[nagdu] walking in to objects

Fri Apr 20 18:38:23 UTC 2012

Tracy,

Well, I totally agree with you about the importance of safety and what 
we *should* be able to expect from our guides when we bring them home...

I do think that paying attention to detail about a problem with a young, 
new dog, especially for a new first-time handler, can help wiwth 
diagnosis of the problem. Is is something strictly behavioral that can 
be addressed through training? Or is it something organic that prevents 
the dog from being able to work safely? In the first case, where 
addressing the issue through training could resolve the problem and 
enable the dog to continue in its career, then knowing more about the 
underlying causes of the problem can help with finding the solution. In 
the second case, where it is a health issue to is preventing the dog 
from following its training, then maybe a medical solution can be found. 
Or not.

If it is something organic, however, and there is no medical solution... 
Then it's time to make the hard decision before Hanna or Princess are 
really seriously injured.

I find the lack of follow up from the school to be troubling. Especially 
since these are not brushes or light bumps from lack of clearance but 
full speed whangings. Especially for a fast-walking kinda dog like a 
poodle. I love whizzing around with my little Ferrari dog, but... I 
would really hate to bang into anything at that speed! Ouch!

I just can't imagine what it must be like, having gone through the 
process and training and the start of team building to be on one's own 
trying to figure out if the dog is not going to work out after all. I 
think someone used the word cruel in a post a couple of days ago... I 
tend to agree wholeheartedly with that assessment. Ugh! Also, given this 
poodle's health problems... Again, that's a hardship that nobody needs. 
But the heartache of having to give up on a dog once you've become 
bonded with it and begun to trust it and work with it... I realize that 
making the hard decision needs to be done for the safety of both dog and 
handler sometimes, but... I just can't imagine how rough that would be.

There is no question, though, that safety has to be the primary concern. 
Our dogs will make mistakes, and they all have their quirks. But where 
it comes to safety from real physical harm... That has to be primary, 
above all else.

