[nagdu] who can legally have guide harnesses?
Lyn Gwizdak
linda.gwizdak at cox.net
Fri Nov 9 21:08:43 UTC 2012
I think the schools get their panties in a wad over people getting harnesses
on eBay and such is because the harnesses have school names stamped into the
straps. I don't think anyone cares who has Julie's harnesses or others that
are made for people with guide dogs that are owner-trained. The ones with
school names on them are considered school property loaned to us while we
have our dogs.
I know that in the White Cane Laws, there is a part about it being illegal
for people other than blind folks to use a white cane like the ones we use.
Lyn and Landon
"Education creates tolerance towards diversity."
----- Original Message -----
From: "Buddy Brannan" <buddy at brannan.name>
To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
<nagdu at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Friday, November 09, 2012 10:32 AM
Subject: Re: [nagdu] Diabetic alert dogs and how alert dogs are preventinga
need for a guide dog!
> Well said, Julie.
>
> I've said it for years. There's absolutely nothing magic about guide dog
> gear. Nothing. There's no reason it can't be bought and sold like anything
> else. To treat it as though it were somehow special, or owning such
> equipment were somehow wrong, or it should be regulated like tobacco or
> firearms or marijuana is just ridiculous. Guide and service dog equipment
> doesn't transfer any specific rights or abilities to a dog. Indeed, it
> isn't even required that a service dog have any specific equipment. It's
> the training that counts. It isn't where the dog was trained, or by whom.
> Believe me, I've seen some pretty awfully behaved dogs come out of
> programs. Not the program's fault usually, because as we all know, it's
> our job to keep that training up, and keep the expectations we have of our
> dogs and ourselves high.
>
> The guide and service dog programs are at least partially to blame for the
> perpetuation of this attitude that there's something magic or special
> about guide dog gear. If you ask, most of them won't tell you who makes
> their gear. Why not? Is it some deep dark trade secret, that, if it falls
> into the wrong hands, civilization as we know it will end? Why are
> trainers so horrified that gear can be had from somewhere other than from
> their controlled access to it? Some will even incorrectly state to you, in
> class, that your dog is not legally allowed if it doesn't have its harness
> on. (Which harness, by the way,comes from the school, who gets it from
> whatever mysterious source it gets them from). Of course, this is all
> nonsense.
>
> All of this really needs to stop.
>
> As for a certifying body, it sounds like a great idea, but I have so many
> problems with it, I don't know where to start. Most of these surround who
> will do the certifying, and how will the rights of owner trainers be
> protected. Also who will pay for this thing.
>
> I don't deny that there's a problem with fake service dogs. Of course
> there is. There are no easy solutions. The best solution though is to be
> sure that business owners are educated as to both their rights and their
> responsibilities. Also, we ourselves need to be educated to our rights and
> responsibilities. Both sides need to understand that our right to be
> accompanied by a service dog is not absolute. We also need to understand
> that we have the right to be accompanied by a task trained service animal;
> it is not the animal who has the right to public access. I beat this drum
> often because it's an extremely important distinction.
>
> FWIW, I regularly use a third party harness on my program trained guide
> dog. There are a couple reasons for this, none of which have a thing in
> the world to do with the program or the training.
>
> Now someone tell me about this Canadian company.
> --
> Buddy Brannan, KB5ELV - Erie, PA
> Phone: (814) 860-3194 or 888-75-BUDDY
>
>
>
> On Nov 9, 2012, at 11:15 AM, Julie J. <julielj at neb.rr.com> wrote:
>
>> How is this person who ordered a harness from Canada a problem? For that
>> matter what is the problem with being able to order service dog equipment
>> from the internet? I think it's a good thing. It gives people more
>> options and opportunities. If this person then got her dog certified
>> through a program, doesn't that prove that it was indeed trained and a
>> service dog in the first place?
