, 2011 2:31 PM
> To: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Blind-Drivable Car at Convention
>
> Hi,
>
> Oh, I'm completely with you on your analogy with the Wright brothers. Will
> we see blind people driving in our lifetime? I sure hope so. As I've said
> elsewhere (as have others, I'm sure), I believe the attitude and
> legislative
> barriers are going to be much harder to manage than the technological ones
> will. I think the technology will be ready in our lifetimes, but I'm not
> so
> sure that sighted drivers will be as willing to share the roads with us,
> and
> that's going to be the harder battle to win. (I suspect that by the time
> we
> *do* win that one, everyone will have automated vehicles and it won't
> matter.) Having said that though, the technological offshoots of this, and
> the developments that come of it in goodness knows how many areas, will be
> tremendous.
> --
> Buddy Brannan, KB5ELV - Erie, PA
> Phone: (814) 860-3194 or 888-75-BUDDY
>
>
>
> On Feb 1, 2011, at 4:58 PM, Rovig, Lorraine wrote:
>
>> Dear Buddy,
>> It is also worth noting, in a practical sense, that from the first flight
> by the Wright Brothers at Kittyhawk to the first step on the moon took 50
> years. I think this trip at Daytona Racetrack is the equivelent of a
> Kittyhawk for a blind driver. I wouldn't expect a Wright Brother to fly
> that airplane of theirs anywhere but on a closed beach until they solved a
> few more problems. On the other hand, fifty years isn't so long for such
> a
> huge leap of mankind as stepping on the moon. I expect blind drivers will
> be on the open roads in my lifetime. Here is a link to more information
> about the Daytona trip by Mark Riccobono as found on the NFB Website:
>>
>> Blind Man Drives Car Independently
>> The NFB announced today that for the first time a blind individual has
> driven a street vehicle in public without the assistance of a sighted
> person. Mark Anthony Riccobono, a blind executive who directs technology,
> research, and education programs for the organization, was behind the
> wheel
> of a Ford Escape hybrid equipped with nonvisual technology and
> successfully
> navigated 1.5 miles of the road course section of the famed track at the
> Daytona International Speedway. For more information on this historic
> moment, please read the digital news release with audio and video or the
> official press release. http://www.digitalnewsrelease.com/?q=nfb_daytona
> and
>> http://www.nfb.org/nfb/NewsBot.asp?MODE=VIEW&ID=760
>>
>> Lorraine Rovig
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>> Behalf
> Of Buddy Brannan
>> Sent: Tuesday, February 01, 2011 4:24 PM
>> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Blind-Drivable Car at Convention
>>
>> No, there's no strip in the road. Speed strips" are vibraing things that
> are in a cushion under the driver's legs and up his back. These give
> information about whether he can speed up or slow down. The files on
> blindbargains.com are fantastic. BTW, I doubt that any blind people will
> drive the car on the open road. Putting aside the whole issue of not
> having
> driver's licenses and not being insured, I really don't think that the
> technology is quite ready for real world use. Probably won't be for some
> time yet. And count on legal hurdles and red tape beyond that before we
> can
> actually have a car that we can drive, and never mind the cost of having
> such a car modded. Think a van with a wheelchair lift is expensive? I'd
> bet
> this will be more.
>> --
>> Buddy Brannan, KB5ELV - Erie, PA
>> Phone: (814) 860-3194 or 888-75-BUDDY
>>
>>
>>
>> On Feb 1, 2011, at 3:23 PM, cheryl echevarria wrote:
>>
>>> neither did I.
>>>
>>> The biggest compliment you can pay me is to recommend my services!
>>>
>>> Cheryl Echevarria
>>> http://www.Echevarriatravel.com<http://www.echevarriatravel.com/>
>>> 1-866-580-5574 or 631-456-5394
>>>
>
reservations at echevarriatravel.com<mailto:reservations at echevarriatravel.com>
>>>
>>> Affiliated as an Independent Contractor with Montrose Travel
> CST-1018299-10
>>> Affiliated as an Independent Contractor with Absolute Cruise and Travel
> Inc.
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: Albert J Rizzi<mailto:albert at myblindspot.org>
>>> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog
> Users'<mailto:nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>> Sent: Tuesday, February 01, 2011 3:18 PM
>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Blind-Drivable Car at Convention
>>>
>>>
>>> I did not hear anything about needing a strip on the road or anything
> like
>>> that to tell you the truth.
>>>
>>> Albert J. Rizzi, M.Ed.
>>> Founder
>>> My Blind Spot, Inc.
>>> 90 Broad Street - 18th Fl.
>>> New York, New York 10004
>>> www.myblindspot.org<http://www.myblindspot.org/>
>>> PH: 917-553-0347
>>> Fax: 212-858-5759
>>> "The person who says it cannot be done, shouldn't interrupt the one who
> is
>>> doing it."
>>>
>>>
>>> Visit us on Facebook LinkedIn
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org<mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org>
> [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf
>>> Of Cindy Ray
>>> Sent: Tuesday, February 01, 2011 3:13 PM
>>> To: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Blind-Drivable Car at Convention
>>>
>>> There are probably plenty of software issues to iron out. Also, as I
>>> understand it, mostly the car has to drive on a strip that heops with
>>> the
>>> sensors, but I could be wrong. Blind Bargains has a podcast of the
>>> drive,
>>> complete with the crowd there, race announcers, and all, and a press
>>> conference. I think it is blindbargains.com though it could be .org.
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> nagdu mailing list
>>> nagdu at nfbnet.org<mailto:nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>>
>
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org<http://www.nfbnet.or
> g/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org>
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> nagdu:
>>>
>
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/albert%40myblindspot<
>
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/albert%40myblindspot>
>.
>>> org
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> nagdu mailing list
>>> nagdu at nfbnet.org<mailto:nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>>
>
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> g/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org>
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>
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>
il.com<http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/cherylandmaxx%
> 40hotmail.com>
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>>
>>
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------------------------------
Message: 6
Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2011 07:02:48 -0500
From: "Sandra e. Finley" <finleyknits at gmail.com>
To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
<nagdu at nfbnet.org>
Subject: Re: [nagdu] The Seeing Eye & Ownership
Message-ID: <737B44126A214189865AEAE477D17FCF at sandy>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
reply-type=original
I kind of like GDB's policy that I don't own the dog immediately upon
graduation but am free to apply for ownership; I forget if it is after one
or two years. Through no fault of mine or theirs I had difficulty with one
dog within the first year after she was issued and she had to be returned
and retired. At the time I somehow felt good that I did not own her. I
truly believe this is all psychological whether we own the dog or not.
Repputable organizations are going to provide appropriate follow up
regardless of ownership. In 37 years of guide dog use I have never worried
that either of the two schools i have used would come and take back my
seasoned, working guide. Why would they? I recently had a major vet bill to
save my dog's life and GDB was most responsive, helping us with the parts we
felt we could not afford. I don't think that TSE or GDB or any of the other
reputable organizations base a decision of follow up, payment of vet bills
or
retirement on who owns the dog. I say, isn't it good we have organizations
with difffering policies? It Gives us some choice.
Sandy
----- Original Message -----
From: "Marion Gwizdala" <blind411 at verizon.net>
To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
<nagdu at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Tuesday, February 01, 2011 6:11 AM
Subject: [nagdu] The Seeing Eye & Ownership
> Dear All,
> Let me begin by saying I am not a seeing Eye consumer. It is my opinion
> that The Seeing Eye has it right, as it relates to ownership. In short,
> TSE believes that the dog belongs to the consumer and it is the consumer's
> right to make all decisions as it pertains to the dog. This includes both
> early and end-of-work retirement,even after the consumer makes the
> difficult choice to surrender the dog, as illustrated by Peggy's
> experience.
> One untruth Mr. Russman stated during our telephone conversation, when
> I asserted that TSE grants full ownership upon completion of training, was
> that TSE does not offer any sort of follow-up. I told him I knew too many
> TSE consumers and that he was absolutely wrong. Then he qualified his
> statement by saying something like, "Well, not to the level of Fidelco!"
> If, by that he means the type of follow-up in which they call and say, "I
> am five minutes from your house and I am coming over to see your dog!", he
> is right! I feel no guide dog program should impose themselves upon their
> consumers. Such tactics are very intimidating and paternalistic!
>
> Fraternally yours,
> Marion Gwizdala
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Peggy" <pshald at neb.rr.com>
> To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Monday, January 31, 2011 11:38 PM
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Guide Dog Handler Bill of Rights
>
>
>> With Se, once you leave the school with that dog it's yours to do what
>> you wish with, hopefully work it. But when it retires, no matter when
>> that is, you can choose to keep him/her or give him/her to a friend or
>> family, or send him/her back to SE. When I gave up my first dog, a
>> yellow lab, that was having some definate anxiety issues, I had only
>> worked her for a year and a half ... I could have kept her, given her to
>> someone ... what I chose to do was send her back to SE to see if they
>> could work with her and maybe she could continue guide dog work. She did
>> retire and they notified me that she could not be retrained and even
>> asked if I wanted her back as a pet. Just thought I'd share because I saw
>> at the end of the post you said you weren't sure if after a short time
>> they'd still let you keep the dog ... at least I thought that's what you
>> meant.
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Cindy Ray
>> Sent: Sunday, January 30, 2011 4:00 PM
>> To: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Guide Dog Handler Bill of Rights
>>
>> If you get a dog at TSE and within the first year you find that the dog
>> is not working out for you, they will replace it and apply the fee to the
>> next dog and call it an adjustment. In such a case, it would be only
>> right for you to return the dog to them. Jordan's is the only story I
>> have ever heard of a repossession, and I suspect there is more to the
>> story that we don't know and probably don't have a right to know, but it
>> seems like aserioius allegation given that this is not their policy and
>> the dog is yours upon leaving the school. To say they don't care is
>> really what you perceive, many of the rest of us do not see that. When I
>> hae not been able to continue with a dog (and I two such within a year's
>> period that had to return) I would never have found the dog a home but,
>> rather, would hve wanted to return it there for their evaluation. The two
>> with which I experienced it were retired, far as I know, and the one I
>> had for two years and returned, I did because I thought he might be a
>> better fit for someone else. I think I could have given him away if I had
>> wanted to. Never tested out this theory.
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> nagdu mailing list
>> nagdu at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> nagdu:
>>
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>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Friends are like a snow flake.
>> If you pee on them they go away
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
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t
>
>
> _______________________________________________
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om
------------------------------
Message: 7
Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2011 07:54:29 -0500
From: "Ginger Kutsch" <gingerKutsch at yahoo.com>
To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
<nagdu at nfbnet.org>
Subject: [nagdu] UK: Blind woman left lying on the ground after her
guide dog was attacked
Message-ID: <BA5026F3703C47D98AE067C00B97949A at gbk>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Blind woman left lying on the ground after her guide dog was
attacked by an Alsatian in Little Sutton
Feb 2 2011
by Selena O'Donnell, Ellesmere Port Pioneer, UK
A BLIND woman was knocked to the ground trying to protect her
guide dog in an unprovoked attack from an Alsatian.
Joanne Roberts, of Armthorpe Drive, Little Sutton, has called for
owners to keep their dogs on leads after her black Labrador
retriever Uska was attacked.
Mrs Roberts tried to fend off the dog but fell over and was
outraged when the owner ran off without helping her.
"The Alsatian was snarling and barking aggressively before
jumping on the back of my Uska, who was on a harness."
"I tried to kick the dog off the back of Uska but lost my balance
and fell to the floor."
The Alsatian finally let go of Uska and ran off to the other side
of the road where his owner grabbed hold of him and retrieved the
harness which he handed back.
Joanne said: "I asked his name while I struggled on the floor but
he just ran off, with his dog, and left me.
"I was distraught about my dog, who was, by then, standing
patiently by my side.
"I tried to find any wounds and an anonymous lady, with a crutch,
came over to help. She was lovely, if appalled at what she had
just witnessed."
Both Joanne and Uska escaped without serious injury but the
incident has left them shaken.
"It was like a member of my family being attacked, it's just so
upsetting.
"I don't blame the dog, I blame his owner..
"He shouldn't have been off the lead in a park in the middle of a
housing estate.
"I want people to be aware that guide dogs get attacked
Guide Dogs for the Blind Association campaign manager David
Chowdrey said: "The result of these attacks can be personally
devastating for the dog and the owner."
