[nagdu] stress, how much is too much?

Tue Nov 13 13:42:25 UTC 2012

Julie et al,
As I reread this thread, it also sounds like the handler is stressed, and as
we know, our dogs know this more than what is being given credit for here.
Although the idea of minimizing the stress in the dogs is a good start, I
believe that one needs to step back just a little further and take a look at
the whole picture...remember, it takes two.  Maybe restart by making work
fun as it seems to be something that is dreaded by both.  

Steve

-----Original Message-----
From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Julie J.
Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2012 7:34 AM
To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
Subject: Re: [nagdu] stress, how much is too much?

It sounds like the corrections are making things worse.  I don't know your
dog or how you were trained so I am hesitant to offer the suggestion of not
correcting.  What do you think would happen if you just reworked the errors
without the correction?  Perhaps he's nervous about messing up and that is
making him mess up even more?

Some things I've been doing at home with Monty that have helped his overall
stress level...
massage, I have the book on T-Touch, but mostly I've been just going with
Monty's reactions and doing more of whatever he likes chews, chewing is a
natural relaxer for dogs.  Monty loves bully sticks.  They are expensive so
I've been giving him rawhide some of the time too.
teach a new skill, I've been teaching a recall to a whistle.  It's a fun
game for both of us.
loads of exercise, in the house, yard or free running when I can

I've been reading about soothing classical music.  It works for people so I
don't see why not.  I still need to get the technical details figured out
though.  My son is going to help, one of these days when we can find an hour
of time when we are both free.  Probably when we get snowed in!

