[nagdu] another what would you do question

Ann Edie annedie at nycap.rr.com
Mon Apr 9 19:48:35 UTC 2012 

Hi, Julie,

I totally agree with you, Julie, that it is not your responsibility to
prevent a terrible event from occurring with this alleged vicious guide dog,
even if you had the advantage of having perfect vision with which to monitor
the environment.  Obviously it is mostly the responsibility of the handler
with the allegedly out-of-control dog to do the due diligence of protecting
the public, whether another service animal user or anyone else in the
vicinity, from injury or emotional trauma caused by his dog.  I know that
you are not in the habit of letting your dog approach and take liberties
with another dog in a public place, and that you yourself are even less
likely to do so.  But even if a service animal's space is invaded or if
someone accidently steps on its tail or a paw, the animal is not expected to
bite or otherwise react viciously.  No matter what the cause of the
aggressive behavior, and no matter how much the handler's love and loyalty
toward his dog cloud his judgment, it is still the handler's legal and
social responsibility to prevent the animal from harming anyone or
disrupting the event.

If the dog has actually bitten a person or attacked another animal, then it
should not be permitted to continue serving as a service animal with public
access.  If you do speak to the person who was allegedly bitten, and if you
are satisfied that the story is indeed true, then I think I would inform the
handler of the dog which has shown aggressive behavior that you are planning
to attend the event accompanied by your guide, and that you expect the other
handler to do whatever is necessary to prevent any danger to yourself or
your guide dog, whether that means muzzling the other dog, leaving it home,
or permanently retiring the dog.  I see no room for excuses, second chances,
or kennel blindness in a case such as this.

If the person who was previously bitten did not file a formal complaint with
the police and there is therefore no grounds upon which to get the police or
animal control involved, then it might indeed be useful to inform the guide
dog training program which trained the allegedly vicious dog of the
situation.  One hopes that the program is concerned enough about the
reputation of their program and their product that they would immediately
investigate.

I believe that the laws about not interfering with the work of a service dog
apply as much to another service animal user as they do to pet dog owners.
And certainly the laws pertaining to vicious animals apply as much to guide
dogs as they do to any other dog, if not more so because service dogs are
permitted in places where pets may be legally prohibited.

I am not necessarily blaming the other dog handler for causing the dog's
aggressive behavior or for not being able to correct or control it.  But
that handler certainly must take responsibility for the legal, medical, and
emotional consequences of his dog's behavior.  And to me, that is far too
high a price to pay for the services of any service animal, no matter how
deep the bond or how amazing the dog's work.  If the dog shows the slightest
tendency to aggressive behavior toward humans or other animals, and in my
mind, this includes growling at people or animals which merely enter the
room or pass by the service animal, then it should simply be retired, no
ifs, ands, or buts!  And this, as you may remember, is coming from a person
who has had to send back to the training program two guide dogs which
demonstrated aggressive behavior early in their placements, one which chased
anything that moved, including light beams or sparkles, (although it was
when she erupted, barking, growling, and lunging after a couple of children
sitting in the audience at a workshop and playing an electronic game, that I
knew for sure I couldn't keep her), and one which repeatedly bolted off
after other dogs, cats, and squirrels, and with whom I worked for a solid
year with the training program to try to manage the problem.  So I don't
blame the person for the aggressive behavior of the dog, but I do expect him
to do what is needed to protect the public and other service animal teams
from the consequences of that behavior.

Best,
Ann

-----Original Message-----
From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf
Of Julie J.
Sent: Monday, April 09, 2012 8:12 AM
To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
Subject: Re: [nagdu] another what would you do question

A couple more questions for you...do you have advice on how to stay away
from this other dog?  I have a bit of usable vision, but not enough to be
able to say scope out whether or not there is a dog by the door across the
room where I want to exit.  I don't know how I would be able to know with a
high level of reliability where this other dog is at all times.  Also if
this other dog is actually dangerous how is that not my problem?

Several people have said that I should give the other dog space and to
control my own dog because that's all I can do.  While I think in theory
those are nice ideas, I just can't see how they would work in a practical
sense to keep a disaster from occurring.