Source:
http://www.ellesmereportpioneer.co.uk/ellesmere-port-news/local-e
llesmere-port-news/2011/02/02/blind-woman-left-lying-on-the-groun
d-after-her-guide-dog-was-attacked-by-an-alsatian-in-little-sutto
n-55940-28096084/
------------------------------
Message: 8
Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2011 08:11:29 -0500
From: "Ginger Kutsch" <gingerKutsch at yahoo.com>
To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
<nagdu at nfbnet.org>
Subject: [nagdu] Fidelco: Charles H. Kaman, Helicopter Innovator, Dies
at 91
Message-ID: <BDDFF1F5D4704D5CBED6EE93D01F6852 at gbk>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Charles H. Kaman, Helicopter Innovator, Dies at 91
By MOTOKO RICH
Published: February 2, 2011
NYTimes.com
Mr. Kaman, who had suffered several strokes over the last decade,
died of complications of pneumonia, his daughter, Cathleen Kaman,
said. He lived in Bloomfield.
Mr. Kaman (pronounced ka-MAN) was a 26-year-old aeronautical
engineer when he founded the Kaman Aircraft Company in 1945 in
the garage of his mother's home in West Hartford, Conn. By the
time he retired as chairman in 2001, he had built the Kaman
Corporation into a billion-dollar concern that distributes
motors, pumps, bearings and other products as well as making
helicopters and their parts.
Within the aerospace industry, Mr. Kaman is best known for
inventing dual intermeshing helicopter rotors, which move in
opposite directions, and for introducing the gas turbine jet
engine to helicopters. The company's HH-43 Huskie was a workhorse
in rescue missions in the Vietnam War.
Mr. Kaman, a guitar enthusiast, also invented the Ovation guitar,
effectively reversing the vibration-reducing technology of
helicopters to create a generously vibrating instrument that
incorporated aerospace materials into its rounded back. In the
mid-1960s he created Ovation Instruments, a division of his
company, to manufacture it.
The Ovation allows musicians to amplify their sound without
generating the feedback that often comes from using microphones.
It was popularized in the late 1960s by the pop and country star
Glen Campbell, who played it on his television show, "The Glen
Campbell Good Time Hour," and who appeared in advertisements for
the company. A long roster of rock and folk music guitarists
began using it as well.
With his second wife, Roberta Hallock Kaman, Mr. Kaman founded
the Fidelco Guide Dog Foundation, which trains German shepherds
as guide dogs for the blind and the police. Since 1981, Fidelco
has placed 1,300 guide dogs in 35 states and four Canadian
provinces, said Eliot D. Russman, the foundation's executive
director.
"It came down to the helicopters, guitars and dogs," Mr. Kaman's
eldest son, C. William Kaman II, said in a telephone interview.
In addition to his daughter, Cathleen, an artist who is known
professionally as Beanie Kaman, and his son William, Mr. Kaman is
survived by another son, Steven; four grandchildren; and two
great-grandchildren.
Born on June 15, 1919, in Washington, Charles Huron Kaman was the
only child of Charles William Kaman and Mabel Davis Kaman. As a
teenager, he loved building model airplanes from balsa wood and
tissue paper and flying them in indoor competitions. He had once
hoped to be a professional pilot but abandoned that ambition
because he was deaf in his right ear.
He received his bachelor's degree in aeronautical engineering
from the Catholic University of America in 1940. After
graduating, he went to work at Hamilton Standard Propeller
Corporation, a unit of United Aircraft. He soon met Igor
Sikorsky, another pioneer in helicopter design, who ran United's
helicopter division and who inspired Mr. Kaman to begin
developing his own parts.
One of his first inventions was the "servo-flap," which could be
added to the edges of a rotor blade to help stabilize a
helicopter. But one of his greatest contributions was to
introduce jet engines to helicopters.
"It gave them more power," said Walter J. Boyne, chairman of the
National Aeronautic Association and the author of numerous books
on aviation. "Helicopters really moved into their own."
Terry Fogarty, who worked closely with Mr. Kaman for nearly a
decade developing the K-MAX "aerial truck," said Mr. Kaman, who
developed the first remote-control helicopter in 1957, envisioned
an unmanned cargo helicopter that would take over the "dull,
dirty and dangerous missions."
The company is developing such a helicopter, based on the K-MAX,
and has a contract to deploy it to the Marine Corps for use in
Afghanistan.
Mr. Kaman married Helen Sylvander in 1945; they divorced in 1971.
Later that year he married Roberta Hallock, who died last year.
Ms. Kaman recalled her father strumming different versions of the
Ovation in a studio at home, trying to figure out how deep or
shallow to make the rounded back to produce the best sound.
"That was his big gift to the three of us," she said. "When he
would come home, he would play guitar."
------------------------------
Message: 9
Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2011 08:14:33 -0500
From: "Tracy Carcione" <carcione at access.net>
To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
<nagdu at nfbnet.org>
Subject: Re: [nagdu] Going out during training
Message-ID: <1f16489fc019733607d56ac57a114270.squirrel at mail.panix.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1
You've got it, Rox! Except that the volunteers don't take you shopping;
they do it for you.
I must say, it is pretty nice to be able to only concentrate on the new
dog and our work together, and not have to deal with the everyday business
of cooking and cleaning. Though I wouldn't say no to home training, should
it ever be offered.
Tracy
> Wow, you know I'm starting to realize that a major down side to owner
> training is that guide dog schools sound like they are kinda cushy
> places in which to live for 3 or 4 weeks. Someone cooks for you,
> cleans for you, provides you books to read, and volunteers to take you
> shopping.
> The staff at my particular DIY guide dog program are lazy, don't cook
> regularly, clean less frequently, and there is nothing exciting to do
> in between training times unless it is the afore-mentioned cooking and
> cleaning.
> Maybe I've got it all wrong.
> LOL!
>
> Rox and the Botanical Barkers:
> Bristol (retired), Mill'E SD. and Laveau Guide Dog, CGC.
> "The only problem with troubleshooting is, sometimes, trouble shoots
> back."
> http://www.pawpowercreations.com
> pawpower4me at gmail.com
> AIM: Brissysgirl
>
> _______________________________________________
> nagdu mailing list
> nagdu at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> nagdu:
>
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>
------------------------------
Message: 10
Date: Thu, 03 Feb 2011 08:26:49 -0500
From: "Margo and Arrow" <margo.downey at verizon.net>
To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
<nagdu at nfbnet.org>
Subject: Re: [nagdu] Going out during training
Message-ID: <2500A48DB9AC43F6B96EF140FC44ED1E at meandmyarrow>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=iso-8859-1;
reply-type=original
during the last part of training, we were expected to get our own stuff from
the stores. Oops, forgot to mention that I'm talking about The Seeing Eye.
the first couple of weeks, though, the volunteers do the shopping and do a
great job.
I really don't have a preference about going off campus or not after
training time. If it was a possibility, I'd do that; if not, okay. I want
to concentrate on my new dog, getting to know the dog, etc. At the Seeing
eye, if you go to church, the first time you go to church, the dog stays on
campus. the subsequent time or times, the dog can go with you to church.
an instructor takes you to church and picks you up from church.
At least this is how I remember it.
Margo and Arrow
----- Original Message -----
From: "Tracy Carcione" <carcione at access.net>
To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
<nagdu at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Thursday, February 03, 2011 8:14 AM
Subject: Re: [nagdu] Going out during training
> You've got it, Rox! Except that the volunteers don't take you shopping;
> they do it for you.
> I must say, it is pretty nice to be able to only concentrate on the new
> dog and our work together, and not have to deal with the everyday business
> of cooking and cleaning. Though I wouldn't say no to home training, should
> it ever be offered.
> Tracy
>
>
>> Wow, you know I'm starting to realize that a major down side to owner
>> training is that guide dog schools sound like they are kinda cushy
>> places in which to live for 3 or 4 weeks. Someone cooks for you,
>> cleans for you, provides you books to read, and volunteers to take you
>> shopping.
>> The staff at my particular DIY guide dog program are lazy, don't cook
>> regularly, clean less frequently, and there is nothing exciting to do
>> in between training times unless it is the afore-mentioned cooking and
>> cleaning.
>> Maybe I've got it all wrong.
>> LOL!
>>
>> Rox and the Botanical Barkers:
>> Bristol (retired), Mill'E SD. and Laveau Guide Dog, CGC.
>> "The only problem with troubleshooting is, sometimes, trouble shoots
>> back."
>> http://www.pawpowercreations.com
>> pawpower4me at gmail.com
>> AIM: Brissysgirl
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> nagdu mailing list
>> nagdu at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> nagdu:
>>
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>>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
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> nagdu at nfbnet.org
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> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
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n.net
------------------------------
Message: 11
Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2011 08:36:43 -0500
From: "Ginger Kutsch" <gingerKutsch at yahoo.com>
To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
<nagdu at nfbnet.org>
Subject: [nagdu] Blind Man Comes To The Rescue Of His Service Dog KRIS
Message-ID: <7E7454E3AFF942EFB88F60583F7053D5 at gbk>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Blind Man Comes To The Rescue Of His Service Dog KRIS
Posted: Feb 2, 2011 7:01 PM by Manuel Venegas -
mvenegas at kristv.com
KZTV10
Source:
http://www.kztv10.com/news/blind-man-comes-to-the-rescue-of-his-s
ervice-dog/
CORPUS CHRISTI - A blind man says he had to hold down a dangerous
pit bull for 45 minutes before animal control came to pick it up
on Tuesday. Charles McLennan says he heard growling in his yard,
and went out to find a pit bull attacking his dog.
"I had punched it three times to get it off of my dog and then I
had dragged it into my apartment to keep it away from the
neighbor kids so it wouldn't get away and I could call 911," says
McLellan, The dog is now in the custody of animal control. We're
told McLennan's dog suffered some minor puncture wounds, but will
be okay.
------------------------------
Message: 12
Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2011 07:37:46 -0600
From: "Terra Syslo" <tlsyslo at yahoo.com>
To: "'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog
Users'" <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
Subject: Re: [nagdu] Going out during training
Message-ID: <00c001cbc3a7$902e2890$b08a79b0$@com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
That must have changed from when I was there. That was several years ago
though. They sent someone to the store I think a couple times a week, and I
don't ever remember having to go get my own stuff.
Check out my groups: blindshoppers-subscribe at yahoogroups.com and
blindrecipeexchange-subscribe at yahoogroups.com
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-----Original Message-----
From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf
Of Margo and Arrow
Sent: Thursday, February 03, 2011 7:27 AM
To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
Subject: Re: [nagdu] Going out during training
during the last part of training, we were expected to get our own stuff from
the stores. Oops, forgot to mention that I'm talking about The Seeing Eye.
the first couple of weeks, though, the volunteers do the shopping and do a
great job.
I really don't have a preference about going off campus or not after
training time. If it was a possibility, I'd do that; if not, okay. I want
to concentrate on my new dog, getting to know the dog, etc. At the Seeing
eye, if you go to church, the first time you go to church, the dog stays on
campus. the subsequent time or times, the dog can go with you to church.
an instructor takes you to church and picks you up from church.
At least this is how I remember it.
Margo and Arrow
----- Original Message -----
From: "Tracy Carcione" <carcione at access.net>
To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
<nagdu at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Thursday, February 03, 2011 8:14 AM
Subject: Re: [nagdu] Going out during training
> You've got it, Rox! Except that the volunteers don't take you shopping;
> they do it for you.
> I must say, it is pretty nice to be able to only concentrate on the new
> dog and our work together, and not have to deal with the everyday business
> of cooking and cleaning. Though I wouldn't say no to home training, should
> it ever be offered.
> Tracy
>
>
>> Wow, you know I'm starting to realize that a major down side to owner
>> training is that guide dog schools sound like they are kinda cushy
>> places in which to live for 3 or 4 weeks. Someone cooks for you,
>> cleans for you, provides you books to read, and volunteers to take you
>> shopping.
>> The staff at my particular DIY guide dog program are lazy, don't cook
>> regularly, clean less frequently, and there is nothing exciting to do
>> in between training times unless it is the afore-mentioned cooking and
>> cleaning.
>> Maybe I've got it all wrong.
>> LOL!
>>
>> Rox and the Botanical Barkers:
>> Bristol (retired), Mill'E SD. and Laveau Guide Dog, CGC.
>> "The only problem with troubleshooting is, sometimes, trouble shoots
>> back."
