[nagdu] another what would you do question
Robert Hooper
hooper.90 at buckeyemail.osu.edu
Mon Apr 9 21:44:02 UTC 2012
Hello:
I thought the below was a good message for sparking discussion, so I will raise some points line-by-line I thought were interesting: [my thoughts will be placed in brackets, in order to distinguish them from the rest of the message]
Hi, Julie,
I totally agree with you, Julie, that it is not your responsibility to prevent a terrible event from occurring with this alleged vicious guide dog, even if you had the advantage of having perfect vision with which to monitor the environment. Obviously it is mostly the responsibility of the handler with the allegedly out-of-control dog to do the due diligence of protecting the public, whether another service animal user or anyone else in the vicinity, from injury or emotional trauma caused by his dog. I know that you are not in the habit of letting your dog approach and take liberties with another dog in a public place, and that you yourself are even less likely to do so. But even if a service animal's space is invaded or if someone accidently steps on its tail or a paw, the animal is not expected to bite or otherwise react viciously. [In most circumstances, I would completely agree with the preceding sentence. However, an injured dog has the instinct of biting at the thing he/she believes to be hurting him or her. I would think it perfectly reasonable if a dog bit the leg of a 200 pound person applying all their weight on a dog's rib cage with one foot, for example. Also, if a paw or leg was recently injured and is healing, an accidental kick, nudge, or step might hurt loads more than it otherwise would, prompting a defensive bite reaction. When I was removing a splinter from my dog's back paw (between the toes), he tried to bite me. Granted he didn't clamp down and shake me like a prey animal, but he bit all the same. I didn't sustain any injury, as I don't believe he wanted to hurt me, but it was startling all the same. A dog biting someone shouldn't be immediately marked for execution.]
No matter what the cause of the aggressive behavior, and no matter how much the handler's love and loyalty toward his dog cloud his judgment, it is still the handler's legal and social responsibility to prevent the animal from harming anyone or disrupting the event. [I agree. We, as guide dog users, assume that responsibility when we take the leash for the first time, whether another school trains the dog or whether we train it ourselves.]
If the dog has actually bitten a person or attacked another animal, then it should not be permitted to continue serving as a service animal with public access. [I agree to the latter half of the sentence--if a dog has initiated an attack, then there are very likely serious issues that need to be addressed; the dog should probably be career changed, retired, or rehomed. However, if a dog has bitten a person, I think it important to look at the context. If a dog bites a person or animal who initiated an attack, then I would characterize that as normal, instinctive behavior undeserving of punishment. Also, dogs may attack if they believe another pack member to be in danger from someone outside the pack. For example, it is recommended that those involved in sports such as wrestling (or other such physical activities) expose their dogs to it whilst on tie-down, so that the dog will not be able to attack and can learn that what is happening is normal and that it has no reason to be alarmed. This will help to avoid nasty surprises for those who decide to have an impromptu wrestling match in the living-room with the dog unattended. This is normal pack behavior--the dog perceives a threat, although wrongly, and reacts. This doesn't indicate that the dog should be sautéed with onions and curry sauce and served to the victim of the attack.]
If you do speak to the person who was allegedly bitten, and if you are satisfied that the story is indeed true, then I think I would inform the handler of the dog which has shown aggressive behavior that you are planning to attend the event accompanied by your guide, and that you expect the other handler to do whatever is necessary to prevent any danger to yourself or your guide dog, whether that means muzzling the other dog, leaving it home, or permanently retiring the dog. I see no room for excuses, second chances, or kennel blindness in a case such as this. [If you are suggesting that Julie talk to the person using that language, then I must say that I couldn't think of a more tactless way to address the issue. I don't think anyone has any more right to tell someone that they should permanently retire their dog than I think someone has the right to tell someone else to what schools they should send their children. It is neither relevant nor our concern what this person decides to do with their dog. If I were to call this individual, I believe it would be more useful to politely and respectfully inquire about the issue, and ask if, when, and how I should be concerned in regards to my dog's safety and what I should do to maximize that--everything else is irrelevant and not my responsibility. Unfortunately, we don't have the power to tell that person to stay home--as you said, that person has a responsibility to their dog; somebody else's dog's behavior only becomes my business if there is a safety concern--if there is such, I can only talk it through with the other person so as to ensure my dog's safety--I do not have a right to tell the person what to do. Also, calling someone just for the sake of telling them to keep their animal under control serves no purpose except to cause potential emotional distress and anger. Once again, I'm approaching this from the perspective that we don't know squat about this handler--they might be diligent--they might have chosen to leave their dog home; calling them to "rub their nose in the issue" doesn't serve a purpose save to affirm that "yes, my dog is under control and you should know that".]
