[nagdu] Diabetic alert dogs and how alert dogs are preventing a need for a guide dog!

[Julie J.]

How is this person who ordered a harness from Canada a problem?  For 
that matter what is the problem with being able to order service dog 
equipment from the internet?  I think it's a good thing.  It gives 
people more options and opportunities.  If this person then got her dog 
certified through a program, doesn't that prove that it was indeed 
trained and a service dog in the first place?

I'm getting the impression that a lot of people have a feeling of 
superiority about dogs from programs.  there is nothing magical about 
guide dog programs. There's nothing magical about training dogs in 
general.  It's time consuming and labor intensive, but it's not rocket 
science.  anyone with some decent amount of spare time and some serious 
dedication can do it.

It's the training that makes the difference.  I'm not sure how else to 
say that.  Training.

It's like people are offended by the audacity of some disabled people 
who venture out on their own, challenging the system of charity that's 
been around for ages.  Some disabled folks don't want to go to a service 
dog program.  Maybe it takes too much time away from their other 
responsibilities.  Maybe it costs too much, especially true for other 
types of service dogs.  Maybe the available programs don't meet their 
needs.  Maybe other disabilities interfere with the ability to get a dog 
from a program.  Perhaps they just love to train dogs and want the 
challenge and reward that comes with training their own dog.  There are 
a lot of different reasons for not going to a program to get a service 
dog.  There is respect for the choice to attend whichever established 
program a person feels will best meet their needs.  Why is there no 
respect for choosing to not attend a program?

It comes down to the training.  If a dog is well behaved and is hardly 
noticeable when out in public, why does it matter who trained the dog?  
As long as the dog has been trained isn't that the important part?

If a dog isn't trained appropriately or is having a bad day, then that 
is an issue and needs to be addressed.  I am absolutely 110% in 
agreement that dogs in places where pets are not allowed need to be 
trained to a level that allows that dog to blend seamlessly into the 
background, doing what it needs to do without being a bother to other 
patrons in the establishment.   Where I have a problem is this thinking 
that nonprogram dogs are all ill behaved beasts and all program trained 
dogs are perfect angels.  this is absolutely not the case.

So can we please get past this hang up with where the dog came from and 
move on to the important part about whether or not the dog is behaving 
appropriately?