>> http://www.pawpowercreations.com
>> pawpower4me at gmail.com
>> AIM: Brissysgirl
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> nagdu mailing list
>> nagdu at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> nagdu:
>>
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/carcione%40access.net
>>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
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> nagdu at nfbnet.org
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> nagdu:
>
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------------------------------
Message: 13
Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2011 07:51:47 -0600
From: "Julie J" <julielj at neb.rr.com>
To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
<nagdu at nfbnet.org>
Subject: [nagdu] going to church
Message-ID: <00ef01cbc3a9$80174890$0201a8c0 at your07cc84feb2>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
The topic of going to church while at guide dog school has fascinated me for
years. So today I'm just going to ask, how exactly does this work? I mean
is there one church that everyone goes to? Or do you get to pick which one
you want to attend? what if your religion isn't Christian, will they take
you to a Temple, Mosque or other place of worship, given that there is one
in the area? Also what if your day of worship isn't Sunday, are there
options for worship services on other days?
I'm asking out of sheer curiosity. I don't attend church myself.
Julie
------------------------------
Message: 14
Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2011 06:06:58 -0800
From: "Michael Hingson" <mhingson at sbcglobal.net>
To: "'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog
Users'" <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
Subject: Re: [nagdu] going to church
Message-ID: <014201cbc3ab$9f373350$dda599f0$@net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
When I attended classes at GDB people were taken by volunteers to the church
of their choice.
-----Original Message-----
From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf
Of Julie J
Sent: Thursday, February 03, 2011 5:52 AM
To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
Subject: [nagdu] going to church
The topic of going to church while at guide dog school has fascinated me for
years. So today I'm just going to ask, how exactly does this work? I mean
is there one church that everyone goes to? Or do you get to pick which one
you want to attend? what if your religion isn't Christian, will they take
you to a Temple, Mosque or other place of worship, given that there is one
in the area? Also what if your day of worship isn't Sunday, are there
options for worship services on other days?
I'm asking out of sheer curiosity. I don't attend church myself.
Julie
_______________________________________________
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http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nagdu:
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/mhingson%40sbcglobal.
net
------------------------------
Message: 15
Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2011 09:09:14 -0500
From: "Tracy Carcione" <carcione at access.net>
To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
<nagdu at nfbnet.org>
Subject: Re: [nagdu] going to church
Message-ID: <4d4f2900b423b3ecae84816f83e4f8f7.squirrel at mail.panix.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1
GDB or TSE, and I assume the rest, will take you to any worship in the
area on Sunday.
Don't know what they do, if, say you're an Orthodox Jew who has to keep
the Sabbath on Saturday, which includes a lot of other restrictions.
> The topic of going to church while at guide dog school has fascinated me
> for years. So today I'm just going to ask, how exactly does this work? I
> mean is there one church that everyone goes to? Or do you get to pick
> which one you want to attend? what if your religion isn't Christian, will
> they take you to a Temple, Mosque or other place of worship, given that
> there is one in the area? Also what if your day of worship isn't Sunday,
> are there options for worship services on other days?
>
> I'm asking out of sheer curiosity. I don't attend church myself.
>
> Julie
> _______________________________________________
> nagdu mailing list
> nagdu at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> nagdu:
>
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/carcione%40access.net
>
------------------------------
Message: 16
Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2011 09:10:13 -0500
From: "Albert J Rizzi" <albert at myblindspot.org>
To: "'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog
Users'" <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
Subject: Re: [nagdu] going to church
Message-ID: <570E58A2FD7B47959288F10DED566B5D at JkTC4D1>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Julie,
I am not sure what other schools do, but at the GDF we have volunteers who
are available to take individuals to shops on the weekends as well as to
houses of worship. My parents did just that one night while I was on class
with the entire group I was with. Volunteers at any program are a valued
component to most any organizations success in local and national
communities.
Albert J. Rizzi, M.Ed.
Founder
My Blind Spot, Inc.
90 Broad Street - 18th Fl.
New York, New York 10004
www.myblindspot.org
PH: 917-553-0347
Fax: 212-858-5759
"The person who says it cannot be done, shouldn't interrupt the one who is
doing it."
Visit us on Facebook LinkedIn
-----Original Message-----
From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf
Of Julie J
Sent: Thursday, February 03, 2011 8:52 AM
To: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users
Subject: [nagdu] going to church
The topic of going to church while at guide dog school has fascinated me for
years. So today I'm just going to ask, how exactly does this work? I mean
is there one church that everyone goes to? Or do you get to pick which one
you want to attend? what if your religion isn't Christian, will they take
you to a Temple, Mosque or other place of worship, given that there is one
in the area? Also what if your day of worship isn't Sunday, are there
options for worship services on other days?
I'm asking out of sheer curiosity. I don't attend church myself.
Julie
_______________________________________________
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http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
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http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/albert%40myblindspot.
org
------------------------------
Message: 17
Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2011 09:11:48 -0500
From: "Tracy Carcione" <carcione at access.net>
To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
<nagdu at nfbnet.org>
Subject: Re: [nagdu] Going out during training
Message-ID: <04a2d0fd0a3ac93d3c334c677355a594.squirrel at mail.panix.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1
I distinctly remember going into a grocery store to buy a bottle of wine.
New dog and shelves full of bottles, oh yeah! But Ben did good.
Tracy
> That must have changed from when I was there. That was several years ago
> though. They sent someone to the store I think a couple times a week, and
> I
> don't ever remember having to go get my own stuff.
>
> Check out my groups: blindshoppers-subscribe at yahoogroups.com and
> blindrecipeexchange-subscribe at yahoogroups.com
> Email, Facebook and Windows Messenger: tlsyslo at yahoo.com
> twitter: tlsyslo
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf
> Of Margo and Arrow
> Sent: Thursday, February 03, 2011 7:27 AM
> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Going out during training
>
> during the last part of training, we were expected to get our own stuff
> from
>
> the stores. Oops, forgot to mention that I'm talking about The Seeing
> Eye.
> the first couple of weeks, though, the volunteers do the shopping and do a
> great job.
>
> I really don't have a preference about going off campus or not after
> training time. If it was a possibility, I'd do that; if not, okay. I
> want
> to concentrate on my new dog, getting to know the dog, etc. At the Seeing
> eye, if you go to church, the first time you go to church, the dog stays
> on
> campus. the subsequent time or times, the dog can go with you to church.
> an instructor takes you to church and picks you up from church.
>
> At least this is how I remember it.
>
> Margo and Arrow
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Tracy Carcione" <carcione at access.net>
> To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Thursday, February 03, 2011 8:14 AM
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Going out during training
>
>
>> You've got it, Rox! Except that the volunteers don't take you shopping;
>> they do it for you.
>> I must say, it is pretty nice to be able to only concentrate on the new
>> dog and our work together, and not have to deal with the everyday
>> business
>> of cooking and cleaning. Though I wouldn't say no to home training,
>> should
>> it ever be offered.
>> Tracy
>>
>>
>>> Wow, you know I'm starting to realize that a major down side to owner
>>> training is that guide dog schools sound like they are kinda cushy
>>> places in which to live for 3 or 4 weeks. Someone cooks for you,
>>> cleans for you, provides you books to read, and volunteers to take you
>>> shopping.
>>> The staff at my particular DIY guide dog program are lazy, don't cook
>>> regularly, clean less frequently, and there is nothing exciting to do
>>> in between training times unless it is the afore-mentioned cooking and
>>> cleaning.
>>> Maybe I've got it all wrong.
>>> LOL!
>>>
>>> Rox and the Botanical Barkers:
>>> Bristol (retired), Mill'E SD. and Laveau Guide Dog, CGC.
>>> "The only problem with troubleshooting is, sometimes, trouble shoots
>>> back."
>>> http://www.pawpowercreations.com
>>> pawpower4me at gmail.com
>>> AIM: Brissysgirl
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> nagdu mailing list
>>> nagdu at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> nagdu:
>>>
>
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/carcione%40access.net
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> nagdu mailing list
>> nagdu at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> nagdu:
>>
>
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> n.net
>
>
> _______________________________________________
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> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> nagdu:
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>
>
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> nagdu at nfbnet.org
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> nagdu:
>
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>
------------------------------
Message: 18
Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2011 08:31:28 -0600
From: Doug Parisian <eggmann at mts.net>
To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
<nagdu at nfbnet.org>
Subject: Re: [nagdu] UK: Blind woman left lying on the ground after
her guidedog was attacked
Message-ID: <BLU0-SMTP1579670426F8A8D76DDA4E7BCE70 at phx.gbl>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
reply-type=original
And the real question is: what is being done about this incident. Someone
must know where that low-life mental midget who obviously defiles German
Shepherds lives?
Doug: Simple tsk tsk tsk just don't cut it!
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ginger Kutsch" <gingerKutsch at yahoo.com>
To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
<nagdu at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Thursday, February 03, 2011 6:54 AM
Subject: [nagdu] UK: Blind woman left lying on the ground after her guidedog
was attacked
> Blind woman left lying on the ground after her guide dog was
> attacked by an Alsatian in Little Sutton
> Feb 2 2011
> by Selena O'Donnell, Ellesmere Port Pioneer, UK
> A BLIND woman was knocked to the ground trying to protect her
> guide dog in an unprovoked attack from an Alsatian.
>
> Joanne Roberts, of Armthorpe Drive, Little Sutton, has called for
> owners to keep their dogs on leads after her black Labrador
> retriever Uska was attacked.
>
> Mrs Roberts tried to fend off the dog but fell over and was
> outraged when the owner ran off without helping her.
>
> "The Alsatian was snarling and barking aggressively before
> jumping on the back of my Uska, who was on a harness."
>
> "I tried to kick the dog off the back of Uska but lost my balance
> and fell to the floor."
>
> The Alsatian finally let go of Uska and ran off to the other side
> of the road where his owner grabbed hold of him and retrieved the
> harness which he handed back.
>
> Joanne said: "I asked his name while I struggled on the floor but
> he just ran off, with his dog, and left me.
>
> "I was distraught about my dog, who was, by then, standing
> patiently by my side.
>
> "I tried to find any wounds and an anonymous lady, with a crutch,
> came over to help. She was lovely, if appalled at what she had
> just witnessed."
>
> Both Joanne and Uska escaped without serious injury but the
> incident has left them shaken.
>
> "It was like a member of my family being attacked, it's just so
> upsetting.
>
> "I don't blame the dog, I blame his owner..
>
> "He shouldn't have been off the lead in a park in the middle of a
> housing estate.
>
> "I want people to be aware that guide dogs get attacked
>
> Guide Dogs for the Blind Association campaign manager David
> Chowdrey said: "The result of these attacks can be personally
> devastating for the dog and the owner."
> Source:
> http://www.ellesmereportpioneer.co.uk/ellesmere-port-news/local-e
> llesmere-port-news/2011/02/02/blind-woman-left-lying-on-the-groun
> d-after-her-guide-dog-was-attacked-by-an-alsatian-in-little-sutto
> n-55940-28096084/
> _______________________________________________
> nagdu mailing list
> nagdu at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> nagdu:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/eggmann%40mts.net
>
------------------------------
Message: 19
Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2011 08:34:03 -0600
From: Doug Parisian <eggmann at mts.net>
To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
<nagdu at nfbnet.org>
Subject: Re: [nagdu] Going out during training
Message-ID: <BLU0-SMTP165AEE2206114A2D7EFA168BCE70 at phx.gbl>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
reply-type=original
Really, it isn't a matter of having to go get your own stuff but rather
another element of the training which obviously fulfills multiple purposes.
Doug: Money can't buy me love--wanna bet?
----- Original Message -----
From: "Terra Syslo" <tlsyslo at yahoo.com>
To: "'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users'"
<nagdu at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Thursday, February 03, 2011 7:37 AM
Subject: Re: [nagdu] Going out during training
> That must have changed from when I was there. That was several years ago
> though. They sent someone to the store I think a couple times a week, and
> I
> don't ever remember having to go get my own stuff.
>
> Check out my groups: blindshoppers-subscribe at yahoogroups.com and
> blindrecipeexchange-subscribe at yahoogroups.com
> Email, Facebook and Windows Messenger: tlsyslo at yahoo.com
> twitter: tlsyslo
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf
> Of Margo and Arrow
> Sent: Thursday, February 03, 2011 7:27 AM
> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Going out during training
>
> during the last part of training, we were expected to get our own stuff
> from
>
> the stores. Oops, forgot to mention that I'm talking about The Seeing
> Eye.
> the first couple of weeks, though, the volunteers do the shopping and do a
> great job.
>
> I really don't have a preference about going off campus or not after
> training time. If it was a possibility, I'd do that; if not, okay. I
> want
> to concentrate on my new dog, getting to know the dog, etc. At the Seeing
> eye, if you go to church, the first time you go to church, the dog stays
> on
> campus. the subsequent time or times, the dog can go with you to church.