>>
>> I'm getting the impression that a lot of people have a feeling of
>> superiority about dogs from programs. there is nothing magical about
>> guide dog programs. There's nothing magical about training dogs in
>> general. It's time consuming and labor intensive, but it's not rocket
>> science. anyone with some decent amount of spare time and some serious
>> dedication can do it.
>>
>> It's the training that makes the difference. I'm not sure how else to
>> say that. Training.
>>
>> It's like people are offended by the audacity of some disabled people who
>> venture out on their own, challenging the system of charity that's been
>> around for ages. Some disabled folks don't want to go to a service dog
>> program. Maybe it takes too much time away from their other
>> responsibilities. Maybe it costs too much, especially true for other
>> types of service dogs. Maybe the available programs don't meet their
>> needs. Maybe other disabilities interfere with the ability to get a dog
>> from a program. Perhaps they just love to train dogs and want the
>> challenge and reward that comes with training their own dog. There are a
>> lot of different reasons for not going to a program to get a service dog.
>> There is respect for the choice to attend whichever established program a
>> person feels will best meet their needs. Why is there no respect for
>> choosing to not attend a program?
>>
>> It comes down to the training. If a dog is well behaved and is hardly
>> noticeable when out in public, why does it matter who trained the dog?
>> As long as the dog has been trained isn't that the important part?
>>
>> If a dog isn't trained appropriately or is having a bad day, then that is
>> an issue and needs to be addressed. I am absolutely 110% in agreement
>> that dogs in places where pets are not allowed need to be trained to a
>> level that allows that dog to blend seamlessly into the background, doing
>> what it needs to do without being a bother to other patrons in the
>> establishment. Where I have a problem is this thinking that nonprogram
>> dogs are all ill behaved beasts and all program trained dogs are perfect
>> angels. this is absolutely not the case.
>>
>> So can we please get past this hang up with where the dog came from and
>> move on to the important part about whether or not the dog is behaving
>> appropriately?
>>
>> Julie
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On 11/9/2012 8:56 AM, Melissa R Green wrote:
>>> I know a person who ordered a harness from canada, and got a a school to
>>> certify her pet dog as a service dog. I did a search online and you can
>>> buy a harness. My trainer and I also did a search over the phone and
>>> she was surprised that harnesses are being sold online.
>>> this person might be ledgit. But there are those who aren't ledgit.
>>> Dar brings up a good question. How does a blind person handle a
>>> situation like this?
>>> Especially, if anyone can by a harness or a vest online. Like the
>>> person I spoke of in the beginning of my message.
>>>
>>> -----Original Message----- From: d m gina
>>> Sent: Thursday, November 08, 2012 2:06 PM
>>> To: nagdu at nfbnet.org
>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Diabetic alert dogs and how alert dogs are
>>> preventing a need for a guide dog!
>>>
>>> Hello,
>>> yes it does matter that the person have some kind of proof their dog is
>>> a service dog.
>>> What does happen when I take a stand because their dog bit mine and I
>>> would press charges, who wins there, I have my card, I have the collar
>>> that says seeing eye, I have a leash that says seeing eye, and I have
>>> the harness that says seeing eye.
>>> What makes me angry is Joe blow comes in with his dog only a collar,
>>> and he gets in, where I have to have my dog dressed in its outfit to
>>> work him and I am proud of this.
>>> I am just asking from a blind persons view I wouldn't know if the
>>> person was telling the truth or not.
>>> I for the most part bind my own business, unless I hear dogs groweling
>>> because they don't like set dog.
>>> Who would I stand up for, if both persons claim they have service dogs.
>>> I walk with no shame at all, that my dog was trained, I don't have to
>>> studder and walk around the issue.
>>> As what happened over the weekend.
>>> I asked my husband if he knew this person and he said no, he couldn't
>>> even remember who the person was that had the dog.
>>> It is just interesting to me, to learn as working with nagdu I want to
>>> help spread the good of this organization and can't do well if I don't
>>> know the exact steps to take, when I can't even tell if a dog is a
>>> service dog or not.
>>> Oh well, I will stay a happy camper, work my dog, and just be the Dar I
>>> know.