If the person who was previously bitten did not file a formal complaint with the police and there is therefore no grounds upon which to get the police or animal control involved, then it might indeed be useful to inform the guide dog training program which trained the allegedly vicious dog of the situation. One hopes that the program is concerned enough about the reputation of their program and their product that they would immediately investigate. [This is a great idea--I would wait to find out what kind of person this handler seems to be, however. If they seem to be apathetic about the situation (or abusive, etc.), then animal control and the school (if any) should be involved. Although if this person is a good handler, the school should already be involved.]
I believe that the laws about not interfering with the work of a service dog apply as much to another service animal user as they do to pet dog owners.
And certainly the laws pertaining to vicious animals apply as much to guide dogs as they do to any other dog, if not more so because service dogs are permitted in places where pets may be legally prohibited. [And to add to that: sometimes service animals are given more of a pass because of their being service animals--this is very unfortunate, and it doesn't give people an incentive to ensure their dogs' continued good behavior.]
I am not necessarily blaming the other dog handler for causing the dog's aggressive behavior or for not being able to correct or control it. But that handler certainly must take responsibility for the legal, medical, and emotional consequences of his dog's behavior. And to me, that is far too high a price to pay for the services of any service animal, no matter how deep the bond or how amazing the dog's work. [Yes--when it comes down to it, our dogs are primarily a mobility aid--what's the point of having it if we aren't confident enough to go outside for fear of our dogs being aggressive? Also, if a dog becomes inefficient (aggression, slowness, eye/health problems, etc.) we retire them. It's all about confidence and efficiency!]
If the dog shows the slightest tendency to aggressive behavior toward humans or other animals, and in my mind, this includes growling at people or animals which merely enter the room or pass by the service animal, then it should simply be retired, no ifs, ands, or buts!
And this, as you may remember, is coming from a person who has had to send back to the training program two guide dogs which demonstrated aggressive behavior early in their placements, one which chased anything that moved, including light beams or sparkles, (although it was when she erupted, barking, growling, and lunging after a couple of children sitting in the audience at a workshop and playing an electronic game, that I knew for sure I couldn't keep her), and one which repeatedly bolted off after other dogs, cats, and squirrels, and with whom I worked for a solid year with the training program to try to manage the problem. So I don't blame the person for the aggressive behavior of the dog, but I do expect him to do what is needed to protect the public and other service animal teams from the consequences of that behavior. [I must confess, I am a bit confused here. Above, you stated that you do not believe in second chances for a dog("there is no room for excuses, second chances..."), yet you admit to working with one on a problem for a year; what, then, do you mean when you say second chances? Also, by your logic, Bailey should have been retired a while ago, as he once growled at a cat. I should've foregone the correction and just taken him out back for a shotgun correction, right?]
I enjoyed this message--although after reviewing what I have written, it probably doesn't look like it--I'm just a sucker for spirited debate and controversy. Also, I would like a bit of clarification on the various issues. Thanks for such a well-conceived message.
Sincerely,
Robert Hooper
-----Original Message-----
From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Julie J.
Sent: Monday, April 09, 2012 8:12 AM
To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
Subject: Re: [nagdu] another what would you do question
A couple more questions for you...do you have advice on how to stay away from this other dog? I have a bit of usable vision, but not enough to be able to say scope out whether or not there is a dog by the door across the room where I want to exit. I don't know how I would be able to know with a high level of reliability where this other dog is at all times. Also if this other dog is actually dangerous how is that not my problem?
Several people have said that I should give the other dog space and to control my own dog because that's all I can do. While I think in theory those are nice ideas, I just can't see how they would work in a practical sense to keep a disaster from occurring.
Julie
On 4/9/2012 10:00 AM, Larry D. Keeler wrote:
>
> When you go around this dog, just keep a little distance between you
> and this other. Lte the other dog do what it does and control yours!
> They'll get called out! We can only control our dogs! I do this and
> if someone else can't, well its not my probblem! ----- Original
> Message ----- From: "Julie J." <julielj at neb.rr.com>
> To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Monday, April 09, 2012 10:38 AM
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] another what would you do question
>
>
>> I don't know for sure if the dog has bitten someone. I only know
>> what people have told me. I do know the person who is supposed to
>> have been bitten and I intend on asking about it when I get the
>> opportunity.