> an instructor takes you to church and picks you up from church.
>
> At least this is how I remember it.
>
> Margo and Arrow
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Tracy Carcione" <carcione at access.net>
> To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Thursday, February 03, 2011 8:14 AM
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Going out during training
>
>
>> You've got it, Rox! Except that the volunteers don't take you shopping;
>> they do it for you.
>> I must say, it is pretty nice to be able to only concentrate on the new
>> dog and our work together, and not have to deal with the everyday
>> business
>> of cooking and cleaning. Though I wouldn't say no to home training,
>> should
>> it ever be offered.
>> Tracy
>>
>>
>>> Wow, you know I'm starting to realize that a major down side to owner
>>> training is that guide dog schools sound like they are kinda cushy
>>> places in which to live for 3 or 4 weeks. Someone cooks for you,
>>> cleans for you, provides you books to read, and volunteers to take you
>>> shopping.
>>> The staff at my particular DIY guide dog program are lazy, don't cook
>>> regularly, clean less frequently, and there is nothing exciting to do
>>> in between training times unless it is the afore-mentioned cooking and
>>> cleaning.
>>> Maybe I've got it all wrong.
>>> LOL!
>>>
>>> Rox and the Botanical Barkers:
>>> Bristol (retired), Mill'E SD. and Laveau Guide Dog, CGC.
>>> "The only problem with troubleshooting is, sometimes, trouble shoots
>>> back."
>>> http://www.pawpowercreations.com
>>> pawpower4me at gmail.com
>>> AIM: Brissysgirl
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> nagdu mailing list
>>> nagdu at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> nagdu:
>>>
>
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/carcione%40access.net
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> nagdu mailing list
>> nagdu at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> nagdu:
>>
>
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/margo.downey%40verizo
> n.net
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> nagdu mailing list
> nagdu at nfbnet.org
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> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> nagdu:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/tlsyslo%40yahoo.com
>
>
> _______________________________________________
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> nagdu at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> nagdu:
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>
------------------------------
Message: 20
Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2011 08:45:24 -0600
From: "Peggy" <pshald at neb.rr.com>
To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
<nagdu at nfbnet.org>
Subject: Re: [nagdu] Going out during training
Message-ID: <CEA7B811AE834C09B38FDC7DAFC35DC3 at PeggyPC>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
reply-type=response
Cooking, cleaning, shopping, probivind books, exercise equipment, computers,
everything is at your fingertips. It's really nice at first ... but after a
while I want to offer to scrub floors or wash dishes or something. The only
things I had to do was take care of the dog, go through training, and
laundry.
-----Original Message-----
From: The Pawpower Pack
Sent: Wednesday, February 02, 2011 7:49 PM
To: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users
Subject: Re: [nagdu] Going out during training
Wow, you know I'm starting to realize that a major down side to owner
training is that guide dog schools sound like they are kinda cushy
places in which to live for 3 or 4 weeks. Someone cooks for you,
cleans for you, provides you books to read, and volunteers to take you
shopping.
The staff at my particular DIY guide dog program are lazy, don't cook
regularly, clean less frequently, and there is nothing exciting to do
in between training times unless it is the afore-mentioned cooking and
cleaning.
Maybe I've got it all wrong.
LOL!
Rox and the Botanical Barkers:
Bristol (retired), Mill'E SD. and Laveau Guide Dog, CGC.
"The only problem with troubleshooting is, sometimes, trouble shoots
back."
http://www.pawpowercreations.com
pawpower4me at gmail.com
AIM: Brissysgirl
_______________________________________________
nagdu mailing list
nagdu at nfbnet.org
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------------------------------
Message: 21
Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2011 08:53:00 -0600
From: "Peggy" <pshald at neb.rr.com>
To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
<nagdu at nfbnet.org>
Subject: Re: [nagdu] Going out during training
Message-ID: <0915961A0B5D4E8C8DE98B559187F0FB at PeggyPC>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
reply-type=original
When I was at SE ... four years ago, they still did the shopping for you ...
you could go out during your trips and visit stores and pick things up but
they did all the shopping still when I was there then.
-----Original Message-----
From: Tracy Carcione
Sent: Thursday, February 03, 2011 8:11 AM
To: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users
Subject: Re: [nagdu] Going out during training
I distinctly remember going into a grocery store to buy a bottle of wine.
New dog and shelves full of bottles, oh yeah! But Ben did good.
Tracy
> That must have changed from when I was there. That was several years ago
> though. They sent someone to the store I think a couple times a week, and
> I
> don't ever remember having to go get my own stuff.
>
> Check out my groups: blindshoppers-subscribe at yahoogroups.com and
> blindrecipeexchange-subscribe at yahoogroups.com
> Email, Facebook and Windows Messenger: tlsyslo at yahoo.com
> twitter: tlsyslo
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf
> Of Margo and Arrow
> Sent: Thursday, February 03, 2011 7:27 AM
> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Going out during training
>
> during the last part of training, we were expected to get our own stuff
> from
>
> the stores. Oops, forgot to mention that I'm talking about The Seeing
> Eye.
> the first couple of weeks, though, the volunteers do the shopping and do a
> great job.
>
> I really don't have a preference about going off campus or not after
> training time. If it was a possibility, I'd do that; if not, okay. I
> want
> to concentrate on my new dog, getting to know the dog, etc. At the Seeing
> eye, if you go to church, the first time you go to church, the dog stays
> on
> campus. the subsequent time or times, the dog can go with you to church.
> an instructor takes you to church and picks you up from church.
>
> At least this is how I remember it.
>
> Margo and Arrow
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Tracy Carcione" <carcione at access.net>
> To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Thursday, February 03, 2011 8:14 AM
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Going out during training
>
>
>> You've got it, Rox! Except that the volunteers don't take you shopping;
>> they do it for you.
>> I must say, it is pretty nice to be able to only concentrate on the new
>> dog and our work together, and not have to deal with the everyday
>> business
>> of cooking and cleaning. Though I wouldn't say no to home training,
>> should
>> it ever be offered.
>> Tracy
>>
>>
>>> Wow, you know I'm starting to realize that a major down side to owner
>>> training is that guide dog schools sound like they are kinda cushy
>>> places in which to live for 3 or 4 weeks. Someone cooks for you,
>>> cleans for you, provides you books to read, and volunteers to take you
>>> shopping.
>>> The staff at my particular DIY guide dog program are lazy, don't cook
>>> regularly, clean less frequently, and there is nothing exciting to do
>>> in between training times unless it is the afore-mentioned cooking and
>>> cleaning.
>>> Maybe I've got it all wrong.
>>> LOL!
>>>
>>> Rox and the Botanical Barkers:
>>> Bristol (retired), Mill'E SD. and Laveau Guide Dog, CGC.
>>> "The only problem with troubleshooting is, sometimes, trouble shoots
>>> back."
>>> http://www.pawpowercreations.com
>>> pawpower4me at gmail.com
>>> AIM: Brissysgirl
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
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>>
>>
>>
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------------------------------
Message: 22
Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2011 09:05:09 -0600
From: "Peter Donahue" <pdonahue2 at satx.rr.com>
To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
<nagdu at nfbnet.org>
Subject: Re: [nagdu] Going out during training
Message-ID: <002501cbc3b3$c0284ce0$82070b43 at yourfsyly0jtwn>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Hello Doug and everyone,
Then I guess it would be their responsibility to cover such expenses now
wouldn't it?
Peter Donahue
----- Original Message -----
From: "Doug Parisian" <eggmann at mts.net>
To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
<nagdu at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Wednesday, February 02, 2011 8:50 PM
Subject: Re: [nagdu] Going out during training
Peter, I'd rather spend resources on improved training techniques and
general dog research than to provide taxi service to folks too impoverished
to keep themselves happily busy. At TSE, in addition to some very
fascinating people, there are numerous computers and other adaptive
technologies, stereos, TVs, exercise equipment, and above all, your dog
which is the reason I enjoy TSE despite whatever issues I have raised.
I do think that allowing suitable teamns "work alone" time might be a
motivator for those who need a little push in the form of good old healthy
competition. And, let's not overlook the learning of responsibilities as
well as rights insofar as working with a dog guide is concerned
Doug: happy to be at the right end of the tail..
----- Original Message -----
From: "Peter Donahue" <pdonahue2 at satx.rr.com>
To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
<nagdu at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Wednesday, February 02, 2011 8:33 PM
Subject: Re: [nagdu] Going out during training
> Hello Doug and everyone,
>
> There are also taxis, vanpools and other means to over-come transportation
> difficulties resulting from the remote locations of training campuses. For
> that matter if a group of students wanted to go shopping at a local mall,
> or
> visit a near-by attraction the school could drop them off and pick them up
> at an agreed upon time. This is only a problem if made to be one.
>
> Peter Donahue
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Doug Parisian" <eggmann at mts.net>
> To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Wednesday, February 02, 2011 7:06 PM
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Going out during training
>
>
> Not quite the jackpot yet. First, for those who are in doubt, believe me
> that, despite that really old TV show "My Mother The Car," vehicles are
> not
> living creatures. But hey, maybe I'm wrong; after all, don't vegetables
> feel pain when they're pealed?
>
> One thing I know for sure is that, with the location of Seeing eye, it
> would
> be a long treturous walk to Morristown. In places where some access to
> off-campus entertainment is possible, then I do believe that the decision
> should be a joint effort between school and the individual. I probably
> could have gone out on the town safely and securely towards the middle of
> the second week with my second and third dogs. Numbers 4th and 5th dogs,
> probably at the beginning of the third week.
>
> Unless things have changed, I find the wait from Saturday until Tuesday
> before we meet our dogs a gigantic waste of time during which period we
> weren't even allowed to use our canes (or whatever) in the various spaces
> available for walking. Even when us good little boys and girls are
> bestowed
> the luxury of the leisure path, we're all expected to walk around in the
> same direction.
>
> Hey, I've already signed an agreement not holding the school responsible
> should (fat chance) anything of an injurious nature should happen to me
> during my 3 week holiday at the school
>
> Doug: Nobody's slave, and nobody's master..
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Steven Johnson" <blinddog3 at charter.net>
> To: "'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users'"
> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Wednesday, February 02, 2011 6:24 PM
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Going out during training
>
>
>> Jackpot!
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>> Behalf
>> Of Lisa belville
>> Sent: Wednesday, February 02, 2011 2:43 PM
>> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Going out during training
>>
>> Peter, I must be missing something, because I fail to see how these
>> policies
>> are custodial. Have you talked to sighted people who have gone through
>> the
>> various versions of military boot camps? They have rules in place, and
>> God
>> help you if you break one of them. But you don't hear them whining about
>> how the rules are custodial or paternalistic. Most of them have joined
>> whatever branch of service by choice and want to progress through their
>> training. They either go with the program or they leave. The purpose of
>> this example is to illustrate that policies need to be in place in order
>> to
>> achieve a specific goal in a set time frame.
>>
>> People don't work with their green dogs off campus because they know
>> little
>> about how that dog
>> reacts to certain situations. Why would any person who is serious about
>> working with that new dog want to jeopardize the future of their team by
>> possibly getting into a situation they cannot handle due to this
>> information. Consider also that many people getting guide dogs have
>> never
>> had a dog before,
>> even as a pet. Why should that innocent dog be subject to someone's
>> inability to
>> properly work with it based on their inexperience with a dog? Can you
>> imagine how the public would react to this? They already cry abuse when
>> they see us give a leash correction even if it's necessary.
>>
>> To revisit my military analogy, they don't just give people guns and the
>> keys to a tank and let them play war games during basic training for the
>> same types of reasons.
>>
>> Those of us in training for our successor dogs can also have issues
>> learning
>>
>> their dog's personality quirks. I didn't know how to read the body
>> language
>>
>> of either of my dogs for the first week at least. Having someone there
>> to
>> give instant feedback about what I was feeling through the harness and
>> leash
>>
>> was immensely helpful. so was the support and socialization I got from
>> others in the class with me. Nights were spent learning how to groom,
>> pill,
>>
>> and entertain my dog. I personally didn't have the energy to go off
>> campus
>> to do anything else. The thought that I needed to assert myself as a
>> blind
>> person because I was being oppressed didn't really occur to me because I
>> knew that this period of training would last for only a specific time
>> period, and when it was over, I would be on my own with the dog, so I'd
>> better concentrate on working and learning how we worked. I did leave on
>> the weekends, but was responsible enough to return in time to feed and
>> relieve my dog. Frankly, it was a much needed break for me and the dog.