I hope you find what works for you.
Julie

On 11/12/2012 5:28 PM, Ramona Davidson wrote:
> i'm so gladd I stumbled across this particular thred.
> for the last week, ishmael has been showing odd behaivier. he hasn't 
> been paying attention when we're walking which has caused me to run in 
> to something, stumble or almost fall. when i correct him he has 
> started pulling or lunging away from me like he's trying to run away 
> from me. it hurts my back when he does this and throws me off 
> ballence. a few times he's whipped me around corners at breakneck 
> spead and I know he's doing this because he's mad at me. he only does 
> it right after i've corrected him. recently i've had to move up to 
> harsher corrections because the lighter vurble corrections and one 
> handed corrections stopped working. he's stressed, he has to be, but I 
> don't know what to do about it. some days i get the feeling he just 
> doesn't even want to work for me. everyone talks about how there dogs 
> are so excited to be able to work they practicly jump on to there 
> harnesses, ishmael has never done that and more often than not turns 
> his head away from the harness, someone help me. i'm at my whits end.
>
> On 11/12/12, Julie J.<julielj at neb.rr.com>  wrote:
>> Robert,
>>
>> That's it exactly.  a bit of stress is a good thing.  If Monty didn't 
>> dance around in circles with anticipation when I picked up his 
>> harness I'd be worried.  I also like him to be a bit wary of cars, 
>> drop offs and construction sites.  It keeps him alert, on his toes 
>> and ready to do what he needs to do.  If he had zero stress when 
>> working he'd be bored and falling asleep on the street corner.  Okay 
>> the falling asleep is a bit of an exaggeration.  I view it like the 
>> stress a person might feel before the take the field for the football 
>> playoffs or something.  Your pumped up, ready to go, but with just a
touch of anxiety.  that's normal.
>>
>> The line between that normal, healthy anticipation variety of stress 
>> and the other variety of anxious, nervous unhealthy stress is a fine one.
>> I'm hoping folks here have some insight into defining just where that 
>> line is.  and maybe more importantly what to do when your on the 
>> wrong side of it.
>>
>> Thoughts?
>> Julie
>>
>>
>> On 11/12/2012 2:14 PM, Robert Hooper wrote:
>>> Hello Julie:
>>>
>>> I will first speak to your inquiry regarding "how much stress is too 
>>> much stress".
>>> I, like most everyone on this list, view the human-dog team as 
>>> exactly that--a team. Of course, there is a pack hierarchy, but when 
>>> the dog is in harness, the two are much closer to being equal members of
the same team.
>>> I say "almost" because I don't want to portray an unrealistic and 
>>> maudlin view of what a guide team is. Because we humans have the 
>>> greater skill in leadership and decision making, we will always (or 
>>> should always) assume the role of leader, even when working the dog. 
>>> However, think of yourself as a teacher, and remember that the dog 
>>> is a dynamic, living creature that can feel stress, pain, joy, etc. 
>>> Julie, I know that you know this, and thinking of a relationship in this
way can help answer your question.
>>> Because we don't view dogs as tools, we therefore know we have an 
>>> ethical obligation to their well-being. Thus, I wouldn't ask my dog 
>>> to work when doing so causes him unhealthy stress. Of course, some 
>>> level of stress is necessary and healthy for learning and work, but 
>>> there is a definite curve--that is, the benefits of stress increase 
>>> with stress only so far, and then they start going the other way.
>>> We want our dogs to be happy and to enjoy their work; we don't want 
>>> to make them think that they are being forced to do anything against 
>>> their wills. They aren't slaves, they are companions, partners, and 
>>> family members--and if they aren't enjoying or taking pleasure from 
>>> their work, then I don't think one should continue pressing them to do
it.
>>> Julie: as you know Monty best, you can best determine what is making 
>>> him happy and what is making him anxious or stressed. If he loves 
>>> his normal work, or seems to respond to it in a manner normal for 
>>> him, then I would guess that he still enjoys it. If you are noticing 
>>> that this abnormal behavior is only occurring when you participate 
>>> in these conventions, meetings, etc., then you could probably 
>>> conclude that this amount of work is too stressful to be enjoyable 
>>> to him. Therefore, you can make other arrangements for him when you need
to travel.
>>> I want Bailey to enjoy his work--I know that there are probably days 
>>> when he doesn't enjoy it as much, or when he isn't as sharp as 
>>> usual, but so long as he enjoys it, and it isn't causing him undue 
>>> stress, I will gladly give him work to do. I know you will make the 
>>> best decision, as you have far more experience with dogs than I do. 
>>> I do hope that Monty continues to work well and happily for many more
years.
>>> Sincerely,
>>> Robert Hooper
>>> Hooper.90 at buckeyemail.osu.edu
>>> The Ohio State University, Department of Psychology; Department of 
>>> Neuroscience
>>> 572 Stinchcomb Drive #3
>>> Columbus, Ohio 43202
>>> (740) 856-8195
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Julie J.
>>> Sent: Monday, November 12, 2012 2:26 PM
>>> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] stress, how much is too much?
>>>
>>> Thanks!  Those are reactions to stress that I wouldn't have thought of.
>>> It makes sense though.  I like to go to bed early when I've had a 
>>> rough day.
>>>
>>> I think it's important, especially for the new handlers, to 
>>> recognize stress/anxiety at it's first signs.  then the situation 
>>> can be managed or extra encouragement provided to the dog before the 
>>> problem escalates into a huge ordeal.  I think knowing when your dog 
>>> has had enough and what to do about it is very important stuff.
>>> Do the schools provide a seminar or something on noticing stress 
>>> signals from you dog?  What about how to calm a stressed dog?
>>>
>>> Julie
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On 11/12/2012 11:35 AM, Tracy Carcione wrote:
>>>> Sometimes, if we're away at a festival or convention, and Ben has 
>>>> worked from morning to night for a couple days, I can tell that 
>>>> he's wants a break.  If we're out late, he starts looking toward 
>>>> the door, or turning forcefully towards our room.
>>>> During class at TSE, on the weekend before the third week, he just 
>>>> shut down.  He wouldn't get up when I called him.  He tried to 
>>>> crawl under the bed and hide when I picked up his leash.  It was 
>>>> very upsetting.  But I learned then that his reaction to stress is 
>>>> to sleep.  If I let him rest, leave him in peace for a while, he's 
>>>> back to his usual self.
>>>> Tracy
>>>>> I'm wondering how your dog's show that they are stressed and how 
>>>>> much is too much?
>>>>>
>>>>> a bit of background...a few months ago I went to an all day 
>>>>> meeting out of town.  This involved about 8 hours of car travel 
>>>>> there, an overnight hotel stay, the all day meeting, another hotel 
>>>>> stay and the car ride home.  Monty has done all of these sorts of 
>>>>> things before and since.
>>>>> Before this weekend he showed few signs of stress and they were minor.
>>>>> However for some reason still unknown to me Monty had a tough time 
>>>>> this particular weekend.  His signs of stress included: looking at 
>>>>> everything incessantly, startling at noises, lip licking, 
>>>>> difficulty relaxing  at relief breaks, shaking and pulling like a 
>>>>> crazed maniac in harness.
>>>>>
>>>>> For me his signs of stress were pretty high.  If he had continued 
>>>>> at that level I would have stopped working him.  We have struggled 
>>>>> off and on for the past few months with smaller episodes of
stress/anxiety.
>>>>> Overall things have improved dramatically.  Occasionally he will 
>>>>> do the lip licking and the looking at everything, but he's not at 
>>>>> a level that I feel is risky to his or my health or  safety.
>>>>>
>>>>> Recent messages to the list and my own situation caused me to 
>>>>> think about and ask the questions: How much is too much?  What 
>>>>> would cause you to quit working a dog completely? What would cause 
>>>>> you to quit working a dog in a particular situation?
>>>>>
>>>>> Julie
>>>>>
>>>>>
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