[nagdu] Training for Overheads WAS Cost of owning a guide dog

Tamara Smith-Kinney tamara.8024 at comcast.net
Sat Mar 19 03:36:50 UTC 2011 

Gary,

Which does beg the question why.  /grin/

To start with when it comes to teaching our guides to look out for things at
our head height is to remember that it is not natural for a dog to consider
any such thing.  Any more than we go along watching out for things 20 feet
high...  It's just not something we're wired to look for, so we don't
register that sort of thing when we're navigating by sight.  Same with dogs.

So the key is to bring things at your head height to the dog's attention.
This is much trickier to do when you can't see it yourself.  /smile/  I
would suggest going to a familiar route with, say, low-hanging twigs and
small branches -- say new growth weighed down a bit by spring buds or some
such.  

I always wore -- and still do when I'm hiking and stuff -- a baseball cap
and sunglasses to protect my noggin and eyes.  Be careful *not* to mention
to any sighted person who asks that you are wearing the sunglasses to
protect your eyes so they don't get poked out.  The sighted person is far
too likely to blurt out:  But why does it matter if your eyes get poked out
when you can't use them anyway?  You do not want to hear this question,
trust me.  If, in a careless moment, you forget yourself and get to hear it
asked, whatever you do, don't just answer it.  This will only confuse the
sighted person, who will ask it again, more insistently.  This sort of thing
can cause permanent brain damage. /evil grin/

Okay, so there you are.  You're wearing your baseball cap and your shades,
you've got your poodle on leash in one hand and your cane in the other.  Go
out looking for something to brush your head on!

When you do, stop and gasp in horror.  Say, "Ow!" loudly and dramatically.
Whack the object with your cane and duck extravagantly as you seek your way
around it.  Sigh with ostentatious relief when you've done so.  Go on to the
next obstacle and do it again.  Wipe your hand across your forehead -- as
close as the bill of the cap will allow, to draw attention to what you're
relieved to have not hit.

With this obstacle, look at your poodle and ask him if he can figure it out.
He is likely to be looking at you like you're just plain nuts by now, but do
it anyway.  /lol/  If he doesn't leash guide, perhaps try touching his head
in a gesture of helpless need for guidance around this thing that is in
front of your head.

Then go have fun with the poodle.  While you're playing ball with him, hold
the ball at your head height to bring his attention there before you throw
it.  Do this a couple of times, have fun some other way, do it again a
couple of times, etc.  On the way home, perhaps let the poodle walk in front
of you as you approach your low-hanging branches.  Show your hesitancy and
hold the cane in front of your face to protect it.  See if the poodle pulls
or nudges you around the obstacles.  If he's anything like mine, he's
probably figured it out by now and will give you a little help since he
doesn't want to hear all your carping and complaining....

If you use a clicker or praise, do that when he starts to nudge you.  If he
doesn't, stop and turn around to try to find a way around the obstacle with
the cane you're holding in front of your face...  Etc.  When he first gets
it and "helps" you avoid the obstacle, don't forget to gush while you're
clicking and/or praising or whatever.  Oh, and smile!  Laugh.  Poodles
*live* for smiles and laughter.

Do this the next day, and maybe the next, remembering to gush and praise and
grin like a maniac as your poodle picks up this wonderful new idea and way
to make you happy.

Then try it in harness, but do remember to wear your shades and cap, just in
case.  If you brush your head, just turn the dog around and have him try it
again until he remembers to take you around.  Gush.  Go on to the next
obstacle, repeat as necessary.  When you get to the park, play like a fiend
and laugh a lot for your dog.  /lol/

That is, in fact, the way I taught Mitzi.  I started with that and a lot of
other concepts while we were still doing long leash work when she was a pup.
But I bet your young fellow will pick it up as quickly.  That quirky poodle
intelligence and sense of play makes training new concepts and behaviors
ridiculously easy, especially if they're complicated. The boring stuff took
a lot longer with Mitzi, and I just sort of had to wait for her to grow up
enough to be still.  /smile/

You may want to adapt the technique for your guy, naturally.  Just remember
that the main thing you're trying to accomplish is to clue him in to
obstacles at head height and to let him know that these will cause you
problems if he doesn't take you around them.  Then, of course, the grin and
gush when he does get it right, or simply having him do it over if you do
brush your head...  You may not have noticed, but poodles *hate* to be
bored, and going past the same obstacle again and again is bo-ring!  /lol/

Good luck and let me know what you work out and how it goes! 