>> I
>> didn't feel oppressed, but then, I'm not always looking for a reason to
>> feel
>>
>> oppressed or discriminated against. I suppose someone with this
>> mentality
>> can find discrimination and opposition every place if they do nothing
>> else
>> but look for it.
>>
>> Maybe it's not like this for you, but I'd bet that for 99.9% of us
>> training
>> guide dogs and working with them as the end user is incredibly time
>> consuming for all involved. Every component of the highly condensed
>> training is useful for forming a bond that will hopefully lead to the
>> formation of a safe and successful team.
>>
>> If we used your philosophy, people would just pick up a dog and come and
>> go
>> at random, not showing up for training classes or lectures. this is a
>> recipe for failure. I'm not a dog trainer. I could never do the owner
>> trainer thing like Julie and Tami have. That's why I go to a school. I
>> don't want to get into the nitty gritty details of training because there
>> are more facets to me than being a person who happens to be blind and who
>> happens to prefer the use of a big black dog over the long, white cane.
>>
>> I might take your stance a bit more seriously if you managed to convince
>> the
>>
>> leaders at NFB centers to allow dogs in every aspect of their training
>> and
>> not only during certain areas or training classes.
>>
>> This is a policy I find offensive and paternalistic because it implies
>> that
>> I, as a dog user, am obviously not adjusted to my blindness, i.e.,
>> inferior
>> and in need of training simply because I use a dog. I don't measure up,
>> I'm
>>
>> not the perfect model blind person and I obviously need mommy and daddy
>> NFB
>> to show me the error of my ways.
>>
>> This attitude is just as repulsive, more, in fact, than having some
>> sighted
>> person tell me I'm a poor blind person who will never amount to anything.
>> The NFB's so-called philosophy has done nothing but divide and alienate
>> those of us it is supposedly in place to help.
>>
>> In my opinion, you and those who feel as you do would be better off
>> spending
>>
>> your time getting your organization to see dog use as equal to the use of
>> the long white cane. Why should guide dog schools take you seriously if
>> you
>>
>> can't even get your own organization to treat you like the equals you
>> insist
>>
>> you are?
>>
>> And don't tell me to remember Daytona or to go to a national convention.
>> I've been to national conventions and have served on local chapters, so
>> I've
>>
>> seen things first hand and I've spent time trying to change it. As long
>> as
>> people like you can justify discrimination within your own organization
>> and
>> bully those of us who dare to think differently, nothing will change.
>>
>> Lisa
>>
>> The handle on my recliner apparently doesn't qualify as an exercise
>> machine...who knew ?
>> Lisa Belville
>> missktlab1217 at frontier.com
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Peter Donahue" <pdonahue2 at satx.rr.com>
>> To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Wednesday, February 02, 2011 1:19 PM
>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Going out during training
>>
>>
>>> Hello Gary and everyone,
>>>
>>> And there in lies the problem. I thought we attended guide dog
>>> training
>>> programs to learn to be top-notch guide dog handlers whether with an
>>> instructor or out alone with the dog. Students attending our centers are
>>> expected to use their canes whenever they travel be it on their own,
>>> with
>>> another student, or with a cane travel instructor. It should be the same
>>> when one attends a guide dog program. Such low expectations and
>>> custodial
>>> policies would never be tolerated at an NFB-run facility. If you
>>> continue
>>> to
>>> lap up the excuses put four the by guide dog programs concerning
>>> unaccompanied travel with a dog prior to graduation remember Daytona.
>>>
>>> Peter Donahue
>>>
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "GARY STEEVES" <rainshadowmusic at shaw.ca>
>>> To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>> Sent: Wednesday, February 02, 2011 11:07 AM
>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Going out during training
>>>
>>>
>>> Hi:
>>>
>>> Yes, at my school they allowed people to go out for short periods of
>>> time
>>> in
>>> the evening. All the girls in my class were under 18 so generally they
>>> were
>>> accompanied by a staff member but this got more lax as the program went
>>> on.
>>> No one was allowed to leave the school property with the dog until after
>>> they graduated without being accompanied by a trainer mainly for
>>> liability
>>> and safety reasons as others have stated.
>>>
>>> Like others had mentioned, I was there to get a guide dog and do what
>>> was
>>> required to begin the building of a strong team. So, although there was
>>> a
>>> jam session I wanted to attend shortly after I got Bogart I did not do
>>> this
>>> since I knew it would not help us move forward. However after about ten
>>> days
>>> I felt, and the trainers agreed, that it would be okay to leave Bogart
>>> for
>>> some periods of time. I don't think the school was ever trying to take
>>> away
>>> my freedom but they wanted to be sure, especially with poodles, that we
>>> developed a strong bond before we left and we demonstrated our ability
>>> to
>>> be
>>> responsible in intregrating the dogs into our lifes.
>>>
>>> Gary
>>>
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: Cindy Ray <cindyray at gmail.com>
>>> Date: Tuesday, February 1, 2011 4:35 pm
>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Going out during training
>>> To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>>
>>>> Peter, I must respectfully say that what you are saying isn't
>>>> the point. Yes, maybe the schools can let you go out some
>>>> sooner, but the issue isn't really about the people so much as
>>>> the dogs. The dogs are a little unnerved by the new experience
>>>> they are having; the trust isn't there; should you really be
>>>> able to go out with that dog right off because you are a
>>>> competent adult? There are liability issues, too, and
>>>> everyone there isn't as prepared to go off campus. This creates
>>>> sort of a class system in my opinion. And, as Janine pointed
>>>> out, at some of the schools there are logistic issues for this.
>>>>
>>>> Cindy
>>>>
>>>> On Feb 1, 2011, at 5:17 PM, Peter Donahue wrote:
>>>>
>>>> > Hello again everyone,
>>>> >
>>>> > What I'm hearing is, "Your expectations are
>>>> too high. Lower them because
>>>> > blind people are too stupid to handle new dogs in unfamiliar
>>>> environments.
>>>> > After all they're too helpless and can't be trusted to travel
>>>> alone with new
>>>> > dogs in strange situations. Such is beyond their capabilities.
>>>> We need to
>>>> > guide them every step of the way."
>>>> >
>>>> > People we just staged a demonstration last
>>>> Saturday of what is possible
>>>> > when a belief in the abilities and capabilities of the blind
>>>> is shared by
>>>> > all. Driving that Ford Escape in a public venue such as the
>>>> Daytona
>>>> > International Speedway was a monumental achievement. Things
>>>> could have gone
>>>> > horribly wrong but they didn't. Mark Riccobono successfully
>>>> navigated the
>>>> > track and by doing so shattered many misconceptions concerning
>>>> the blind. If
>>>> > he had people holding him back as is happening among our guide
>>>> dog users he
>>>> > never would have had that chance to prove what can be
>>>> accomplished when the
>>>> > blind have access to information. It would have been a
>>>> tremendous loss for
>>>> > us all. How sad. He never drove that car on the Daytona Track
>>>> until last
>>>> > Saturday yet he performed a flawless demonstration in front of
>>>> thousands of
>>>> > people.
>>>> >
>>>> > I find it disgusting that we can shine our
>>>> lights for Mark's achievement
>>>> > yet we have lowered expectations when it comes to guide dog
>>>> training. If
>>>> > Mark could drive that car in an unfamiliar environment those
>>>> in guide dog
>>>> > training that choose to do so should have the opportunities to
>>>> work their
>>>> > dogs during off-hours. As I stated previously the rule should
>>>> be if a team
>>>> > can't complete x amount of hours of unaccompanied travel
>>>> during their
>>>> > training the blind person shouldn't be sent home with a dog.
>>>> >
>>>> > Finally I'm hearing some of this rubbish
>>>> from people that on occasions
>>>> > criticized the NFB for not doing enough to help guide dog
>>>> users. How can we
>>>> > do more if the organization's hands are tied by those
>>>> unwilling to allow the
>>>> > imagination juices to flow rather than buying in to the voodoo
>>>> dished out by
>>>> > our guide dog programs. I'd suggest that the next time someone
>>>> suggests a
>>>> > possible remedy to address and solve guide dog-related issues
>>>> be they with
>>>> > training, access issues, etc remember what happened in Daytona
>>>> last
>>>> > Saturday.
>>>> >
>>>> > Peter Donahue
>>>> >
>>>> > ----- Original Message -----
>>>> > From: "GARY STEEVES" <rainshadowmusic at shaw.ca>
>>>> > To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog
>>>> Users"
>>>> > <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>>> > Sent: Tuesday, February 01, 2011 1:50 PM
>>>> > Subject: Re: [nagdu] Going out during training
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> > Hi Tracy:
>>>> >
>>>> > I agree with you. During my class I started off slowly leaving
>>>> Bogart alone
>>>> > in the room and would see how he reacted. I sort of broke the
>>>> rules first by
>>>> > showing up at the end of day meeting without Bogart. My room
>>>> was right
>>>> > across from the meeting room so I could hear what he was
>>>> doing. I live in an
>>>> > apartment so it was crucial that I could have confidence in
>>>> him that he
>>>> > wouldn't bark if I left him home alone. I think my instructors
>>>> trusted me
>>>> > and how I worked with Bogart so I think they got what I was
>>>> trying to do.
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> > Once he was pretty good I did nip down to the bar for a beer
>>>> or two but he
>>>> > was never lefr alone for more than 4 hours.
>>>> >
>>>> > The othergirls in the class were all under 18 and they were
>>>> interested in
>>>> > checking out boys at the local coffee shop. It was
>>>> actually Bogart's
>>>> > brother, Byran, who did all the barking which did worry me a
>>>> bit with
>>>> > regards to Bogart but so far he seems very good in this regard.
>>>> >
>>>> > I don't think the girls should have been sent home but I think
>>>> that if the
>>>> > dog wasn't doing good being left alone then they should have
>>>> had to work at
>>>> > it to build up the dogs trust that you'd come back.
>>>> >
>>>> > Gary
>>>> >
>>>> > ----- Original Message -----
>>>> > From: Tracy Carcione <carcione at access.net>
>>>> > Date: Tuesday, February 1, 2011 11:23 am
>>>> > Subject: [nagdu] Going out during training
>>>> > To: nagdu at nfbnet.org
>>>> >
>>>> >> I don't think that going out with a brand-new dog, in an
>>>> >> unfamiliar area,
>>>> >> during class is a good idea, certainly not in the first couple
>>>> >> weeks. It
>>>> >> takes a while for the dog and person to adjust to each other,
>>>> >> and, until
>>>> >> that happens, the guiding/following may not be all it should be.
>>>> >> As to going out without the dog, I wonder what people think
>>>> >> should happen
>>>> >> in the following:
>>>> >> I was rather shocked by an episode Gary related about his
>>>> >> class. People
>>>> >> were free to go out after the training day, and it sounded like
>>>> >> one woman
>>>> >> was making a habit of taking off, leaving her dog in the room,
>>>> >> where it
>>>> >> started barking its head off, and other people repeatedly had to
>>>> >> go and
>>>> >> deal with the problem.
>>>> >> If people are free to go out, and their dog causes a problem
>>>> in their
>>>> >> absence, I think it would be reasonable to give them a warning,
>>>> >> and, if it
>>>> >> happens again, send them home. After all, they're in class
>>>> >> to learn how
>>>> >> to handle a dog, and if bar-hopping is more important...out
>>>> they go!
>>>> >>
>>>> >> It did sound nice in Gary's class, to be able to nip down to the
>>>> >> cornerand have a brewski. But TSE is too far out in the
>>>> >> country for that. GDB
>>>> >> too, for that matter.
>>>> >> Tracy
>>>> >>
>>>> >>
>>>> >>
>>>> >>
>>>> >> _______________________________________________
>>>> >> nagdu mailing list
>>>> >> nagdu at nfbnet.org
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>>>> >> info for nagdu:
>>>> >>
>>>>
>>
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>> w.ca>>
>>>> >
>>>> > _______________________________________________
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>> om
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> > _______________________________________________
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>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
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------------------------------
Message: 23
Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2011 15:05:34 +0000
From: "PICKRELL, REBECCA M (TASC)" <REBECCA.PICKRELL at tasc.com>
To: "'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog
Users'" <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
Subject: Re: [nagdu] going to church
Message-ID: <525A75DDF9A4104BAEDC1B3ACED1579C143669A3 at TSEAMB02>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
I'd be interested to hear from an Orthodox Jewish rabi on this. I understand
that given certain times and situations things can be changed as the first
duty is to preserve life and health. So, you can't work on the Sabbath but
you must preserve life and health so if you have an infant you must change
diapers. You must feed your family though you can't cook. I wonder what a
rabi would say about the time spent in class and if a school would make it
so a student could do whatever was typically done on Sat on Sunday?