Julie








On 11/9/2012 8:56 AM, Melissa R Green wrote:
> I know a person who ordered a harness from canada, and got a a school 
> to certify her pet dog as a service dog.  I did a search online and 
> you can buy a harness.  My trainer and I also did a search over the 
> phone and she was surprised that harnesses are being sold online.
> this person might be ledgit.  But there are those who aren't ledgit.  
> Dar brings up a good question.  How does a blind person handle a 
> situation like this?
> Especially, if anyone can by a harness or a vest online.  Like the 
> person I spoke of in the beginning of my message.
>
> -----Original Message----- From: d m gina
> Sent: Thursday, November 08, 2012 2:06 PM
> To: nagdu at nfbnet.org
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Diabetic alert dogs and how alert dogs are 
> preventing a need for a guide dog!
>
> Hello,
> yes it does matter that the person have some kind of proof their dog is
> a service dog.
> What does happen when I take a stand because their dog bit mine and I
> would press charges, who wins there, I have my card, I have the collar
> that says seeing eye, I have a leash that says seeing eye, and I have
> the harness that says seeing eye.
> What makes me angry is Joe blow comes in with his dog only a collar,
> and he gets in, where I have to have my dog dressed in its outfit to
> work him and I am proud of this.
> I am just asking from a blind persons view I wouldn't know if the
> person was telling the truth or not.
> I for the most part bind my own business, unless I hear dogs groweling
> because they don't like set dog.
> Who would I stand up for, if both persons claim they have service dogs.
> I walk with no shame at all, that my dog was trained, I don't have to
> studder and walk around the issue.
> As what happened over the weekend.
> I asked my husband if he knew this person and he said no, he couldn't
> even remember who the person was that had the dog.
> It is just interesting to me, to learn as working with nagdu I want to
> help spread the good of this organization and can't do well if I don't
> know the exact steps to take, when I can't even tell if a dog is a
> service dog or not.
> Oh well, I will stay a happy camper, work my dog, and just be the Dar 
> I know.
> I will let others decide what is good and what isn't.
> My specialtys can be used for other organizations.
> It is ok for me to say I couldn't tell if the set dog is a service dog 
> or not.
> As long as I take care of me that is all that matters.
> We the team are doing quite well, three months into the program from
> seeing eye.
> he rocked at the convention, keeping himself as a little gentleman 
> should.
> I did use the gentle leader at the dining room table so he wouldn't try
> to dive for food.
> One time he dove for a peace of paper, as I did ask the waitress what
> he was trying to go for.
> he thought it was food loll.
> I understand, I didn't bring his food so he had to wait until he got
> home he thought smile.
> the little bowl I took I was starting to wonder if the two cups of food
> would fit.
> It did, and I was pleased.
> the more we are a team the better.
> he is starting to remember the persons car or van we travel in, and
> that is good.
> We went threw a parking lot, on our own where he found the correct car
> on his own.
> The driver and the grocery guy walked ahead.
> I am so proud of this boy, I could write forever.
> Thanks for asking.
>
> Original message:
>> Dar,
>> If I read your post right, you are concerned with the fact that someone
>> brings a dog into a place where you're at.  You are totally blind and 
>> are
>> worried about if that dog will scare the crap out of you - it growls
>> menacinginly at your dog or it actually tries to attack your dog.  Is 
>> this
>> correct?
>
>> I hear you on this and your concerns are very valid.  I've been a 
>> guide dog
>> user for a very long time and have been the target of several attacks 
>> on my
>> dogs over the years.  My limited vision doesn't always see that 
>> there's a
>> menacing dog nearby but I'll hear it if it snarls at my dog.  It does 
>> scare
>> the crap out of me.
>
>> What I find is that many people don't care if their dog is socialized 
>> for
>> public access - I'm talking about pets.  People don't bother to train 
>> their
>> dogs to walk nice on a leash. In earlier times, my dogs have been 
>> accosted
>> by nasty pets that are not under control by their humans.  Now that same
>> problem remains the same only now there are people who claim hidden
>> disability and their dog is a service dog.  They may really have a
>> disability but they do not know that they have standards that their 
>> dog must
>> adhere to.  the humans don't give a rat's behind if their dog bothers a
>> working guide dog or service dog walking along doing its job.  This is a
>> huge problem in the city where people have to walk their dogs and 
>> they have
>> all these little ankle biters.
>
>> Now, add to this mix the past lax rules of ADA which allowed for 
>> anything
>> someone called a "service animal".  The owners have had no training on
>> proper ettiquete with having a dog in public where pets aren't 
>> allowed. It
>> has taken us too many years - 20 years - to finally tighten up the ADA
>> rules.  The horse is out of the barn and now we want to shut the door.
>> Well, too late now - it's out.  And there are problems for us with
>> litgitimate guide and service dogs that actually are trained to 
>> perform a
>> task to mitigate our disabilities.  And there's no real way to stop the
>> abuse of ADA.  The ADA prevents this by not allowing the having to show
>> proof via ID cards, vests, whatever.  This won't work anyway because 
>> people
>> can always make IDs or buy vests on the Internet.
>
>> I think this all boils down to educating businesses to the ADA and it's
>> rules concerning service dogs.  We have to educate them to know that 
>> they
>> are within their rights to kick out individuals who do not control their
>> dogs properly.  They have to realize that they have this right and 
>> will not
>> be sued.  If they are, they think they'll lose and that will cost 
>> them lots
>> of money.  Business owners are afraid of violating the ADA and put up 
>> with
>> the problem children.  And, of course, there are those business 
>> people who
>> don't care about ADA and try to deny us our rights of access.
>
>> A vest or ID doesn't make a dog a real service dog and it really doesn't
>> make sense to rail on that issue.  We really need to deal with the HUGE
>> issue of ill behaved dogs in public and what can we do about that issue.
>
>> BTW, hope the new dog is working out well for you.
>
>> Lyn and Landon
>> "Education creates tolerance towards diversity."
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "d m gina" <dmgina at samobile.net>
>> To: <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Thursday, November 08, 2012 7:50 AM