>>> I will let others decide what is good and what isn't.
>>> My specialtys can be used for other organizations.
>>> It is ok for me to say I couldn't tell if the set dog is a service dog
>>> or not.
>>> As long as I take care of me that is all that matters.
>>> We the team are doing quite well, three months into the program from
>>> seeing eye.
>>> he rocked at the convention, keeping himself as a little gentleman
>>> should.
>>> I did use the gentle leader at the dining room table so he wouldn't try
>>> to dive for food.
>>> One time he dove for a peace of paper, as I did ask the waitress what
>>> he was trying to go for.
>>> he thought it was food loll.
>>> I understand, I didn't bring his food so he had to wait until he got
>>> home he thought smile.
>>> the little bowl I took I was starting to wonder if the two cups of food
>>> would fit.
>>> It did, and I was pleased.
>>> the more we are a team the better.
>>> he is starting to remember the persons car or van we travel in, and
>>> that is good.
>>> We went threw a parking lot, on our own where he found the correct car
>>> on his own.
>>> The driver and the grocery guy walked ahead.
>>> I am so proud of this boy, I could write forever.
>>> Thanks for asking.
>>>
>>> Original message:
>>>> Dar,
>>>> If I read your post right, you are concerned with the fact that someone
>>>> brings a dog into a place where you're at. You are totally blind and
>>>> are
>>>> worried about if that dog will scare the crap out of you - it growls
>>>> menacinginly at your dog or it actually tries to attack your dog. Is
>>>> this
>>>> correct?
>>>
>>>> I hear you on this and your concerns are very valid. I've been a guide
>>>> dog
>>>> user for a very long time and have been the target of several attacks
>>>> on my
>>>> dogs over the years. My limited vision doesn't always see that there's
>>>> a
>>>> menacing dog nearby but I'll hear it if it snarls at my dog. It does
>>>> scare
>>>> the crap out of me.
>>>
>>>> What I find is that many people don't care if their dog is socialized
>>>> for
>>>> public access - I'm talking about pets. People don't bother to train
>>>> their
>>>> dogs to walk nice on a leash. In earlier times, my dogs have been
>>>> accosted
>>>> by nasty pets that are not under control by their humans. Now that
>>>> same
>>>> problem remains the same only now there are people who claim hidden
>>>> disability and their dog is a service dog. They may really have a
>>>> disability but they do not know that they have standards that their dog
>>>> must
>>>> adhere to. the humans don't give a rat's behind if their dog bothers a
>>>> working guide dog or service dog walking along doing its job. This is
>>>> a
>>>> huge problem in the city where people have to walk their dogs and they
>>>> have
>>>> all these little ankle biters.
>>>
>>>> Now, add to this mix the past lax rules of ADA which allowed for
>>>> anything
>>>> someone called a "service animal". The owners have had no training on
>>>> proper ettiquete with having a dog in public where pets aren't allowed.
>>>> It
>>>> has taken us too many years - 20 years - to finally tighten up the ADA
>>>> rules. The horse is out of the barn and now we want to shut the door.
>>>> Well, too late now - it's out. And there are problems for us with
>>>> litgitimate guide and service dogs that actually are trained to perform
>>>> a
>>>> task to mitigate our disabilities. And there's no real way to stop the
>>>> abuse of ADA. The ADA prevents this by not allowing the having to show
>>>> proof via ID cards, vests, whatever. This won't work anyway because
>>>> people
>>>> can always make IDs or buy vests on the Internet.
>>>
>>>> I think this all boils down to educating businesses to the ADA and it's
>>>> rules concerning service dogs. We have to educate them to know that
>>>> they
>>>> are within their rights to kick out individuals who do not control
>>>> their
>>>> dogs properly. They have to realize that they have this right and will
>>>> not
>>>> be sued. If they are, they think they'll lose and that will cost them
>>>> lots
>>>> of money. Business owners are afraid of violating the ADA and put up
>>>> with
>>>> the problem children. And, of course, there are those business people
>>>> who
>>>> don't care about ADA and try to deny us our rights of access.