Interesting topic.
-----Original Message-----
From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf
Of Albert J Rizzi
Sent: Thursday, February 03, 2011 9:10 AM
To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
Subject: Re: [nagdu] going to church
Julie,
I am not sure what other schools do, but at the GDF we have volunteers who
are available to take individuals to shops on the weekends as well as to
houses of worship. My parents did just that one night while I was on class
with the entire group I was with. Volunteers at any program are a valued
component to most any organizations success in local and national
communities.
Albert J. Rizzi, M.Ed.
Founder
My Blind Spot, Inc.
90 Broad Street - 18th Fl.
New York, New York 10004
www.myblindspot.org
PH: 917-553-0347
Fax: 212-858-5759
"The person who says it cannot be done, shouldn't interrupt the one who is
doing it."
Visit us on Facebook LinkedIn
-----Original Message-----
From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf
Of Julie J
Sent: Thursday, February 03, 2011 8:52 AM
To: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users
Subject: [nagdu] going to church
The topic of going to church while at guide dog school has fascinated me for
years. So today I'm just going to ask, how exactly does this work? I mean
is there one church that everyone goes to? Or do you get to pick which one
you want to attend? what if your religion isn't Christian, will they take
you to a Temple, Mosque or other place of worship, given that there is one
in the area? Also what if your day of worship isn't Sunday, are there
options for worship services on other days?
I'm asking out of sheer curiosity. I don't attend church myself.
Julie
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------------------------------
Message: 24
Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2011 09:21:07 -0600
From: "Peter Donahue" <pdonahue2 at satx.rr.com>
To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
<nagdu at nfbnet.org>
Subject: Re: [nagdu] going to church
Message-ID: <005401cbc3b5$fb6e5540$82070b43 at yourfsyly0jtwn>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Hello Julie and everyone,
When I received my first dog Nash from GEB in 1975 a couple took me to
their congregational church during my last weekend of training. They picked
me up from the school and brought me back when the church service was over.
That previous evening I spent several hours visiting my aunt and cousin at
their home in York Town Heights. They also took me to a local shopping mall
where I bought some things and we ate dinner. On both outings Nash went with
me and we weren't accompanied by any school staff. It was a wonderful
experience.
Peter Donahue
----- Original Message -----
From: "Julie J" <julielj at neb.rr.com>
To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
<nagdu at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Thursday, February 03, 2011 7:51 AM
Subject: [nagdu] going to church
The topic of going to church while at guide dog school has fascinated me for
years. So today I'm just going to ask, how exactly does this work? I mean
is there one church that everyone goes to? Or do you get to pick which one
you want to attend? what if your religion isn't Christian, will they take
you to a Temple, Mosque or other place of worship, given that there is one
in the area? Also what if your day of worship isn't Sunday, are there
options for worship services on other days?
I'm asking out of sheer curiosity. I don't attend church myself.
Julie
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------------------------------
Message: 25
Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2011 07:22:06 -0800
From: "Nicole B. Torcolini at Home" <ntorcolini at wavecable.com>
To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
<nagdu at nfbnet.org>
Subject: Re: [nagdu] The Seeing Eye & Ownership
Message-ID: <FB373A64713E4A30817D936633857E89 at stanford.edu>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
reply-type=response
Well said. My pup is also from GDB, and I agree 100%. And, your right, the
ownership problem and the follow up services should not be related.
Nicole and Lexia (who was born in California, trained in Oregon)
----- Original Message -----
From: "Sandra e. Finley" <finleyknits at gmail.com>
To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
<nagdu at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Thursday, February 03, 2011 4:02 AM
Subject: Re: [nagdu] The Seeing Eye & Ownership
>I kind of like GDB's policy that I don't own the dog immediately upon
>graduation but am free to apply for ownership; I forget if it is after one
>or two years. Through no fault of mine or theirs I had difficulty with one
> dog within the first year after she was issued and she had to be returned
> and retired. At the time I somehow felt good that I did not own her. I
> truly believe this is all psychological whether we own the dog or not.
> Repputable organizations are going to provide appropriate follow up
> regardless of ownership. In 37 years of guide dog use I have never worried
> that either of the two schools i have used would come and take back my
> seasoned, working guide. Why would they? I recently had a major vet bill
> to
> save my dog's life and GDB was most responsive, helping us with the parts
> we
> felt we could not afford. I don't think that TSE or GDB or any of the
> other
> reputable organizations base a decision of follow up, payment of vet bills
> or
> retirement on who owns the dog. I say, isn't it good we have
> organizations with difffering policies? It Gives us some choice.
>
> Sandy
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Marion Gwizdala" <blind411 at verizon.net>
> To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Tuesday, February 01, 2011 6:11 AM
> Subject: [nagdu] The Seeing Eye & Ownership
>
>
>> Dear All,
>> Let me begin by saying I am not a seeing Eye consumer. It is my
>> opinion
>> that The Seeing Eye has it right, as it relates to ownership. In short,
>> TSE believes that the dog belongs to the consumer and it is the
>> consumer's
>> right to make all decisions as it pertains to the dog. This includes both
>> early and end-of-work retirement,even after the consumer makes the
>> difficult choice to surrender the dog, as illustrated by Peggy's
>> experience.
>> One untruth Mr. Russman stated during our telephone conversation, when
>> I asserted that TSE grants full ownership upon completion of training,
>> was
>> that TSE does not offer any sort of follow-up. I told him I knew too many
>> TSE consumers and that he was absolutely wrong. Then he qualified his
>> statement by saying something like, "Well, not to the level of Fidelco!"
>> If, by that he means the type of follow-up in which they call and say, "I
>> am five minutes from your house and I am coming over to see your dog!",
>> he
>> is right! I feel no guide dog program should impose themselves upon their
>> consumers. Such tactics are very intimidating and paternalistic!
>>
>> Fraternally yours,
>> Marion Gwizdala
>>
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Peggy" <pshald at neb.rr.com>
>> To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Monday, January 31, 2011 11:38 PM
>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Guide Dog Handler Bill of Rights
>>
>>
>>> With Se, once you leave the school with that dog it's yours to do what
>>> you wish with, hopefully work it. But when it retires, no matter when
>>> that is, you can choose to keep him/her or give him/her to a friend or
>>> family, or send him/her back to SE. When I gave up my first dog, a
>>> yellow lab, that was having some definate anxiety issues, I had only
>>> worked her for a year and a half ... I could have kept her, given her to
>>> someone ... what I chose to do was send her back to SE to see if they
>>> could work with her and maybe she could continue guide dog work. She
>>> did
>>> retire and they notified me that she could not be retrained and even
>>> asked if I wanted her back as a pet. Just thought I'd share because I
>>> saw
>>> at the end of the post you said you weren't sure if after a short time
>>> they'd still let you keep the dog ... at least I thought that's what you
>>> meant.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: Cindy Ray
>>> Sent: Sunday, January 30, 2011 4:00 PM
>>> To: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Guide Dog Handler Bill of Rights
>>>
>>> If you get a dog at TSE and within the first year you find that the dog
>>> is not working out for you, they will replace it and apply the fee to
>>> the
>>> next dog and call it an adjustment. In such a case, it would be only
>>> right for you to return the dog to them. Jordan's is the only story I
>>> have ever heard of a repossession, and I suspect there is more to the
>>> story that we don't know and probably don't have a right to know, but it
>>> seems like aserioius allegation given that this is not their policy and
>>> the dog is yours upon leaving the school. To say they don't care is
>>> really what you perceive, many of the rest of us do not see that. When I
>>> hae not been able to continue with a dog (and I two such within a year's
>>> period that had to return) I would never have found the dog a home but,
>>> rather, would hve wanted to return it there for their evaluation. The
>>> two
>>> with which I experienced it were retired, far as I know, and the one I
>>> had for two years and returned, I did because I thought he might be a
>>> better fit for someone else. I think I could have given him away if I
>>> had
>>> wanted to. Never tested out this theory.
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Friends are like a snow flake.
>>> If you pee on them they go away
>>>
>>>
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>>
>>
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------------------------------
Message: 26
Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2011 09:45:11 -0600
From: "Peter Donahue" <pdonahue2 at satx.rr.com>
To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
<nagdu at nfbnet.org>
Subject: Re: [nagdu] Going out during training
Message-ID: <00a801cbc3b9$57dedae0$82070b43 at yourfsyly0jtwn>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Hello again everyone,
When I received Tim it was the same way. Someone picked up items during
the early part of training but you were given opportunities to shop for
yourself later on. I think I had Drew Gibbon wondering if I was going to buy
out the local grocery store in Morristown as I picked up many items we can't
get here in Texas.
When I was trained with Johnny in 2007 I went grocery shopping with him
the same day he arrived. Jonathan Shrower had me work him to help him settle
down after his long flight from Morristown. I kept the loads small so I
could focus on working Johnny when we shopped during our first week of
training. During that weekend we did our big shopping. It was this trip that
was the best as we went on our own. It felt good to be able to make this
trip on our own as Jonathan went back to Austin for the weekend. He
encouraged me to work Johnny on my own over the weekend and I obliged. I
felt more relaxed when we could travel on our own than when he was with us
and it showed! We've been a working team for four years now. I credit some
of our success to having had an opportunity to work him on my own
unaccompanied prior to completing our training.
Peter Donahue
----- Original Message -----
From: "Terra Syslo" <tlsyslo at yahoo.com>
To: "'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users'"
<nagdu at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Thursday, February 03, 2011 7:37 AM
Subject: Re: [nagdu] Going out during training
That must have changed from when I was there. That was several years ago
though. They sent someone to the store I think a couple times a week, and I
don't ever remember having to go get my own stuff.
Check out my groups: blindshoppers-subscribe at yahoogroups.com and
blindrecipeexchange-subscribe at yahoogroups.com
Email, Facebook and Windows Messenger: tlsyslo at yahoo.com
twitter: tlsyslo
-----Original Message-----
From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf
Of Margo and Arrow
Sent: Thursday, February 03, 2011 7:27 AM
To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
Subject: Re: [nagdu] Going out during training
during the last part of training, we were expected to get our own stuff from
the stores. Oops, forgot to mention that I'm talking about The Seeing Eye.
the first couple of weeks, though, the volunteers do the shopping and do a
great job.
I really don't have a preference about going off campus or not after
training time. If it was a possibility, I'd do that; if not, okay. I want
to concentrate on my new dog, getting to know the dog, etc. At the Seeing
eye, if you go to church, the first time you go to church, the dog stays on
campus. the subsequent time or times, the dog can go with you to church.
an instructor takes you to church and picks you up from church.
At least this is how I remember it.
Margo and Arrow
----- Original Message -----
From: "Tracy Carcione" <carcione at access.net>
To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
<nagdu at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Thursday, February 03, 2011 8:14 AM
Subject: Re: [nagdu] Going out during training
> You've got it, Rox! Except that the volunteers don't take you shopping;
> they do it for you.
> I must say, it is pretty nice to be able to only concentrate on the new
> dog and our work together, and not have to deal with the everyday business
> of cooking and cleaning. Though I wouldn't say no to home training, should
> it ever be offered.
> Tracy
>
>
>> Wow, you know I'm starting to realize that a major down side to owner
>> training is that guide dog schools sound like they are kinda cushy
>> places in which to live for 3 or 4 weeks. Someone cooks for you,
>> cleans for you, provides you books to read, and volunteers to take you
>> shopping.
>> The staff at my particular DIY guide dog program are lazy, don't cook
>> regularly, clean less frequently, and there is nothing exciting to do
>> in between training times unless it is the afore-mentioned cooking and
>> cleaning.
>> Maybe I've got it all wrong.
>> LOL!
>>
>> Rox and the Botanical Barkers:
>> Bristol (retired), Mill'E SD. and Laveau Guide Dog, CGC.
>> "The only problem with troubleshooting is, sometimes, trouble shoots
>> back."
>> http://www.pawpowercreations.com
>> pawpower4me at gmail.com
>> AIM: Brissysgirl
>>
>> _______________________________________________
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>
>
>
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------------------------------
Message: 27
Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2011 08:03:07 -0800
From: Jessica Pitzer <rolosgirl at gmail.com>
Subject: [nagdu] question for those who have had children
Message-ID:
<AANLkTi=Qf3sH=59ZEGVSmqh2WdBOji+Hx5-3aN=cydDM at mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
So, my fiancee and I are going to hopefully be starting a family soon,
and I've been wondering something.