>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Diabetic alert dogs and how alert dogs are 
>> preventing a
>> need for a guide dog!
>
>
>> Hello,
>> Thanks for sharing, and yes even my guide lets me know if I am to low.
>> My question never got answered for me to be satisfied.
>> As a total, and this strange dog comes into play where the person says
>> it is a diabetic dog, nothing on the dog to indicate that the dog is a
>> service dog, just a person coming into the room with a chain collar on
>> dog claiming that it is a diabetic dog.
>> No coat of any kind no nothing.
>> So if a total was trying to make sure that we didn't have anyone just
>> bringing in their pet how would we know.
>> It is obvious we didn't know at this convention.
>> We as guide dog users are trying to make sure we can keep working our
>> dogs for as long as possible with out any more rules to the game.
>> Where I am not impressed that my neighbor can put a collar on his
>> shepherd and claim it is a service dog a diabetic dog.
>> I hope I made myself clear this time.
>> Now my neighbor isn't claiming this, just follow the thread of writing
>> thanks,
>> Original message:
>>> Hi gang,
>
>>> I will only speak to diabetic alert dogs, since there seem to be some
>>> questions. There are numerous programs that train diabetic alert 
>>> dogs and
>>> even owner-trainers. They range from the rather large and very
>>> well-established Dogs 4 Diabetics (d4d) in Concord, CA to smaller/newer
>>> programs to owner-trained dogs. d4d is an ADI member program. ADI is 
>>> the
>>> equivalent of IGDF, so d4d is very highly regarded in general. Some 
>>> of the
>>> smaller/newer programs do a better job than others, so those are
>>> buyer-beware. Really, though, diabetic alerting is largely a matter of
>>> fairly straightforward scent training...so it doesn't take that long 
>>> and
>>> many competent people have decided to train their own dogs. That can 
>>> be a
>>> just fine option, too. Almost everyone from d4d to owner-trainer uses
>>> fairly similar standards. The dogs are trained to alert their person 
>>> when
>>> the person's blood glucose begins to drop too low (60-70, normal is at
>>> least 80). If the dog
>>>  can tell the person who is at 65, the person should not be too
>>> incapacitated at that point to do the things they need to do to help
>>> themselves raise their blood glucose. This is especially critical 
>>> when the
>>> diabetic (usually type 1 diabetic, btw, but not ALWAYS) is asleep.
>>> Diabetics are at serious risk of a phenomenon called "Dead in Bed". 
>>> Their
>>> numbers get too low while they sleep and they slip into a coma and are
>>> dead or confused and unable to help themselves and can die even if 
>>> "awake"
>>> in the morning...no sugar is reaching their brain and so they can't 
>>> think
>>> straight to drink juice or swallow glucose tablets or whatever and 
>>> that's
>>> it. Very sad and scary. The beauty here is that a human's sleep 
>>> cycle is
>>> quite long...multiple hours. A dog's sleep cycle is FAR shorter...I 
>>> want
>>> to say about 90 minutes or so. This means that the dog is mostly 
>>> awake and
>>> can smell the low on their person and wake them up to tell them at many
>>> different points
>>>  throughout the night. The dogs are generally taught to alert to the 
>>> lows
>>> and not really the highs because the highs are SO easy to 
>>> smell...even you
>>> or I can smell it, no problem. The ketones smell really sweet when 
>>> someone
>>> is running high, so the diabetic's breath will reek! Dogs often will 
>>> start
>>> to alert the highs once they get that their job is to tell their human
>>> when they're smelling funny, but dogs who are rewarded too often for
>>> alerting to high often start to only alert to high because it's so easy
>>> for them to smell. What we really NEED the dog alerting to is the lows,
>>> though, so can't let the dogs get lazy and stop smelling for the 
>>> harder to
>>> catch lows!
>
>>> Long story short - there are very legitimate glucose level alerting 
>>> dogs
>>> for diabetics. I have no idea if the St. Bernard was one - that's a 
>>> whole
>>> different ball of wax that I won't touch - but at least now everyone 
>>> knows
>>> more about the dogs for diabetics.
>
>>> Oh, I should mention since I think my email makes it sound like maybe
>>> these dogs only need to be home use - that is far from the case. The 
>>> dogs
>>> will also do things like ride close enough to someone driving and be 
>>> able
>>> to alert the person in case their sugar goes out of whack while they 
>>> are
>>> driving. (I'm sure everyone can see how this is a useful service!) A 
>>> dog
>>> may sit under a programmer's desk at work and alert them that they're
>>> low...big bonus for everyone since when sugar goes low, brain function
>>> declines and suddenly you've got a programmer probably making all 
>>> kinds of
>>> errors. All sorts of things like that, so the dogs do need public 
>>> access
>>> and protection just like guide dogs and other kinds of more commonly
>>> recognized service dogs.
>
>>> Cool to note is that d4d actually gets a number of their dogs from none
>>> other than the nearby GDB. It's a good career change. Often a dog that
>>> won't make the cut as a guide can make a great alert dog. I'm sure 
>>> you all
>>> know how big the percentage is of guide dog handlers who need guides
>>> because of diabetes complications, so actually getting a well-trained
>>> glucose level alert dog into the hands of a young diabetic is a 
>>> wonderful
>>> way to help them keep their numbers MUCH better controlled and 
>>> postpone or
>>> even prevent that person from ever needing a Guide due to diabetes
>>> complications. I think this is great as long as it's done well, 
>>> ethically,
>>> safely, etc!
>
>>> Dogs rock. It's people I sometimes wonder about. ;) j/k (sort of!)
>
>>> Dailyah Rudek
>>> The ProBoneO Program, Director
>
>
>
>
>>>> ________________________________
>>>> From: Julie J. <julielj at neb.rr.com>
>>>> To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
>>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>>> Sent: Monday, November 5, 2012 4:21 AM
>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] In question please
>
>>>> Yes, there are dogs that can alert to changes in blood sugar levels.
>>>> There is even a program that trains this type of dog. I'm remembering
>>>> it's in the northwest, Washington or Oregon? Of course the dog 
>>>> wouldn't
>>>> have had to come from this or any program to be trained to alert to 
>>>> the
>>>> guy's medical condition.
>
>
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>
>> -- 
>> --Dar
>> skype: dmgina23
>>   FB: dmgina
>> www.twitter.com/dmgina
>> every saint has a past
>> every sinner has a future
>
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>
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