Julie
On 4/9/2012 10:00 AM, Larry D. Keeler wrote:
>
> When you go around this dog, just keep a little distance between you 
> and this other.  Lte the other dog do what it does and control yours!
> They'll get called out!  We can only control our dogs!  I do this and 
> if someone else can't, well its not my probblem!  ----- Original 
> Message ----- From: "Julie J." <julielj at neb.rr.com>
> To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users" 
> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Monday, April 09, 2012 10:38 AM
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] another what would you do question
>
>
>> I don't know for sure if the dog has bitten someone.  I only know 
>> what people have told me.  I do know the person who is supposed to 
>> have been bitten and I intend on asking about it when I get the 
>> opportunity.
>>
>> I don't want to accuse anyone of anything that I don't know for 
>> certain. After all I don't know this person and have never met either 
>> him or the dog.  On the other hand what people are saying is quite 
>> serious.  I want to plan ahead and prevent any problems from 
>> occurring if that is possible. If something does happen I will most 
>> certainly not sweep it under the rug.
>>
>> Julie
>>
>> On 4/9/2012 9:30 AM, Tracy Carcione wrote:
>>> Biting people?!  This dog has bitten people, and no one's filed 
>>> charges,
>>> or called Animal Control?  And what is this guy thinking, working a dog
>>> that bites people?  That just seems crazy.  Are you sure it's that bad?
>>> Tracy
>>>
>>>> I don't know what the dog does, only what others have told me.  But
>>>> biting people does scare me, quite a lot.
>>>>
>>>> Julie
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On 4/9/2012 8:54 AM, Pickrell, Rebecca M (TASC) wrote:
>>>>> I have to ask, what does this dog do and why does it scare you?
>>>>> Kujo levels of aggression??
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>>>>> Behalf Of Julie J.
>>>>> Sent: Thursday, April 05, 2012 5:47 PM
>>>>> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] another what would you do question
>>>>>
>>>>> Jenine,
>>>>>
>>>>> thank you.  This is sorta what I was coming to, once I got over the
>>>>> initial panic. I'll have to ask around to get contact info for the
>>>>> gentleman.  We have never met.
>>>>>
>>>>> I did ask the people I talked to about what exactly the dog does.  
>>>>> I got
>>>>> very specific answers that honestly scare me.
>>>>>
>>>>> Then this afternoon I realized that my transportation master plan 
>>>>> is an
>>>>> epic fail for entirely other reasons.  So I may very well have to 
>>>>> find
>>>>> other transportation to this event, not because of the dog but 
>>>>> because I
>>>>> can't be in two places at once.  Honestly I need to be more diligent
>>>>> about putting things in the calendar. *sigh*
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks for the feedback.  It truly does help.
>>>>> Julie
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> 11:47 AM, Jenine Stanley wrote:
>>>>>> Julie,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I think my questions would include, to those trusted sources first:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Describe why you feel this dog is aggressive, what kinds of 
>>>>>> situations
>>>>>> have
>>>>>> you seen in which this dog exhibited aggressive behavior?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Then I'd  contact the person and just flat out ask, letting him know
>>>>>> that
>>>>>> you've heard reports that his dog has some issues with either
>>>>>> aggression, or
>>>>>> at the very least, making noise around other dogs, which is 
>>>>>> sometimes
>>>>>> mistaken for aggression. I'd let him know that you are concerned 
>>>>>> about
>>>>>> riding in a closed vehicle with this dog and just want to know where
>>>>>> things
>>>>>> stand, not to criticize him or the dog.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I think that's the fair way to handle it but whatever way you 
>>>>>> choose,
>>>>>> talking to the handler is going to have to be one of those necessary
>>>>>> evils.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Jenine Stanley
>>>>>> jeninems at wowway.com
>>>>>> http://www.twitter.com/jeninems
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>>>>>> Behalf
>>>>>> Of Julie J.
>>>>>> Sent: Thursday, April 05, 2012 12:28 PM
>>>>>> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>>>>>> Subject: [nagdu] another what would you do question
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Hello all!
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I have another what would you do in this situation question.  I'm 
>>>>>> going
>>>>>> to
>>>>>> apologize in advance because my information is going to seem 
>>>>>> cryptic.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I am attending an event with other blind people and some guide 
>>>>>> dogs. I
>>>>>> am
>>>>>> riding to this event in a van with one of the other guide dogs.  
>>>>>> I am
>>>>>> planning on taking Monty.  I have heard from more than one trusted
>>>>>> source that the other guide dog is aggressive.   I do not know the
>>>>>> other
>>>>>> guide dog handler at all.  I do not know what program the dog is 
>>>>>> from.
>>>>>> Not going to this event is not an option.  getting there another 
>>>>>> way is
>>>>>> an
>>>>>> extremely remote option that I'm looking into.  Even if I do find 
>>>>>> other
>>>>>> transportation I will be in a small hotel for the weekend where this
>>>>>> other
>>>>>> guide dog will also be.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> So what do I do?  I've thought about leaving Monty, but there 
>>>>>> won't be
>>>>>> anyone available to care for him.  I'd have to leave him at the dog
>>>>>> sitter's
>>>>>> place.  It also feels like leaving Monty is allowing the other 
>>>>>> person
>>>>>> to not
>>>>>> take responsibility for his dog.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Is there some obvious solution that I'm overlooking? I know you guys
>>>>>> are
>>>>>> awesome and will have great ideas.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> TIA
>>>>>> Julie
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
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