[nagdu] What about registering service dogs with the DOJ?

Tue Aug 20 18:16:20 UTC 2013

Tracy,

I've been wondering about that facet, too. I'm a big fan of big 
penalties for fraud! How do I know who is a fraud and who's not? Well, 
how does Joe Restaurant Guy know there's someone who needs to pay the 
big penalty? Hm... Since they ask me about such things, I really ought 
to figure it out, so here's what I have so far:

1) You don't know, and that is that. The person has a disability and his 
dog is task-trained, or the team is a fraud. PWDs need the legal 
protections, we are more vulnerable to abuse and likely to get it than 
JRG (Joe Restaurant Guy) or even JQP (John Q. Public). So we need the 
greater protection. Thus the 2 question rule without making us blurt out 
that we are disabled, because that word has connotations that will make 
people be nasty to us. We're saying that when we say our dog is a 
service dog, but more subtly.

2) The worst problem when it comes to frauds is the behavior. Passing 
your nice pet off is kinda scummy; but if your pet is as well-behaved as 
we expect our service dogs to be, it's not that huge an impact. If the 
handler is letting the dog cause a problem, then that needs to be 
eliminated, so out they go! The status still doesn't matter, so there's 
still no way to determine if there is fraud involved. Not very 
satisfying, but there it is. No options are satisfying.

3) So toss the dog out! The handler threatens to sue. Scary! However... 
If the handler is committing fraud in the first place, he will find out 
that he's in more trouble if he does sue because that will come out in 
the proceedings. If he's a stupid enough fraud to do it anyway, then the 
business still has a big pain and some expense. Thinking about 
penalties, though, it might be nice to include reimbursement if you file 
a nuisance suit in furtherance of your original crime of fraud? Hm...

4) If the cops get involved when you try to toss out the bad dog, can 
the cops determine the disability status and task training with more 
latitude than the business can? I don't know, since I only just thought 
to wonder because you asked.

5) For those people who waltz into restaurants with fancy patches and 
plastic cards and lie when they answer the questions, then walk off 
giggling about how they just pulled it off... Throw the book at them! 
Has anyone ever encountered that? I have! Incredible. And the business 
is so worried it might be a service dog and they might get sued, they 
just wander to the back office and give it all up. Sad, and rather 
baffling, but... Penalties might cut down on the poor business guy's 
dilemma.

6) Also better understanding of what the law actually is would help. It 
shouldn't fall on us to have to carry on with ongoing education, but I 
see it as self-defense. Sigh.

My current Evil Plan That I Must Not Use is to start communicating 
clearly that anyone who says "Yes" to the first question to verify it is 
a service dog is a) a PWD or b) a fraud... Well, why the Evil Plan is a 
bad idea is because I'm having fun thinking of nasty ways to say it that 
would shame the sort of person who pulls that kind of crap just so they 
can bring their dog into a grocery store. Without making life difficult 
for folks with hidden disabilities for which they use service dogs.

So caution is required, I think, even if it isn't any fun. Finding 
clarity and balance when dealing with humans is just dratted impossible. 
/lol/

Tami

On 08/20/2013 10:24 AM, Tracy Carcione wrote:
> This sounds good, but how does one know when someone is faking a
> disability to bring a pet where it couldn't usually go?
> Many moons ago, I knew a Seeing Eye dog who became legendary for his
> poor behavior in public, to the annoyance of all of us who keep our dogs
> under good control.  So there are legitimate service dogs who act up,
> and there are people whose disabilities aren't as obvious as blindness.
> If a cop or a business owner suspects fraud, does the ask the 2
> ADA-allowed questions, and, if the answers aren't satisfactory, charge
> the guy with a felony?
> Just wondering how this would work in practice.
> Tracy
>
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Michael Hingson"
> <info at michaelhingson.com>
> To: "'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users'"
> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Tuesday, August 20, 2013 8:40 AM
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] What about registering service dogs with the DOJ?
>
>
>> Again, why?  This is really about you and me having rights, not the
>> animal.
>> The present regulations under the ADA offer a way to  determine
>> whether or
>> not an aanimal fits the requirements.  If there is a suspicion that the
>> animal is not a service animal then something can be done.
>>
>> I submit that the penalties for fraudulent representation by
>> individuals of
>> service animals is the real problem.  We need federal and state laws
>> changed
>> to make it a felany to misrepresent and interfere with legitimate service
>> animals.  I do NOT want ANY new identification process for me or my dog.
>> The problem and burden of proof should not be with me nor you.  The
>> burden
>> should fall and the criminals.
>>
>> There is abundant proof that owner trained animals can and do function
>> well
>> as guides.  How are they going to be included in any identification
>> process?
>> If the standards of the International Federation of Guide Dog Schools are
>> used how will non-accredited schools such as Pilot Dogs going to be
>> represented?  Do we want the NFB to be the gating organization?  I
>> think no
>> to all of these things.
>>
>> Put the burden on the criminals and make the consiquences stiff.  If
>> we want
>> true first class citizenship then let's demand that we be treated
>> appropriately and not segregated off through some additional
>> identification
>> or classification process which only serves to again make us seem
>> different
>> and not part of the norm.
>>
>>
>> Best,
>>
>>
>> Michael Hingson
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Mardi Hadfield
>> Sent: Tuesday, August 20, 2013 5:30 AM
>> To: nagdu at nfbnet.org
>> Subject: [nagdu] What about registering service dogs with the DOJ?
>>
>> First of all I am not in favor of any type of certification. I do think
>> registration identification might be the way to go.If the DOJ could be in
>> charge of handing out a specific type of service dog tag at a fee of say,
>> $10 to register your service dog.Say you must have a letter from your
>> doctor
>> that you do indeed have a disability and a certificate from your
>> trainer,or
>> in the case of an owner trainer,a log of the hours of training you
>> accomplished and a list of the tasks the dog does to mitigate your
>> disability,and or maybe the Canine Good Citizen test in order to register
>> with the DOJ.If you have a School trained dog and wanted to register with
>> the DOJ, maybe the school ID would be the only proof you would need for
>> registration.This would not be mandatory, but only if you wanted to
>> register
>> your service dog.I don't think that people who fake their dogs would go
>> through all that for a registration ID tag.This would Identify a DOJ
>> registered service dog.There might be some fakes that get through but it
>> would certainly cut down on them.If the tag were to get lost, a fee of
>> $5 could be charged to get a replacement tag.This is merely a suggestion.
>> Mardi and Shaman and Neechee,GDIT.
>>
>> --
>> http://wolfsinger-lakota.blogspot.com/
>> http://wolfsinger2-thegoldendragon.blogspot.com
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