How do you handle the dog when its time to go to the hospital to give
birth, obviously you can't do much with it, as your in bed, and I'd
think it impractical to leave it home if everyone is at the hospital
with you.
Thoughts?
Jessica and Kip
------------------------------
Message: 28
Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2011 10:04:12 -0600
From: "Bryan Brown" <bryanbrown at solarus.biz>
To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
<nagdu at nfbnet.org>
Subject: [nagdu] FIDELCO ownership rights and other things.
Message-ID: <1D7937FBE3694161BA2800A7B6AF633A at owner2987cd11a>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
reply-type=original
Hi all,
The day after Marion posted the message about the woman who had
their dog
repossessed by FIDELCO for no reason... I received a call from a FIDELCO
trainer. She was
calling to find out if she could meet with me for a follow up visit. I
scheduled a time to meet with her on the seventeenth of February, since I am
not in what you might say is FIDELCO's traditional service area this will be
the first follow up visit that I have had. They have offered, but I haven't
had any
problems that I thought needed a trainers help with so I declined. Any time
I have ever had an issue or question I just call out to FIDELCO and I get
put right through to someone who can help. I've never had to request follow
up, I guess I've been lucky and not had any issues as a working team
that I couldn't deal with myself. I'd be comfortable if FIDELCO called and
said hey we're five minutes from your house and we want to see your dog.
That would be great, I don't have any reasons to be anything other than
proud of my dog. They were however nice enough to give me more than two
weeks notice and make sure that it worked with my schedule. I'm far from
intimidated, in fact I'm
excited, I know that I have nothing to worry about, my dog is healthy, he is
in great shape , we are a great working team and I'll be proud to show
off our teamwork to someone who knows how much it takes to develop that type
of relationship with a dog. My only concern is that the trainer might not be
able to stick around and have dinner with myself and my family.
It's unfortunate that anyone would ever have their dog unjustly removed from
them and I'm not sure how that would benefit the program, imagine the
implications if a person could prove those allegations, for instance in
front of a jury? Why aren't the people who have supposedly had their dogs
removed
making a public show of such an unjust action? I know if that happened to me
I'd be the first to call the sheriff, my vet, my attorney and the media,
I'd make a
huge stink of it, but I am confident that I have done nothing to bring such
action on myself. , maybe the parties in question are not quite so
confident? Is it possible that the inflammatory comments that Marion has
made about FIDELCO and Mr. Russman are rooted in limited information and Mr.
Russman's reservations to bow down to the big bad NFB?
as far as I know... I own Tarik, do I think I have that right, "yes" at this
point after five years it would be cruel to remove him from me, I am as much
his life as he is mine. Do I think I deserved to own him upon graduation, my
answer is no. I feel as though having a dog is a wonderful privilege in the
case of a FIDELCO dog it's a 45,000 dollar privilege and I am the
custodian of that privilege. It is my responsibility to hold up my end of
the bargain. I knew what it was when I got the dog and I was confident in my
ability to hold up my end of the bargain throughout his working life. That's
why I signed my name on the line.
I think making negative comments about any given program in a public forum
without first hand experience is wrong and only serves to tarnish the
program. If people have complaints so be it, but unless the complaints are
coming directly from the people making them, the information has probably
been spun and is most certainly one sided.
I'm not sure why anyone sees fit to vilify any guide dog program. all the
people that work so hard to provide us with these wonderful animals aren't
doing it for the money. I'm fairly sure that the puppy raisers aren't
pulling down huge salaries, and that the trainers surely aren't earning six
figures, I see that they are doing it because they are genuinely good
people, and that they either have a passion for helping, or dogs, or both!
Why is it that I see such a militant attitude with so much of the NFB? I
know it's a strong advocacy group, but I personally don't want to be
advocated for by a group that comes across so negatively. We've become a
society of victims, everything is always somebody else's fault and there is
always someone out to get you, I see it in strangers and people I know and
love. People have to start standing up for themselves again and taking
responsibility for their own actions.
Bryan
-----
------------------------------
Message: 29
Date: Thu, 03 Feb 2011 11:19:07 -0500
From: "Margo and Arrow" <margo.downey at verizon.net>
To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
<nagdu at nfbnet.org>
Subject: Re: [nagdu] going to church
Message-ID: <BDF1339CCBE74DFE9520FE11BEEBB653 at meandmyarrow>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=iso-8859-1;
reply-type=original
You choose your place of worship and if there is a place of worship exactly
or similar to what you're looking for within a reasonable distance, even in
another town, they'll get you there.
this is for the Seeing Eye.
Margo and Arrow
----- Original Message -----
From: "Julie J" <julielj at neb.rr.com>
To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
<nagdu at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Thursday, February 03, 2011 8:51 AM
Subject: [nagdu] going to church
> The topic of going to church while at guide dog school has fascinated me
> for years. So today I'm just going to ask, how exactly does this work? I
> mean is there one church that everyone goes to? Or do you get to pick
> which one you want to attend? what if your religion isn't Christian, will
> they take you to a Temple, Mosque or other place of worship, given that
> there is one in the area? Also what if your day of worship isn't Sunday,
> are there options for worship services on other days?
>
> I'm asking out of sheer curiosity. I don't attend church myself.
>
> Julie
> _______________________________________________
> nagdu mailing list
> nagdu at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> nagdu:
>
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n.net
------------------------------
Message: 30
Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2011 10:21:52 -0600
From: Cindy Ray <cindyray at gmail.com>
To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
<nagdu at nfbnet.org>
Subject: Re: [nagdu] question for those who have had children
Message-ID: <F68FC99B-076E-4009-8671-43874D4E8BBE at gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
I would either have a friend take care of the dog, a family member if there
is one handy, or I would kennel it at my vet if the vet has that kind of
services. Obviously, you will want to make arrangements ahead of time. When
my child was born, I wasn't using a dog, but this is my reaction to the
question.
On Feb 3, 2011, at 10:03 AM, Jessica Pitzer wrote:
> So, my fiancee and I are going to hopefully be starting a family soon,
> and I've been wondering something.
> How do you handle the dog when its time to go to the hospital to give
> birth, obviously you can't do much with it, as your in bed, and I'd
> think it impractical to leave it home if everyone is at the hospital
> with you.
> Thoughts?
> Jessica and Kip
>
> _______________________________________________
> nagdu mailing list
> nagdu at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
nagdu:
>
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/cindyray%40gmail.com
------------------------------
Message: 31
Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2011 10:32:06 -0600
From: Julie McGinnity <kaybaycar at gmail.com>
To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
<nagdu at nfbnet.org>
Subject: Re: [nagdu] going to church
Message-ID:
<AANLkTikCxwA_BUq87W8JKXuAOSGbNvXdOsOq-toYhZHG at mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Before I went to GEB, they asked me if I wanted to go to church. I
told them I wanted to go, and they found a volunteer to take me to
their local church. All you have to do is tell them ahead of time,
and it is all arranged. I remember reading that if you are Jewish and
must go on Saturday, they will work that out, but I can't remember
clearly. It didn't affect me, but I do remember thinking that was
cool.
On 2/3/11, Margo and Arrow <margo.downey at verizon.net> wrote:
> You choose your place of worship and if there is a place of worship
exactly
> or similar to what you're looking for within a reasonable distance, even
in
> another town, they'll get you there.
>
> this is for the Seeing Eye.
>
> Margo and Arrow
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Julie J" <julielj at neb.rr.com>
> To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Thursday, February 03, 2011 8:51 AM
> Subject: [nagdu] going to church
>
>
>> The topic of going to church while at guide dog school has fascinated me
>> for years. So today I'm just going to ask, how exactly does this work?
I
>>
>> mean is there one church that everyone goes to? Or do you get to pick
>> which one you want to attend? what if your religion isn't Christian,
will
>>
>> they take you to a Temple, Mosque or other place of worship, given that
>> there is one in the area? Also what if your day of worship isn't Sunday,
>> are there options for worship services on other days?
>>
>> I'm asking out of sheer curiosity. I don't attend church myself.
>>
>> Julie
>> _______________________________________________
>> nagdu mailing list
>> nagdu at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> nagdu:
>>
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/margo.downey%40verizo
n.net
>>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> nagdu mailing list
> nagdu at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
nagdu:
>
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>
--
Julie McG
Lindbergh High School class of 2009, participating member in Opera
Theater's Artist in Training Program, and proud graduate of Guiding
Eyes for the Blind
"For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that
everyone who believes in him may not perish but may have eternal
life."
John 3:16
------------------------------
Message: 32
Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2011 16:30:00 +0000
From: "PICKRELL, REBECCA M (TASC)" <REBECCA.PICKRELL at tasc.com>
To: "'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog
Users'" <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
Subject: Re: [nagdu] question for those who have had children
Message-ID: <525A75DDF9A4104BAEDC1B3ACED1579C14366B2B at TSEAMB02>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
In my case, I braught my dog to the hospital and had someone who would and
could follow dog rules come get her. You want someone who isn't involved in
the birth process or its aftermath. The hospitals cannot refuse your dog,
though they do not have to care for your dog. Also, if you needed a
c-section, the dog would not be able to be with you in the operating room. I
think for a vaginal birth, the dog could be with you. I wouldn't have
wanted that, though in all honesty, I'm not sure I'd have cared once things
really got going. I also have a friend who had a home birth. Her pet dog was
present during the whole time and she swears this helped the dog bond with
the kids. I say this just for adifferent perspective.
-----Original Message-----
From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf
Of Jessica Pitzer
Sent: Thursday, February 03, 2011 11:03 AM
Subject: [nagdu] question for those who have had children
So, my fiancee and I are going to hopefully be starting a family soon,
and I've been wondering something.
How do you handle the dog when its time to go to the hospital to give
birth, obviously you can't do much with it, as your in bed, and I'd
think it impractical to leave it home if everyone is at the hospital
with you.
Thoughts?
Jessica and Kip
_______________________________________________
nagdu mailing list
nagdu at nfbnet.org
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
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http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/rebecca.pickrell%40ta
sc.com
------------------------------
Message: 33
Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2011 10:34:26 -0600
From: Cindy Ray <cindyray at gmail.com>
To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
<nagdu at nfbnet.org>
Subject: Re: [nagdu] going to church
Message-ID: <713ADA9D-54E6-46AF-BA27-5FDB269574B6 at gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
At The Seeing Eye, too, the instructors tend to take you to the place of
worship. I should think if you were one who worships on Saturday, they would
need to make allowances. A lot of people elected not to go to church even
though they were ordinarily somewhat regular at home. At The Seeing Eye, you
can't go the first Sunday because of Juno Walks and getting to know your
instrutors and some lectures. The next week, after you have had your dog
about 6 days, you can go but are not able to take the dog with you. The last
Sunday or two you are able to attend worship and take the dog. I would think
that since they do class with diabetics some on Sunday, they would also be
able to rearrange a schedule for someone who worships on Saturday, but I've
not known anyone to do it. Rebecca, that would be interesting to hear from
an Orthodox Rabbi concerning the need to make changes.
CL
------------------------------
Message: 34
Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2011 10:40:36 -0600
From: Cindy Ray <cindyray at gmail.com>
To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
<nagdu at nfbnet.org>
Subject: Re: [nagdu] question for those who have had children
Message-ID: <EA49D748-0F17-4B3C-9C8D-159EF8BD1FE1 at gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
I think if I was going to have the dog with me at the hospital and they had
those birthing rooms that they often have these days I would be plenty
pleased to have the dog there with me while birthing the baby, though I
would sooner have it somewhere else since I couldn't care for it anyway. In
settings like that you can actually have others come in anyway, so it
wouldn't be a problem, but you still have to deal with the time you are
there, which is likely at least over night. I don't guess I hae to concern
myself with it though anymore. <Grin>
------------------------------
Message: 35
Date: Thu, 03 Feb 2011 11:45:04 -0500
From: Brenda <bjnite at windstream.net>
To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
<nagdu at nfbnet.org>
Subject: Re: [nagdu] FIDELCO ownership rights and other things.
Message-ID: <4D4ADB90.3040206 at windstream.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
Brian
Well said.
I have asked what the person who had her dog removed from Fidelco was
actually told with no response - makes me wonder. I do not think the
whole story has been relayed about the incidents at Leader either. I
find it amazing that a dog could be removed with little warning and no
cause - something is missing OR at least it would be nice to hear from
the school and the handler (both sides of the story) so an informed
opinion could be made about a certain school.
