[nagdu] stress, how much is too much?

Tue Nov 13 13:26:54 UTC 2012

Hi Ramona.
I'm sorry to hear about your problem.  It sounds a lot like what happened
with my shepherd Nestor, who basically had a nervous breakdown trying to
work in New York City.
I doubt Ishmael is whipping you around corners because he's mad at you.  I
don't think dog minds work like that.  He may, however, be trying to get
away from an unpleasant situation.
My Nestor tried to go fast to get the scary work over as soon as possible.
 I tried encouraging him gently to slow down and take it easy.  I'm sorry
to say that it didn't work, and he had to retire.  I made the decision
when one day he was rushing a bit and fell off the subway platform edge. 
I managed not to fall in with him, but I couldn't pull him up, either.  An
unknown hero had to come and grab him for me.
A dog who's really stressed is not thinking about really guiding
carefully; he's trying to get out of the stressful situation.
Is there anything particular about the places Ishmael seems stressed? 
Could he have stepped on some electricity, like a grate?  Is it especially
noisy?  Did something scary happen?  Or is it becoming generalized to many
places?
Can you get a trainer to come out and have a look?
I had a trainer come out and look at Nessie, but I didn't want to hear
what he had to say, which was to retire him.  I made him give me some
suggestions instead, and tried them for a while, until it became plain to
me that we weren't safe anymore.
I hope you can find a happier solution, but sometimes retirement is the
only good answer.  And I must say Nessie and I were both happier, once we
got through the retirement process.  He didn't have to do scary things
anymore, and I had a new dog who was confident and careful.
Good luck.
If I can be any help, feel free to contact me offlist.  carcione at access.net
Tracy

