[nagdu] What about registering service dogs with the DOJ?

Tracy Carcione carcione at access.net
Thu Aug 22 12:41:32 UTC 2013


Hi Tami.
I agree with everything you said.
If a dog misbehaves, the business has the right to throw it out, service dog 
or not.  And I'd be OK with a fine as well.  I don't think it should rise to 
the level of a felony; I think a felony should be for when someone actually 
gets hurt.

I've never met a fake service dog, and I eat out a fair bit.  Actually, I'm 
generally impressed by the level of good behavior most New Yorkers seem to 
expect of their dogs in public, probably because they're out so much.  In 
Ben's younger days, it wasn't uncommon for him to be dancing about, acting 
the fool, while some quiet, well-behaved pet walked by.

I did have a problem last month that was odd.  We were at our local diner, 
and Ben wouldn't settle down.  Turned out there was a puddle where he had to 
lie down.  The owner said Ben had peed, but, since we were good customers, 
he'd overlook it.  I am sure Ben didn't pee.  He's shown no signs of 
incontinence.  I'm sure someone spilled some water there.  I guess, if the 
owner had asked Ben be removed, I'd have had to take a sample of the liquid 
somehow, and determine if it was pee or water, so I wouldn't be unjustly 
fined.
Tracy

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Tami Jarvis" <tami at poodlemutt.com>
To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users" 
<nagdu at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Tuesday, August 20, 2013 2:16 PM
Subject: Re: [nagdu] What about registering service dogs with the DOJ?