Maybe in the survey that is being prepared there could be an entry of
how many dogs have been repo'd by the school and the reason the school
gave for the forced return.
Another survey question would be what is the reason for your ownership
policy? Why do you require a handler to wait two years before awarding
ownership?
Brenda
Brenda
On 2/3/2011 11:04 AM, Bryan Brown wrote:
> Hi all,
>
> The day after Marion posted the message about the woman who
> had their dog
> repossessed by FIDELCO for no reason... I received a call from a
> FIDELCO trainer. She was
> calling to find out if she could meet with me for a follow up visit. I
> scheduled a time to meet with her on the seventeenth of February,
> since I am
> not in what you might say is FIDELCO's traditional service area this
> will be
> the first follow up visit that I have had. They have offered, but I
> haven't had any
> problems that I thought needed a trainers help with so I declined. Any
> time
> I have ever had an issue or question I just call out to FIDELCO and I get
> put right through to someone who can help. I've never had to request
> follow
> up, I guess I've been lucky and not had any issues as a working team
> that I couldn't deal with myself. I'd be comfortable if FIDELCO called
> and
> said hey we're five minutes from your house and we want to see your
> dog. That would be great, I don't have any reasons to be anything
> other than proud of my dog. They were however nice enough to give me
> more than two weeks notice and make sure that it worked with my
> schedule. I'm far from intimidated, in fact I'm
> excited, I know that I have nothing to worry about, my dog is healthy,
> he is in great shape , we are a great working team and I'll be proud
> to show
> off our teamwork to someone who knows how much it takes to develop
> that type
> of relationship with a dog. My only concern is that the trainer might
> not be
> able to stick around and have dinner with myself and my family.
>
> It's unfortunate that anyone would ever have their dog unjustly
> removed from
> them and I'm not sure how that would benefit the program, imagine the
> implications if a person could prove those allegations, for instance
> in front of a jury? Why aren't the people who have supposedly had
> their dogs removed
> making a public show of such an unjust action? I know if that happened
> to me
> I'd be the first to call the sheriff, my vet, my attorney and the
> media, I'd make a
> huge stink of it, but I am confident that I have done nothing to bring
> such
> action on myself. , maybe the parties in question are not quite so
> confident? Is it possible that the inflammatory comments that Marion
> has made about FIDELCO and Mr. Russman are rooted in limited
> information and Mr. Russman's reservations to bow down to the big bad
> NFB?
>
> as far as I know... I own Tarik, do I think I have that right, "yes"
> at this
> point after five years it would be cruel to remove him from me, I am
> as much
> his life as he is mine. Do I think I deserved to own him upon
> graduation, my
> answer is no. I feel as though having a dog is a wonderful privilege
> in the
> case of a FIDELCO dog it's a 45,000 dollar privilege and I am the
> custodian of that privilege. It is my responsibility to hold up my end of
> the bargain. I knew what it was when I got the dog and I was confident
> in my
> ability to hold up my end of the bargain throughout his working life.
> That's
> why I signed my name on the line.
>
> I think making negative comments about any given program in a public
> forum
> without first hand experience is wrong and only serves to tarnish the
> program. If people have complaints so be it, but unless the complaints
> are coming directly from the people making them, the information has
> probably been spun and is most certainly one sided.
>
> I'm not sure why anyone sees fit to vilify any guide dog program.
> all the people that work so hard to provide us with these wonderful
> animals aren't doing it for the money. I'm fairly sure that the puppy
> raisers aren't pulling down huge salaries, and that the trainers
> surely aren't earning six figures, I see that they are doing it
> because they are genuinely good people, and that they either have a
> passion for helping, or dogs, or both!
>
> Why is it that I see such a militant attitude with so much of the NFB?
> I know it's a strong advocacy group, but I personally don't want to be
> advocated for by a group that comes across so negatively. We've become
> a society of victims, everything is always somebody else's fault and
> there is always someone out to get you, I see it in strangers and
> people I know and love. People have to start standing up for
> themselves again and taking responsibility for their own actions.
>
> Bryan
> -----
>
> _______________________________________________
> nagdu mailing list
> nagdu at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> nagdu:
>
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/bjnite%40windstream.n
et
>
>
------------------------------
Message: 36
Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2011 17:02:55 +0000
From: "PICKRELL, REBECCA M (TASC)" <REBECCA.PICKRELL at tasc.com>
To: "'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog
Users'" <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
Subject: Re: [nagdu] question for those who have had children
Message-ID: <525A75DDF9A4104BAEDC1B3ACED1579C14366B95 at TSEAMB02>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
In the birthing rooms, you can have anybody you want there. It's neat. The
question that you and your husband need to think about is who you both want
there. That's something only the two of you can answer.
-----Original Message-----
From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf
Of Cindy Ray
Sent: Thursday, February 03, 2011 11:41 AM
To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
Subject: Re: [nagdu] question for those who have had children
I think if I was going to have the dog with me at the hospital and they had
those birthing rooms that they often have these days I would be plenty
pleased to have the dog there with me while birthing the baby, though I
would sooner have it somewhere else since I couldn't care for it anyway. In
settings like that you can actually have others come in anyway, so it
wouldn't be a problem, but you still have to deal with the time you are
there, which is likely at least over night. I don't guess I hae to concern
myself with it though anymore. <Grin>
_______________________________________________
nagdu mailing list
nagdu at nfbnet.org
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
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sc.com
------------------------------
Message: 37
Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2011 11:16:19 -0600
From: "Cindy Ray" <cindyray at gmail.com>
To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
<nagdu at nfbnet.org>
Subject: Re: [nagdu] question for those who have had children
Message-ID: <9B8581E5E88B4711B98BBEFA664B4227 at CindyAspireOne>
Well, of course, if you were using a birthing room, after the process your
husband could help in this. I won't have to worry about it anymore, as I
said. <Giggle> When I had my adorable daughter, there weren't birthing rooms
and I didn't use a dog.
Cindy
------------------------------
Message: 38
Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2011 17:28:57 +0000
From: "PICKRELL, REBECCA M (TASC)" <REBECCA.PICKRELL at tasc.com>
To: "'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog
Users'" <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
Subject: Re: [nagdu] question for those who have had children
Message-ID: <525A75DDF9A4104BAEDC1B3ACED1579C14366BCB at TSEAMB02>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Mine couldn't. He was a little spooked by the birth process and then he
wanted to be with me and our daughter. He'd not have wanted to go take care
of a dog.
-----Original Message-----
From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf
Of Cindy Ray
Sent: Thursday, February 03, 2011 12:16 PM
To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
Subject: Re: [nagdu] question for those who have had children
Well, of course, if you were using a birthing room, after the process your
husband could help in this. I won't have to worry about it anymore, as I
said. <Giggle> When I had my adorable daughter, there weren't birthing rooms
and I didn't use a dog.
Cindy
_______________________________________________
nagdu mailing list
nagdu at nfbnet.org
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nagdu:
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sc.com
------------------------------
Message: 39
Date: Thu, 03 Feb 2011 12:36:04 -0500
From: "Marion Gwizdala" <blind411 at verizon.net>
To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
<nagdu at nfbnet.org>
Subject: Re: [nagdu] FIDELCO ownership rights and other things.
Message-ID: <015301cbc3c8$d5c23060$0201a8c0 at marion475ae1fe>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=iso-8859-1;
reply-type=response
Dear All,
I will only say that we have attempted to get Fidelco's side of the story
and, in spite of a signed release of information, Mr. Russman refused to
talk to us about it. As this message so astutely stated, it makes us wonder
what they are hiding. A great deal, we have come to find out, as more
consumer come forward with similar stories. If it were an isolated incident,
I would question the details. As a pattern evolves and we find credible
information with physical evidence, it supports our action.
Fraternally yours,
Marion Gwizdala
----- Original Message -----
From: "Brenda" <bjnite at windstream.net>
To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
<nagdu at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Thursday, February 03, 2011 11:45 AM
Subject: Re: [nagdu] FIDELCO ownership rights and other things.
> Brian
> Well said.
> I have asked what the person who had her dog removed from Fidelco was
> actually told with no response - makes me wonder. I do not think the
> whole story has been relayed about the incidents at Leader either. I find
> it amazing that a dog could be removed with little warning and no cause -
> something is missing OR at least it would be nice to hear from the school
> and the handler (both sides of the story) so an informed opinion could be
> made about a certain school.
>
> Maybe in the survey that is being prepared there could be an entry of how
> many dogs have been repo'd by the school and the reason the school gave
> for the forced return.
>
> Another survey question would be what is the reason for your ownership
> policy? Why do you require a handler to wait two years before awarding
> ownership?
>
> Brenda
> Brenda
>
> On 2/3/2011 11:04 AM, Bryan Brown wrote:
>> Hi all,
>>
>> The day after Marion posted the message about the woman who had
>> their dog
>> repossessed by FIDELCO for no reason... I received a call from a FIDELCO
>> trainer. She was
>> calling to find out if she could meet with me for a follow up visit. I
>> scheduled a time to meet with her on the seventeenth of February, since I
>> am
>> not in what you might say is FIDELCO's traditional service area this will
>> be
>> the first follow up visit that I have had. They have offered, but I
>> haven't had any
>> problems that I thought needed a trainers help with so I declined. Any
>> time
>> I have ever had an issue or question I just call out to FIDELCO and I get
>> put right through to someone who can help. I've never had to request
>> follow
>> up, I guess I've been lucky and not had any issues as a working team
>> that I couldn't deal with myself. I'd be comfortable if FIDELCO called
>> and
>> said hey we're five minutes from your house and we want to see your dog.
>> That would be great, I don't have any reasons to be anything other than
>> proud of my dog. They were however nice enough to give me more than two
>> weeks notice and make sure that it worked with my schedule. I'm far from
>> intimidated, in fact I'm
>> excited, I know that I have nothing to worry about, my dog is healthy, he
>> is in great shape , we are a great working team and I'll be proud to show
>> off our teamwork to someone who knows how much it takes to develop that
>> type
>> of relationship with a dog. My only concern is that the trainer might not
>> be
>> able to stick around and have dinner with myself and my family.
>>
>> It's unfortunate that anyone would ever have their dog unjustly removed
>> from
>> them and I'm not sure how that would benefit the program, imagine the
>> implications if a person could prove those allegations, for instance in
>> front of a jury? Why aren't the people who have supposedly had their dogs
>> removed
>> making a public show of such an unjust action? I know if that happened to
>> me
>> I'd be the first to call the sheriff, my vet, my attorney and the media,
>> I'd make a
>> huge stink of it, but I am confident that I have done nothing to bring
>> such
>> action on myself. , maybe the parties in question are not quite so
>> confident? Is it possible that the inflammatory comments that Marion has
>> made about FIDELCO and Mr. Russman are rooted in limited information and
>> Mr. Russman's reservations to bow down to the big bad NFB?
>>
>> as far as I know... I own Tarik, do I think I have that right, "yes" at
>> this
>> point after five years it would be cruel to remove him from me, I am as
>> much
>> his life as he is mine. Do I think I deserved to own him upon graduation,
>> my
>> answer is no. I feel as though having a dog is a wonderful privilege in
>> the
>> case of a FIDELCO dog it's a 45,000 dollar privilege and I am the
>> custodian of that privilege. It is my responsibility to hold up my end of
>> the bargain. I knew what it was when I got the dog and I was confident in
>> my
>> ability to hold up my end of the bargain throughout his working life.
>> That's
>> why I signed my name on the line.
>>
>> I think making negative comments about any given program in a public
>> forum
>> without first hand experience is wrong and only serves to tarnish the
>> program. If people have complaints so be it, but unless the complaints
>> are coming directly from the people making them, the information has
>> probably been spun and is most certainly one sided.
>>
>> I'm not sure why anyone sees fit to vilify any guide dog program. all
>> the people that work so hard to provide us with these wonderful animals
>> aren't doing it for the money. I'm fairly sure that the puppy raisers
>> aren't pulling down huge salaries, and that the trainers surely aren't
>> earning six figures, I see that they are doing it because they are
>> genuinely good people, and that they either have a passion for helping,
>> or dogs, or both!
>>
>> Why is it that I see such a militant attitude with so much of the NFB? I
>> know it's a strong advocacy group, but I personally don't want to be
>> advocated for by a group that comes across so negatively. We've become a
>> society of victims, everything is always somebody else's fault and there
>> is always someone out to get you, I see it in strangers and people I know
>> and love. People have to start standing up for themselves again and
>> taking responsibility for their own actions.
>>
>> Bryan
>> -----
>>
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