>>>
>>>> A vest or ID doesn't make a dog a real service dog and it really
>>>> doesn't
>>>> make sense to rail on that issue. We really need to deal with the HUGE
>>>> issue of ill behaved dogs in public and what can we do about that
>>>> issue.
>>>
>>>> BTW, hope the new dog is working out well for you.
>>>
>>>> Lyn and Landon
>>>> "Education creates tolerance towards diversity."
>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>> From: "d m gina" <dmgina at samobile.net>
>>>> To: <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>>> Sent: Thursday, November 08, 2012 7:50 AM
>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Diabetic alert dogs and how alert dogs are
>>>> preventing a
>>>> need for a guide dog!
>>>
>>>
>>>> Hello,
>>>> Thanks for sharing, and yes even my guide lets me know if I am to low.
>>>> My question never got answered for me to be satisfied.
>>>> As a total, and this strange dog comes into play where the person says
>>>> it is a diabetic dog, nothing on the dog to indicate that the dog is a
>>>> service dog, just a person coming into the room with a chain collar on
>>>> dog claiming that it is a diabetic dog.
>>>> No coat of any kind no nothing.
>>>> So if a total was trying to make sure that we didn't have anyone just
>>>> bringing in their pet how would we know.
>>>> It is obvious we didn't know at this convention.
>>>> We as guide dog users are trying to make sure we can keep working our
>>>> dogs for as long as possible with out any more rules to the game.
>>>> Where I am not impressed that my neighbor can put a collar on his
>>>> shepherd and claim it is a service dog a diabetic dog.
>>>> I hope I made myself clear this time.
>>>> Now my neighbor isn't claiming this, just follow the thread of writing
>>>> thanks,
>>>> Original message:
>>>>> Hi gang,
>>>
>>>>> I will only speak to diabetic alert dogs, since there seem to be some
>>>>> questions. There are numerous programs that train diabetic alert dogs
>>>>> and
>>>>> even owner-trainers. They range from the rather large and very
>>>>> well-established Dogs 4 Diabetics (d4d) in Concord, CA to
>>>>> smaller/newer
>>>>> programs to owner-trained dogs. d4d is an ADI member program. ADI is
>>>>> the
>>>>> equivalent of IGDF, so d4d is very highly regarded in general. Some of
>>>>> the
>>>>> smaller/newer programs do a better job than others, so those are
>>>>> buyer-beware. Really, though, diabetic alerting is largely a matter of
>>>>> fairly straightforward scent training...so it doesn't take that long
>>>>> and
>>>>> many competent people have decided to train their own dogs. That can
>>>>> be a
>>>>> just fine option, too. Almost everyone from d4d to owner-trainer uses
>>>>> fairly similar standards. The dogs are trained to alert their person
>>>>> when
>>>>> the person's blood glucose begins to drop too low (60-70, normal is at
>>>>> least 80). If the dog
>>>>> can tell the person who is at 65, the person should not be too
>>>>> incapacitated at that point to do the things they need to do to help
>>>>> themselves raise their blood glucose. This is especially critical when
>>>>> the
>>>>> diabetic (usually type 1 diabetic, btw, but not ALWAYS) is asleep.
>>>>> Diabetics are at serious risk of a phenomenon called "Dead in Bed".