Tami Smith-Kinney

-----Original Message-----
From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf
Of Gary
Sent: Friday, March 18, 2011 3:55 PM
To: 'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
Subject: Re: [nagdu] Cost of owning a guide dog

Tami:

I forgot to ask you about this when I saw it. One of the reasons I got a
guide dog was to protect me from over hanging things. However, my school
does not teach this. How do you teach a dog to manage this? I  know, just a
little simple question for a Friday afternoon. :)

Don't forget we're talking about a poodle here.

Gary


-----Original Message-----
From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf
Of Tamara Smith-Kinney
Sent: Monday, February 21, 2011 8:23 PM
To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
Subject: Re: [nagdu] Cost of owning a guide dog

Phil,

One important thing a dog can detect and guide you around is overhead
obstacles.  Key selling factor for me.  /smile/

Some programs teach the guide command; I know some guide dog users from
programs that do not teach the command do teach theirs dogs after
graduation.

My owner-trained poodle guide Mitzi is quite the little finder!  Off the top
of my head, the things she finds for me include the following:  doors,
restrooms, stairs, sidewalks, crosswalks, paths, elevators, escalators, push
buttons on street signs, the trash, the truck, people by name, and a few
other things.  All that crazy stuff they say about poodle vocabulary
acquisition is apparently not so crazy as I originally believed.  /smile/
She points out items of interest to me, as well, like brands I buy at the
supermarket, etc., etc.  She can find certain supermarket aisles.  I do not
know how.

Most importantly, she finds Starbucks!  /smile/

She also apparently knows the phrase, "wrangle a human" and can do so while
I'm muttering about it to myself.

Finding locations is a really great convenience in everyday travel, as I'm
sure you can imagine.  My dogs love of finding and her unreal vocabulary
have me so spoiled that I can't find my way out of a paper bag with my cane.
/smile/

Tami Smith-Kinney

-----Original Message-----
From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf
Of Philip S
Sent: Monday, February 21, 2011 4:40 PM
To: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users
Subject: Re: [nagdu] Cost of owning a guide dog

Hi Jessica, Julie and all,
Could you elaborate on what you meant by "a dog can find things
whereas a cane cannot"?  What kinds of things are you referring to?
Certainly it depends on a dog's health, but around what age do guide
dogs usually retire?
Thanks a lot for your help!
Phil