>>
>> I don't want to accuse anyone of anything that I don't know for
>> certain. After all I don't know this person and have never met either
>> him or the dog. On the other hand what people are saying is quite
>> serious. I want to plan ahead and prevent any problems from
>> occurring if that is possible. If something does happen I will most
>> certainly not sweep it under the rug.
>>
>> Julie
>>
>> On 4/9/2012 9:30 AM, Tracy Carcione wrote:
>>> Biting people?! This dog has bitten people, and no one's filed
>>> charges, or called Animal Control? And what is this guy thinking,
>>> working a dog that bites people? That just seems crazy. Are you
>>> sure it's that bad?
>>> Tracy
>>>
>>>> I don't know what the dog does, only what others have told me. But
>>>> biting people does scare me, quite a lot.
>>>>
>>>> Julie
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On 4/9/2012 8:54 AM, Pickrell, Rebecca M (TASC) wrote:
>>>>> I have to ask, what does this dog do and why does it scare you?
>>>>> Kujo levels of aggression??
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org]
>>>>> On Behalf Of Julie J.
>>>>> Sent: Thursday, April 05, 2012 5:47 PM
>>>>> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog
>>>>> Users
>>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] another what would you do question
>>>>>
>>>>> Jenine,
>>>>>
>>>>> thank you. This is sorta what I was coming to, once I got over
>>>>> the initial panic. I'll have to ask around to get contact info for
>>>>> the gentleman. We have never met.
>>>>>
>>>>> I did ask the people I talked to about what exactly the dog does.
>>>>> I got
>>>>> very specific answers that honestly scare me.
>>>>>
>>>>> Then this afternoon I realized that my transportation master plan
>>>>> is an epic fail for entirely other reasons. So I may very well
>>>>> have to find other transportation to this event, not because of
>>>>> the dog but because I can't be in two places at once. Honestly I
>>>>> need to be more diligent about putting things in the calendar.
>>>>> *sigh*
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks for the feedback. It truly does help.
>>>>> Julie
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> 11:47 AM, Jenine Stanley wrote:
>>>>>> Julie,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I think my questions would include, to those trusted sources first:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Describe why you feel this dog is aggressive, what kinds of
>>>>>> situations have you seen in which this dog exhibited aggressive
>>>>>> behavior?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Then I'd contact the person and just flat out ask, letting him
>>>>>> know that you've heard reports that his dog has some issues with
>>>>>> either aggression, or at the very least, making noise around
>>>>>> other dogs, which is sometimes mistaken for aggression. I'd let
>>>>>> him know that you are concerned about riding in a closed vehicle
>>>>>> with this dog and just want to know where things stand, not to
>>>>>> criticize him or the dog.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I think that's the fair way to handle it but whatever way you
>>>>>> choose, talking to the handler is going to have to be one of
>>>>>> those necessary evils.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Jenine Stanley
>>>>>> jeninems at wowway.com
>>>>>> http://www.twitter.com/jeninems
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org]
>>>>>> On Behalf Of Julie J.
>>>>>> Sent: Thursday, April 05, 2012 12:28 PM
>>>>>> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog
>>>>>> Users
>>>>>> Subject: [nagdu] another what would you do question
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Hello all!
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I have another what would you do in this situation question. I'm
>>>>>> going to apologize in advance because my information is going to
>>>>>> seem cryptic.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I am attending an event with other blind people and some guide
>>>>>> dogs. I am riding to this event in a van with one of the other
>>>>>> guide dogs.
>>>>>> I am
>>>>>> planning on taking Monty. I have heard from more than one trusted
>>>>>> source that the other guide dog is aggressive. I do not know the
>>>>>> other
>>>>>> guide dog handler at all. I do not know what program the dog is
>>>>>> from.
>>>>>> Not going to this event is not an option. getting there another
>>>>>> way is an extremely remote option that I'm looking into. Even if
>>>>>> I do find other transportation I will be in a small hotel for the
>>>>>> weekend where this other guide dog will also be.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> So what do I do? I've thought about leaving Monty, but there
>>>>>> won't be anyone available to care for him. I'd have to leave him
>>>>>> at the dog sitter's place. It also feels like leaving Monty is
>>>>>> allowing the other person to not take responsibility for his dog.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Is there some obvious solution that I'm overlooking? I know you
>>>>>> guys are awesome and will have great ideas.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> TIA
>>>>>> Julie
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
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