[nagdu] First dog concerns

Sat Sep 8 12:58:12 UTC 2012

I apologize.  Did not see the moderator's message before sending.  My 
email client displays messages in reverse order.

Meghan
On 9/8/2012 7:56 AM, Meghan Whalen wrote:
> I am curious how it is possible to justify bopping a dog in one place 
> and not another, a tap is a tap is a tap wherever it is done.  I 
> honestly think that tapping the top of the dog's head would be much 
> worse for many reasons, including that the trainer has to reach up and 
> past the dog's eyes and would probably aim poorly more often.  Also, 
> the point of the nose/snout bopping is that the dog's nose is the 
> first thing to get too close to the car. Waiting for the dog's head to 
> get in range would be far too close to the car, like on top of it and 
> making contact.  They get the dog on the muzzle, not the tender part 
> of the nose.  Regardless, everyone is entitled to his or her opinion, 
> and this is why there are options as to what program to go to to 
> obtain a guide.  Most other schools don't use this method if any 
> others do, but it has also been said many times that TSE's traffic 
> training bests most others.  Like others have said, if one perfectly 
> harmless tap is what it takes to insure safety, I am okay with it.  
> Traffic training is a very physical process in which the dogs learn to 
> have a deep respect for what the vehicles can do to them.  I have been 
> a part of the process more than once, and that part of training is 
> what makes or breaks the dog.
>
>
>
>
>
> On 9/7/2012 8:34 PM, Jenny Keller wrote:
>> I don't agree with the newspaper thing, which the writer said was used.
>>
>> I don't like Southeastern's methods either having been through what 
>> I've gone through with them.  But they use the tapping on the 
>> obstacles and a leash correction and a tap of the foot on a missed 
>> step of curb and the command watch when they are training the dog.
>>
>> I don't think any dog should be struck on the nose with anything.
>>
>> there was a woman that I went to school with, which one of the people 
>> on the list knows, but maybe does not know this about her first dog.  
>> the dog was very unruly, and they tried everything from prong and 
>> pinch collars.  No matter what they did, nothing worked.
>>
>> southeastern does not use gentle leaders or haul ties, so they didn't 
>> do that.  the dog was discovered to have a bad tooth, and they 
>> thought that was why he was acting so bad.  this was three weeks into 
>> the class.  When the vet x-rayed the dog's mouth to find out how bad 
>> the tooth was, it was discovered that the dog's NOSE, and you read 
>> that right, nose, was broken, and no one, not the trainers, or 
>> anyone, knew about it.
>>
>> It had been corrected, and corrected, and corrected, as firmly as 
>> possible with many different collars and strengths.  But the real 
>> problem was that the dog had to be in excruciating pain.
>>
>> You can bop a dog in the head with a soft instrument.  But the nose?  
>> There is no excuse for that at all, and I consider that abuse.
>>
>> Jenny
>> On Sep 7, 2012, at 1:45 AM, avapup.7 at gmail.com wrote:
>>
>>> I mean, don't some schools at least train obstacle avoidance by 
>>> smacking the object ( not the dog! ) so that the dog associates the 
>>> obstacle with a loud unpleasant noise, thus avoiding it in the 
>>> future? Or, if that's not possible, say a dog in early-ish training 
>>> is going to run her handler into a glass window, the trainer ( the 
>>> dog isn't placed yet, just in training ) will either use a sharp 
>>> vocal correction or slap her or his leg, making the dog-in-training 
>>> avoid that window or similar ones in the future? Or is that all 
>>> outdated training now?
>>>
>>> I didn't like hearing that The Seeing Eye was hitting dogs with 
>>> newspapers, but if they're using a foam ball type thing, I don't 
>>> think that would hurt the dog. I wonder if more traffic training 
>>> done by the trainers could eliminate the need for this? But when I 
>>> think about it, and dogs playing sure do hit each other a lot harder 
>>> than a gentle tap! And if it saves the life of both human and dog, I 
>>> don't see anything wrong with a foam type thing tapping a dog to 
>>> teach or reinforce to the dog - don't approach that car in the street!!
>>>
>>> Ava and Cocoa
>>>
>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>
>>> On Sep 6, 2012, at 5:14 PM, "Lyn Gwizdak" <linda.gwizdak at cox.net> 
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> No worries!  They NEVER harm a dog doing this to teach traffic to 
>>>> our dogs. TSE uses a padded wand - they showed it to us - and give 
>>>> a very quick poke. The dog is startled by this because they don't 
>>>> expect it and they learn to watch for cars. Don't know what other 
>>>> schools use to teach this.
>>>>
>>>> Years ago, dog or animal training was much more harsh and even what 
>>>> we would currently call abusive.  Over the years training has 
>>>> gotten much gentler and the dogs are not harmed during their 
>>>> training.  They don't even have to do this to every dog - only the 
>>>> harder ones who don't respond to less in-their-face type of training.
>>>>
>>>> Teaching respect for moving traffic is truely a life-or-death thing 
>>>> and the dogs MUST learn this so we are safe with being guided by 
>>>> them.  Actually, the dog thinks the CAR smacked them and never even 
>>>> realize that the trainer, who is driving, poked them with that 
>>>> wand! Any dog who can't learn traffic safely is dropped from the 
>>>> program.
>>>>
>>>> HTH,
>>>>
>>>> Lyn and Landon
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>>
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