On 2/21/11, Jessica Pitzer <rolosgirl at gmail.com> wrote:
> I used a cane for about 17 years or so. A dog can find things where as
> a cane can not, but a cane can give you more tacticle info. I prefer
> the dog obviously.
>
> On 2/21/11, Julie J <julielj at neb.rr.com> wrote:
>> Phil,
>>
>> I have my current guide and my retired guide here.
>>
>> Some people do get pet insurance, but I'd caution reading the fine print
>> before signing on the dotted line.  I've heard a lot of people say they
>> aren't worth the cost, that it's better to just put the money in a
savings
>> account.   I haven't spend that much time looking into insurance, so I
>> have
>> no idea which plans are better than others.  If this is a concern, I'd
ask
>> the program you are considering what sort of support they offer in cases
>> of
>> unforeseen medical expenses.
>>
>> Julie
>>
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Philip S" <philso1003 at gmail.com>
>> To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Monday, February 21, 2011 4:44 PM
>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Cost of owning a guide dog
>>
>>
>>> Hi Julie,
>>> Thanks for your detailed answers.  You mentioned "both of your dogs".
>>> Do you have 2 guide dogs?  Yes, vet visits and unforeseen medical
>>> expenses can be costly.  Is it a common practice for people to buy
>>> health insurance for their guide dogs such as from PetPlan?
>>> Thanks.
>>> Phil
>>>
>>>
>>> On 2/20/11, Julie J <julielj at neb.rr.com> wrote:
>>>> Phil,
>>>>
>>>> My best answer is...it depends.  It's hard to pin down an exact amount
I
>>>> spend monthly or yearly because there are so many variables. Here's my
>>>> best
>>>> guess at your individual questions.
>>>>
>>>>> About how much can I expect the cost to increase as a dog gets bigger
>
>>>>> (eat more?) and older (more vet visits?)
>>>> *> The cost you incur on food won't really change over the lifetime of
>>>> the
>>>> dog since all the programs will be matching you with an adult dog.
>>>> Whether
>>>> or not you spend a lot on vet visits totally depends on the individual
>>>> health of the dog.  I wish I knew of some way to predict health and
>>>> longevity, but I don't.*
>>>>
>>>>> In particular, how much do you spend each month (or each year on the
>>>>> following)?
>>>>> Food  *approx. $600 per year I have a very large dog who cannot
>>>>> tolerate
>>>>> corn, wheat or soy*
>>>>> Treats *I only buy treats every now and then, maybe $20 per year.
>>>>> Typically I use regular dog food or find something appropriate from
the
>>>>> refridgerator.*
>>>>> Snacks *I don't really do snacks*
>>>>> regular Vet visit*approx. $30 per year, but I live in a very rural
>>>>> environment.  My vet is super cheap compared to what you'd experience
>>>>> in
>>>>>
>>>>> a
>>>>>
>>>>> large city.*
>>>>> Major medical expense*Absolutely no way to know in advance.*
>>>>> supplies*I've had dogs for all of my life.  Many of the supplies I
have
>>>>> like brushes etc.  I've had for ages.  None of them were very
>>>>> expensive,
>>>>> except for the Furminator.  You could buy all the brushes and combs
>>>>> you'd
>>>>> need for under $20.  I think the dishes I have cost something like $7
>>>>> or
>>>>> so.*
>>>>> Kennel*Again I have a very large dog, 27 inches tall.  There aren't a
>>>>> lot
>>>>> to choose from when you get to that size.  I have a VariKennel which
>>>>> was
>>>>> about $100.*
>>>>> license*Spayed or neutered dogs are $5 here, which I do pay.
>>>>> Technically
>>>>> speaking a fee cannot be charged to you because of your choice of
>>>>> mobility
>>>>>
>>>>> tool.  Your experience in getting local authorities to understand this
>>>>> may
>>>>>
>>>>> vary.*
>>>>> Toy*my dogs are spoiled in the toy department.  They have an entire
bin
>>>>> full of them.  I try to pick super durable toys that will last a long
>>>>> while though.  I'd say the current toy selection probably cost me
>>>>> around
>>>>> $100, but they weren't purchased all at once and they obviously don't
>>>>> need
>>>>>
>>>>> all of those toys.  I like King Wholesale for toys.  They are about
>>>>> half
>>>>> the price of Petsmart or Petco.*
>>>>>
>>>>> Do you visit any dog/pet website?
>>>> *Yes, many.  I like King Wholesale for toys, supplies, grooming needs
>>>> etc.*
>>>>
>>>> Do you get your dog food/supplies
>>>>> online or at a store?
>>>>> *Generally online.  Again I live in a very, very small town.  There is
>>>>> no
>>>>> pet store here.  I feed Flint River Ranch dog food to both of my dogs.
>>>>> it's only available on line and delivered to your front door.*
>>>>> Thanks very much for your help!
>>>> *No problem.  I did want to mention that most/all of the guide dog
>>>> programs
>>>> will provide you with a couple of toys, a mat or crate, leash, collar,
>>>> harness, food bowl, brush and probably other stuff I'm forgetting at
the
>>>> moment.  the two major expenses are food and vet bills.  Some of the
>>>> programs will provide a yearly stipend or  assistance with unforseen
vet
>>>> costs.  If you live close enough to the school I think most of them
will
>>>> allow you to take your dog there for vet visits free of charge.*
>>>>
>>>> Julie
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
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