> Tracy,
>
> I've been wondering about that facet, too. I'm a big fan of big penalties 
> for fraud! How do I know who is a fraud and who's not? Well, how does Joe 
> Restaurant Guy know there's someone who needs to pay the big penalty? 
> Hm... Since they ask me about such things, I really ought to figure it 
> out, so here's what I have so far:
>
> 1) You don't know, and that is that. The person has a disability and his 
> dog is task-trained, or the team is a fraud. PWDs need the legal 
> protections, we are more vulnerable to abuse and likely to get it than JRG 
> (Joe Restaurant Guy) or even JQP (John Q. Public). So we need the greater 
> protection. Thus the 2 question rule without making us blurt out that we 
> are disabled, because that word has connotations that will make people be 
> nasty to us. We're saying that when we say our dog is a service dog, but 
> more subtly.
>
> 2) The worst problem when it comes to frauds is the behavior. Passing your 
> nice pet off is kinda scummy; but if your pet is as well-behaved as we 
> expect our service dogs to be, it's not that huge an impact. If the 
> handler is letting the dog cause a problem, then that needs to be 
> eliminated, so out they go! The status still doesn't matter, so there's 
> still no way to determine if there is fraud involved. Not very satisfying, 
> but there it is. No options are satisfying.
>
> 3) So toss the dog out! The handler threatens to sue. Scary! However... If 
> the handler is committing fraud in the first place, he will find out that 
> he's in more trouble if he does sue because that will come out in the 
> proceedings. If he's a stupid enough fraud to do it anyway, then the 
> business still has a big pain and some expense. Thinking about penalties, 
> though, it might be nice to include reimbursement if you file a nuisance 
> suit in furtherance of your original crime of fraud? Hm...
>
> 4) If the cops get involved when you try to toss out the bad dog, can the 
> cops determine the disability status and task training with more latitude 
> than the business can? I don't know, since I only just thought to wonder 
> because you asked.
>
> 5) For those people who waltz into restaurants with fancy patches and 
> plastic cards and lie when they answer the questions, then walk off 
> giggling about how they just pulled it off... Throw the book at them! Has 
> anyone ever encountered that? I have! Incredible. And the business is so 
> worried it might be a service dog and they might get sued, they just 
> wander to the back office and give it all up. Sad, and rather baffling, 
> but... Penalties might cut down on the poor business guy's dilemma.
>
> 6) Also better understanding of what the law actually is would help. It 
> shouldn't fall on us to have to carry on with ongoing education, but I see 
> it as self-defense. Sigh.
>
> My current Evil Plan That I Must Not Use is to start communicating clearly 
> that anyone who says "Yes" to the first question to verify it is a service 
> dog is a) a PWD or b) a fraud... Well, why the Evil Plan is a bad idea is 
> because I'm having fun thinking of nasty ways to say it that would shame 
> the sort of person who pulls that kind of crap just so they can bring 
> their dog into a grocery store. Without making life difficult for folks 
> with hidden disabilities for which they use service dogs.
>
> So caution is required, I think, even if it isn't any fun. Finding clarity 
> and balance when dealing with humans is just dratted impossible. /lol/
>
> Tami
>
> On 08/20/2013 10:24 AM, Tracy Carcione wrote:
>> This sounds good, but how does one know when someone is faking a
>> disability to bring a pet where it couldn't usually go?
>> Many moons ago, I knew a Seeing Eye dog who became legendary for his
>> poor behavior in public, to the annoyance of all of us who keep our dogs
>> under good control.  So there are legitimate service dogs who act up,
>> and there are people whose disabilities aren't as obvious as blindness.
>> If a cop or a business owner suspects fraud, does the ask the 2
>> ADA-allowed questions, and, if the answers aren't satisfactory, charge
>> the guy with a felony?
>> Just wondering how this would work in practice.
>> Tracy
>>
>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Michael Hingson"
>> <info at michaelhingson.com>
>> To: "'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users'"
>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Tuesday, August 20, 2013 8:40 AM
>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] What about registering service dogs with the DOJ?
>>
>>
>>> Again, why?  This is really about you and me having rights, not the
>>> animal.
>>> The present regulations under the ADA offer a way to  determine
>>> whether or
>>> not an aanimal fits the requirements.  If there is a suspicion that the
>>> animal is not a service animal then something can be done.
>>>
>>> I submit that the penalties for fraudulent representation by
>>> individuals of
>>> service animals is the real problem.  We need federal and state laws
>>> changed
>>> to make it a felany to misrepresent and interfere with legitimate 
>>> service
>>> animals.  I do NOT want ANY new identification process for me or my dog.
>>> The problem and burden of proof should not be with me nor you.  The
>>> burden
>>> should fall and the criminals.
>>>
>>> There is abundant proof that owner trained animals can and do function
>>> well
>>> as guides.  How are they going to be included in any identification
>>> process?
>>> If the standards of the International Federation of Guide Dog Schools 
>>> are
>>> used how will non-accredited schools such as Pilot Dogs going to be
>>> represented?  Do we want the NFB to be the gating organization?  I
>>> think no
>>> to all of these things.
>>>
>>> Put the burden on the criminals and make the consiquences stiff.  If
>>> we want
>>> true first class citizenship then let's demand that we be treated
>>> appropriately and not segregated off through some additional
>>> identification
>>> or classification process which only serves to again make us seem
>>> different
>>> and not part of the norm.
>>>
>>>
>>> Best,
>>>
>>>
>>> Michael Hingson
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Mardi 
>>> Hadfield
>>> Sent: Tuesday, August 20, 2013 5:30 AM
>>> To: nagdu at nfbnet.org
>>> Subject: [nagdu] What about registering service dogs with the DOJ?
>>>
>>> First of all I am not in favor of any type of certification. I do think
>>> registration identification might be the way to go.If the DOJ could be 
>>> in
>>> charge of handing out a specific type of service dog tag at a fee of 
>>> say,
>>> $10 to register your service dog.Say you must have a letter from your
>>> doctor
>>> that you do indeed have a disability and a certificate from your
>>> trainer,or
>>> in the case of an owner trainer,a log of the hours of training you
>>> accomplished and a list of the tasks the dog does to mitigate your
>>> disability,and or maybe the Canine Good Citizen test in order to 
>>> register
>>> with the DOJ.If you have a School trained dog and wanted to register 
>>> with
>>> the DOJ, maybe the school ID would be the only proof you would need for
>>> registration.This would not be mandatory, but only if you wanted to
>>> register
>>> your service dog.I don't think that people who fake their dogs would go
>>> through all that for a registration ID tag.This would Identify a DOJ
>>> registered service dog.There might be some fakes that get through but it
>>> would certainly cut down on them.If the tag were to get lost, a fee of
>>> $5 could be charged to get a replacement tag.This is merely a 
>>> suggestion.
>>> Mardi and Shaman and Neechee,GDIT.
>>>
>>> --
>>> http://wolfsinger-lakota.blogspot.com/
>>> http://wolfsinger2-thegoldendragon.blogspot.com
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>>>
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>>
>>
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>
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