Tami

On 04/20/2012 05:26 AM, Tracy Carcione wrote:
> Guys, this seems like making excuses for bad guidework.  Unless Princess's
> eyes are unusual in some way, the sunniness or cloudiness shouldn't really
> matter.  I've had dogs for 30 years.  They've all been able to see poles.
> Amba ran me hard into a pole during training, once, and that's the only
> hard encounter with a pole I remember.  Ben is a sniff monster, and he
> will sometimes bump me into a pole, but he has already stopped to sniff
> it, so it's not hard.  And, come to think of it, after some sharp
> corrections, he doesn't do that any more. He has also brushed me against
> something sometimes when we were squeezing through a tight space, but
> again we were going slow, and it was just a brush.
>
> Taking a person around obstacles is what a guide dog is supposed to do.
> It's not an extra thing; it's part of the standard job description.
> Sometimes, it takes a couple bumps for the dog to get the clearance right
> for a new person, but, by the end of training/class, they should have it.
> They shouldn't be lamming their person into poles face first at full
> speed; that's inexcusable.
> None of my 6 dogs has been perfect.  None of them has read the "Seeing Eye
> dog" books.  They haven't been those perfect, mythical creatures whose
> only concern is my safety.  But they have been good enough, and they have
> taken the job seriously, even if some of them have wanted to multi-task.
> Ben is still sure that he can sniff and guide at the same time, despite my
> efforts to discourage him.  But, mainly, he actually can do both without
> getting me hurt.
> You have a right to expect your guide to take you around obstacles, stop
> at curbs, and refuse to step off platforms.  You have a right to expect
> your dog to be safe.  That's really the bottom line.  If the guide can't
> guide safely, then, if it can't be fixed PDQ, then the dog will have to
> find another job.
> I got a guide dog so I could get where I want to go faster and more
> smoothly.  If that's not the case, then I have a serious problem.
> Sometimes this seems harsh.  Sometimes I don't want to hear myself say
> that.  But the bottom line is I have to be safe with my dog.
> JMO.
> Tracy
>
>> Lea,
>> I don't believe the sun was out much over the weekend. It's definitely an
>> idea that I haven't thought of though and I'll make sure to keep this in
>> mind next time it happens.
>> Gary,
>> I think all dogs want to get on top of each other. It's probably some sort
>> of doggy/animal instinct; it probably happens to most male dogs though. We
>> have a little pet dog at home that loves to hump things lol
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf
>> Of Lea williams
>> Sent: Thursday, April 19, 2012 6:10 PM
>> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] walking in to objects
>>
>> Hannah, is this going on during a time when maybe it is really sunny and
>> the
>> sun is reflecting in such a way that maybe the poles are hard to see? i am
>> not sure if this could be it but i just thought that it could be an issue.
>> The light could be bouncing off the poles and making them almost
>> invisible.
>> IDK.
>>
>> On 4/19/12, GARY STEEVES<rainshadowmusic at shaw.ca>  wrote:
>>> Hi Hana:
>>>
>>> When I was training with Bogart, a poodle, we had a couple of
>>> situations where he ran me into things. Partly it was because his
>>> trainer was quite a bit smaller than me. Bogart had to learn my
>>> clearance. Wehn we were home there were a couple of things he
>>> misjudged. One was the corner of a bus top bench (right in the knee,
>>> ouch!). Another was a tap jutting out from a building. When it is
>>> raining Bogart likes to hug buildings to try to avoid getting us wet.
>>> That one would have been hard to see but we did rework it once. I'm
>>> trying to honestly think if he does other things. There is the odd
>>> brushing of things but I equate  that mostly to me not following as well
>> as I should.
>>> People are his issue. giving clearnace or, if we're behind  someone he
>>> will go up behind them and get me too close before he pulls out to
>>> pass which can have me stepping on them. Very embarrassing and if it
>>> is my girlfriend dangerous to my health. :)
>>>
>>> Certainly call them. There is nothing better than talking to a person
>>> where they can hear how you feel. I had just called my school to see
>>> if my idea of dealing with bogart's habit of mounting dogs in  off
>>> leash dog parks was suitable. It is really embarassing when he does
>>> this and other people get annoyed. People think it is a sexual thing
>>> when I'm pretty sure it is just a dominant thing. Not good either. Of
>>> course, it's usually macho guys with their macho type of dogs that allow
>> this to happen.
>>> Good luck
>>> Gary
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: Hannah Chadwick<sparklylicious at gmail.com>
>>> Date: Thursday, April 19, 2012 3:16 pm
>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] walking in to objects
>>> To: "'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'"
>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>>
>>>> I'm having trouble communicating with them it seems; at least via
>>>> email.
>>>> Guess I'll have to call them now...
>>>> The thing is, Princess is super smart and she knows when she is being
>>>> set up to do something; she does it well because she knows she'll get
>>>> lots of praises. I can't predict when she will walk me in to
>>>> something, and it seems to happen every two or so weeks. I can't seem
>>>> to find any pattern to this though, so my best guess is that she
>>>> can't figure out how much space to give so we can both go through
>>>> safely.
>>>> I am planning to do some pole work and give different contrasts and
>>>> see if there are certain things she cannot see.
>>>> Thank you, Hannah
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>>>> Behalf Of Lisa belville
>>>> Sent: Thursday, April 19, 2012 3:03 PM
>>>> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] walking in to objects
>>>>
>>>> Hmm, that is weird.  If I had the time and the correct training
>>>> support I'd have her work the polls in the familiar area until she
>>>> was working them in such a way that I wasn't being ran into them.
>>>> Then I'd gradually introduce new areas with similar arrangements and
>>>> be sure she treated those areas in the same way.  Some dogs are
>>>> better at generalizing than others, but this would be like her
>>>> stopping at a curb in one part of town and blowing it in another.
>>>> Something that would annoy me, to be sure, which is why I'd do as
>>>> others suggest and get the school involved.  Having Ex guide dog
>>>> trainers is wonderful, but someone from Pilot needs to see what's
>>>> happening, if nothing else than to make a note in your file.
>>>>
>>>> Lisa