>>>>> Their
>>>>> numbers get too low while they sleep and they slip into a coma and are
>>>>> dead or confused and unable to help themselves and can die even if
>>>>> "awake"
>>>>> in the morning...no sugar is reaching their brain and so they can't
>>>>> think
>>>>> straight to drink juice or swallow glucose tablets or whatever and
>>>>> that's
>>>>> it. Very sad and scary. The beauty here is that a human's sleep cycle
>>>>> is
>>>>> quite long...multiple hours. A dog's sleep cycle is FAR shorter...I
>>>>> want
>>>>> to say about 90 minutes or so. This means that the dog is mostly awake
>>>>> and
>>>>> can smell the low on their person and wake them up to tell them at
>>>>> many
>>>>> different points
>>>>> throughout the night. The dogs are generally taught to alert to the
>>>>> lows
>>>>> and not really the highs because the highs are SO easy to smell...even
>>>>> you
>>>>> or I can smell it, no problem. The ketones smell really sweet when
>>>>> someone
>>>>> is running high, so the diabetic's breath will reek! Dogs often will
>>>>> start
>>>>> to alert the highs once they get that their job is to tell their human
>>>>> when they're smelling funny, but dogs who are rewarded too often for
>>>>> alerting to high often start to only alert to high because it's so
>>>>> easy
>>>>> for them to smell. What we really NEED the dog alerting to is the
>>>>> lows,
>>>>> though, so can't let the dogs get lazy and stop smelling for the
>>>>> harder to
>>>>> catch lows!
>>>
>>>>> Long story short - there are very legitimate glucose level alerting
>>>>> dogs
>>>>> for diabetics. I have no idea if the St. Bernard was one - that's a
>>>>> whole
>>>>> different ball of wax that I won't touch - but at least now everyone
>>>>> knows
>>>>> more about the dogs for diabetics.
>>>
>>>>> Oh, I should mention since I think my email makes it sound like maybe
>>>>> these dogs only need to be home use - that is far from the case. The
>>>>> dogs
>>>>> will also do things like ride close enough to someone driving and be
>>>>> able
>>>>> to alert the person in case their sugar goes out of whack while they
>>>>> are
>>>>> driving. (I'm sure everyone can see how this is a useful service!) A
>>>>> dog
>>>>> may sit under a programmer's desk at work and alert them that they're
>>>>> low...big bonus for everyone since when sugar goes low, brain function
>>>>> declines and suddenly you've got a programmer probably making all
>>>>> kinds of
>>>>> errors. All sorts of things like that, so the dogs do need public
>>>>> access
>>>>> and protection just like guide dogs and other kinds of more commonly
>>>>> recognized service dogs.
>>>
>>>>> Cool to note is that d4d actually gets a number of their dogs from
>>>>> none
>>>>> other than the nearby GDB. It's a good career change. Often a dog that
>>>>> won't make the cut as a guide can make a great alert dog. I'm sure you
>>>>> all
>>>>> know how big the percentage is of guide dog handlers who need guides
>>>>> because of diabetes complications, so actually getting a well-trained
>>>>> glucose level alert dog into the hands of a young diabetic is a
>>>>> wonderful
>>>>> way to help them keep their numbers MUCH better controlled and
>>>>> postpone or
>>>>> even prevent that person from ever needing a Guide due to diabetes
>>>>> complications. I think this is great as long as it's done well,
>>>>> ethically,
>>>>> safely, etc!
>>>
>>>>> Dogs rock. It's people I sometimes wonder about. ;) j/k (sort of!)
>>>
>>>>> Dailyah Rudek
>>>>> The ProBoneO Program, Director
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>>> ________________________________
>>>>>> From: Julie J. <julielj at neb.rr.com>
>>>>>> To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
>>>>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>> Sent: Monday, November 5, 2012 4:21 AM
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] In question please
>>>
>>>>>> Yes, there are dogs that can alert to changes in blood sugar levels.
>>>>>> There is even a program that trains this type of dog. I'm remembering
>>>>>> it's in the northwest, Washington or Oregon? Of course the dog
>>>>>> wouldn't
>>>>>> have had to come from this or any program to be trained to alert to
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> guy's medical condition.
>>>
>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> nagdu mailing list
>>>>> nagdu at nfbnet.org
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>>>
>>>> --
>>>> --Dar
>>>> skype: dmgina23
>>>> FB: dmgina
>>>> www.twitter.com/dmgina
>>>> every saint has a past
>>>> every sinner has a future
>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>
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>>
>>
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>
>
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