> i'm so gladd I stumbled across this particular thred.
> for the last week, ishmael has been showing odd behaivier. he hasn't
> been paying attention when we're walking which has caused me to run in
> to something, stumble or almost fall. when i correct him he has
> started pulling or lunging away from me like he's trying to run away
> from me. it hurts my back when he does this and throws me off
> ballence. a few times he's whipped me around corners at breakneck
> spead and I know he's doing this because he's mad at me. he only does
> it right after i've corrected him. recently i've had to move up to
> harsher corrections because the lighter vurble corrections and one
> handed corrections stopped working. he's stressed, he has to be, but I
> don't know what to do about it. some days i get the feeling he just
> doesn't even want to work for me. everyone talks about how there dogs
> are so excited to be able to work they practicly jump on to there
> harnesses, ishmael has never done that and more often than not turns
> his head away from the harness, someone help me. i'm at my whits end.
>
> On 11/12/12, Julie J. <julielj at neb.rr.com> wrote:
>> Robert,
>>
>> That's it exactly.  a bit of stress is a good thing.  If Monty didn't
>> dance around in circles with anticipation when I picked up his harness
>> I'd be worried.  I also like him to be a bit wary of cars, drop offs and
>> construction sites.  It keeps him alert, on his toes and ready to do
>> what he needs to do.  If he had zero stress when working he'd be bored
>> and falling asleep on the street corner.  Okay the falling asleep is a
>> bit of an exaggeration.  I view it like the stress a person might feel
>> before the take the field for the football playoffs or something.  Your
>> pumped up, ready to go, but with just a touch of anxiety.  that's
>> normal.
>>
>> The line between that normal, healthy anticipation variety of stress and
>> the other variety of anxious, nervous unhealthy stress is a fine one.
>> I'm hoping folks here have some insight into defining just where that
>> line is.  and maybe more importantly what to do when your on the wrong
>> side of it.
>>
>> Thoughts?
>> Julie
>>
>>
>> On 11/12/2012 2:14 PM, Robert Hooper wrote:
>>> Hello Julie:
>>>
>>> I will first speak to your inquiry regarding "how much stress is too
>>> much
>>> stress".
>>> I, like most everyone on this list, view the human-dog team as exactly
>>> that--a team. Of course, there is a pack hierarchy, but when the dog is
>>> in
>>> harness, the two are much closer to being equal members of the same
>>> team.
>>> I say "almost" because I don't want to portray an unrealistic and
>>> maudlin
>>> view of what a guide team is. Because we humans have the greater skill
>>> in
>>> leadership and decision making, we will always (or should always)
>>> assume
>>> the role of leader, even when working the dog. However, think of
>>> yourself
>>> as a teacher, and remember that the dog is a dynamic, living creature
>>> that
>>> can feel stress, pain, joy, etc. Julie, I know that you know this, and
>>> thinking of a relationship in this way can help answer your question.
>>> Because we don't view dogs as tools, we therefore know we have an
>>> ethical
>>> obligation to their well-being. Thus, I wouldn't ask my dog to work
>>> when
>>> doing so causes him unhealthy stress. Of course, some level of stress
>>> is
>>> necessary and healthy for learning and work, but there is a definite
>>> curve--that is, the benefits of stress increase with stress only so
>>> far,
>>> and then they start going the other way.
>>> We want our dogs to be happy and to enjoy their work; we don't want to
>>> make them think that they are being forced to do anything against their
>>> wills. They aren't slaves, they are companions, partners, and family
>>> members--and if they aren't enjoying or taking pleasure from their
>>> work,
>>> then I don't think one should continue pressing them to do it.
>>> Julie: as you know Monty best, you can best determine what is making
>>> him
>>> happy and what is making him anxious or stressed. If he loves his
>>> normal
>>> work, or seems to respond to it in a manner normal for him, then I
>>> would
>>> guess that he still enjoys it. If you are noticing that this abnormal
>>> behavior is only occurring when you participate in these conventions,
>>> meetings, etc., then you could probably conclude that this amount of
>>> work
>>> is too stressful to be enjoyable to him. Therefore, you can make other
>>> arrangements for him when you need to travel.
>>> I want Bailey to enjoy his work--I know that there are probably days
>>> when
>>> he doesn't enjoy it as much, or when he isn't as sharp as usual, but so
>>> long as he enjoys it, and it isn't causing him undue stress, I will
>>> gladly
>>> give him work to do. I know you will make the best decision, as you
>>> have
>>> far more experience with dogs than I do. I do hope that Monty continues
>>> to
>>> work well and happily for many more years.
>>> Sincerely,
>>> Robert Hooper
>>> Hooper.90 at buckeyemail.osu.edu
>>> The Ohio State University, Department of Psychology; Department of
>>> Neuroscience
>>> 572 Stinchcomb Drive #3
>>> Columbus, Ohio 43202
>>> (740) 856-8195
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Julie J.
>>> Sent: Monday, November 12, 2012 2:26 PM
>>> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] stress, how much is too much?
>>>
>>> Thanks!  Those are reactions to stress that I wouldn't have thought of.
>>> It makes sense though.  I like to go to bed early when I've had a rough
>>> day.
>>>
>>> I think it's important, especially for the new handlers, to recognize
>>> stress/anxiety at it's first signs.  then the situation can be managed
>>> or
>>> extra encouragement provided to the dog before the problem escalates
>>> into
>>> a huge ordeal.  I think knowing when your dog has had enough and what
>>> to
>>> do about it is very important stuff.
>>> Do the schools provide a seminar or something on noticing stress
>>> signals
>>> from you dog?  What about how to calm a stressed dog?
>>>
>>> Julie
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On 11/12/2012 11:35 AM, Tracy Carcione wrote:
>>>> Sometimes, if we're away at a festival or convention, and Ben has
>>>> worked from morning to night for a couple days, I can tell that he's
>>>> wants a break.  If we're out late, he starts looking toward the door,
>>>> or turning forcefully towards our room.
>>>> During class at TSE, on the weekend before the third week, he just
>>>> shut down.  He wouldn't get up when I called him.  He tried to crawl
>>>> under the bed and hide when I picked up his leash.  It was very
>>>> upsetting.  But I learned then that his reaction to stress is to
>>>> sleep.  If I let him rest, leave him in peace for a while, he's back
>>>> to
>>>> his usual self.
>>>> Tracy
>>>>> I'm wondering how your dog's show that they are stressed and how much
>>>>> is too much?
>>>>>
>>>>> a bit of background...a few months ago I went to an all day meeting
>>>>> out of town.  This involved about 8 hours of car travel there, an
>>>>> overnight hotel stay, the all day meeting, another hotel stay and the
>>>>> car ride home.  Monty has done all of these sorts of things before
>>>>> and
>>>>> since.
>>>>> Before this weekend he showed few signs of stress and they were
>>>>> minor.
>>>>> However for some reason still unknown to me Monty had a tough time
>>>>> this particular weekend.  His signs of stress included: looking at
>>>>> everything incessantly, startling at noises, lip licking, difficulty
>>>>> relaxing  at relief breaks, shaking and pulling like a crazed maniac
>>>>> in
>>>>> harness.
>>>>>
>>>>> For me his signs of stress were pretty high.  If he had continued at
>>>>> that level I would have stopped working him.  We have struggled off
>>>>> and on for the past few months with smaller episodes of
>>>>> stress/anxiety.
>>>>> Overall things have improved dramatically.  Occasionally he will do
>>>>> the lip licking and the looking at everything, but he's not at a
>>>>> level that I feel is risky to his or my health or  safety.
>>>>>
>>>>> Recent messages to the list and my own situation caused me to think
>>>>> about and ask the questions: How much is too much?  What would cause
>>>>> you to quit working a dog completely? What would cause you to quit
>>>>> working a dog in a particular situation?
>>>>>
>>>>> Julie
>>>>>
>>>>>
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>>>>>
>>>>
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>
>
> --
> Mona
>
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