>>>>
>>>> 1st Law of Procrastination: that which can be done will be done . . .
>>>> TOMORROW!!
>>>> Lisa Belville
>>>> missktlab1217 at frontier.com
>>>>
>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>> From: "Hannah Chadwick"<sparklylicious at gmail.com>
>>>> To: "'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog
>>>> Users'"
>>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>>> Sent: Thursday, April 19, 2012 4:22 PM
>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] walking in to objects
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> I'm willing to work things out in this working out process,
>>>> but I'm not
>>>>> willing to have either of us get seriously hurt. She seems to
>>>> do this in
>>>>> unfamiliar areas and that definitely is pretty bad because if
>>>> it's areas
>>>>> that I know well, then I could keep teaching her and she'll
>>>> improve. The
>>>>> thing is, I like to travel and explore places that are bnot
>>>> familiar and
>>>>> and
>>>>> those are the times I walk in to something, it's usually a
>>>> pole. I don't
>>>>> find anything unusual in places that Princess seems to have
>>>> trouble with.
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-
>>>> bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf
>>>>> Of Lisa belville
>>>>> Sent: Thursday, April 19, 2012 2:16 PM
>>>>> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] walking in to objects
>>>>>
>>>>> I know it sounds bad, but it is part of the working things out
>>>> process
>>>>> that
>>>>> both the dog and the person will go through.  I'm not
>>>> trying to dismiss
>>>>> the
>>>>> concerns at all, because I know how frustrating it is when you
>>>>> think everything is fine and the dog does something unexpected like
>>>> that.  I
>>>>> agree
>>>>> with others who suggest setting Princess up in your own
>>>> area.  Can you
>>>>> arrange things so that they look as much like the troubled
>>>> area as
>>>>> possible?
>>>>>
>>>>> if she is only doing it in this one specific place, it might
>>>> not be her so
>>>>> much as it is something odd looking about the place that she
>>>> doesn't like.
>>>>> It could be a difference in the color and texture of the
>>>> concrete or
>>>>> something else most of us clueless bipeds don't notice.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> 1st Law of Procrastination: that which can be done will be
>>>> done . . .
>>>>> TOMORROW!!
>>>>> Lisa Belville
>>>>> missktlab1217 at frontier.com
>>>>>
>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>> From: "Hannah Chadwick"<sparklylicious at gmail.com>
>>>>> To: "'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog
>>>> Users'">  <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>>>> Sent: Thursday, April 19, 2012 4:10 PM
>>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] walking in to objects
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> Lisa,
>>>>>> I'm going to have to disagree with you on this. Every couple
>>>> of weeks is
>>>>>> pretty bad... I understand that they are only dogs and they
>>>> have to have
>>>>>> room to work with, but the times Princess walked me in to
>>>> something are
>>>>>> when
>>>>>> there is a lot of room, and a lot of the times she does it in
>>>> unfamiliar>>  areas. Thank you for the suggestion, but I can't go
>>>> back to the places
>>>>>> she
>>>>>> walked me in to things because those are areas I don't often
>>>> go to; for
>>>>>> example a college I was visiting.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-
>>>> bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>>>>>> Behalf
>>>>>> Of Lisa belville
>>>>>> Sent: Thursday, April 19, 2012 1:56 PM
>>>>>> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog
>>>>>> Users
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] walking in to objects
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Well, every couple of weeks isn't really that bad.  Can
>>>> you arrange to
>>>>>> come
>>>>>> to the same place every day and rework it for a few minutes?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 1st Law of Procrastination: that which can be done will be
>>>> done . . .
>>>>>> TOMORROW!!
>>>>>> Lisa Belville
>>>>>> missktlab1217 at frontier.com
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>> From: "Hannah Chadwick"<sparklylicious at gmail.com>
>>>>>> To: "'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide
>>>> Dog Users'"
>>>>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, April 14, 2012 12:48 AM
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] walking in to objects
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I highly doubt it. I have a mobility instructor here who used
>>>> to be a
>>>>>>> guide
>>>>>>> dog trainer for over 10 years. He's suggested a few things
>>>> and told me,
>>>>>>> "it'll take time". I feel like running in to things should
>>>> not be
>>>>>>> occurring
>>>>>>> every couple of weeks...
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-
>>>> bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>>>>>>> Behalf
>>>>>>> Of Larry D. Keeler
>>>>>>> Sent: Friday, April 13, 2012 7:19 PM
>>>>>>> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide
>>>> Dog Users
>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] walking in to objects
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Can Pilot send a trainer out there?
>>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>> From: "Hannah Chadwick"<sparklylicious at gmail.com>
>>>>>>> To: "'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide
>>>> Dog Users'"
>>>>>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>>> Sent: Friday, April 13, 2012 8:59 PM
>>>>>>> Subject: [nagdu] walking in to objects
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Hey all,
>>>>>>>> I know that bonding can take up to a year, but I also know
>>>> that
>>>>>>>> Princess
>>>>>>>> shouldn't be walking me in to things. I honestly don't know
>>>> what to do
>>>>>>>> any
>>>>>>>> more because I don't feel like correcting her is enough and
>>>> that after
>>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>>> while she forgets about it altogether.
>>>>>>>> Today I went to visit the University of Santa Cruz and we
>>>> went on a
>>>>>>>> tour.
>>>>>>>> Princess for some reason walked me in to a pole and as
>>>> usually I
>>>>>>>> corrected
>>>>>>>> her. This has occurred a few times since I last posted
>>>> about it, and
>>>>>>>> it's
>>>>>>>> getting more difficult for me to trust her. I don't feel
>>>> safe walking
>>>>>>>> at
>>>>>>>> night or in the dark now, and it's a horrible feeling.
>>>>>>>> Any thoughts, suggestions, advice?
>>>>>>>> Best, Hannah
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
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>>
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