[nagdu] Ownership and Other Agreements was Guide Dog Schools

L Gwizdak leg1950 at cox.net
Sun Nov 3 19:53:40 UTC 2013


Hi Brandy,
Welcome back!  I have a dog from TSE and yes we own them outright when we 
graduate.  As far as reclaiming dogs who are being neglected or because of 
other cruelty, TSE can, if they highly suspect something amiss, contact the 
locale Animal Control or Humane Society and have them look into the issue. 
These local agencies can remove an animal from a person they find is 
neglecting or abusing an animal.  Doesn't matter if the person in question 
has a disability or not.

I got my first two dogs from GDF in the early 1970s and they were good dogs. 
I was there when John Buyfield was Director of Training there.

Lyn and Landon
"Asking who's the man and who's the woman in an LGBT relationship is like 
asking which chopstick is the fork" - Unknown
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Brandydp" <brandydp at verizon.net>
To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users" 
<nagdu at nfbnet.org>
Cc: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users" 
<nagdu at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Saturday, November 02, 2013 11:27 AM
Subject: Re: [nagdu] Ownership and Other Agreements was Guide Dog Schools


> If this is true of pilot the four dogs I returned for behavior problems 
> should of not been taken then no one reel me what became of them. And I 
> lied my best friend, though she made some iffy decisions on living 
> situations did have her dog wrongfully taken.  Though she had just had a 
> baby and someone else was watching and it got out and the school had the 
> person return it to them without telling her.  Again if they claim to give 
> full ownership this would not of been the case.  She does take 
> responsibility.   However the point is when schools give full ownership 
> like tse the dog can not be taken so at least in the time I was there they 
> did not give full ownership.   Also when you own your dogs, as I did at 
> gdf, you sign ownership back to the school which I never did with pilot. 
> Things could of changed since 08 though
>
> brandy pinder
> Alumni Council -  second vice Chairman
> Guide Dog Foundation for the Blind, Inc®
> and America's VetDogs®, The Veteran's K-9 Corps Inc®
> Providing "Second uSight"® since 1946
>
> 371 E. Jericho Turnpike smith town ny 11766
> Cso: 866-282-8047
> Email: brandydp at verizon.net
> Cell: 304-685-4499
>
> On Nov 2, 2013, at 1:14 PM, "Chantel Cuddemi" <jawsgirl87 at gmail.com> 
> wrote:
>
>> Hi,
>>
>> I remember my trainer at Pilot Dogs reading the written agreement to us 
>> in
>> class, and the head trainer explained that what the written paper states 
>> is
>> that we have full ownership of our dogs upon graduation .
>>
>> The only time, the paper said, that ownership reverts back to Pilot is if
>> the dog is sent back to be reissued or if the dog is being abused or
>> neglected.
>>
>> I wish I could help you see this, but I don't know how to do so...
>>
>> Chantel and Motley.
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of National
>> Association of Guide Dog Users
>> Sent: Friday, November 01, 2013 10:41 PM
>> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Ownership and Other Agreements was Guide Dog Schools
>>
>> Chantel,
>>    Though you may have been told this, the fact of the matter is that
>> such an agreement, if not in writing, does not exist. Though it is true 
>> that
>> verbal agreements are binding, written agreements preempt any verbal
>> agreement. It might be a good thing to read the agreement to see what it
>> states concerning this.
>>
>> Fraternally yours,
>> Marion Gwizdala
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Chantel 
>> Cuddemi
>> Sent: Friday, November 01, 2013 3:16 PM
>> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Ownership and Other Agreements was Guide Dog Schools
>>
>> Hi,
>>
>> The copy of my agreement is in print, and I don't have any way to scan it 
>> in
>> to a readable document.
>>
>> I was told by other Pilot grads that we do have full ownership of our 
>> dogs
>> upon graduation.
>>
>> Chantel and Motley.
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of National
>> Association of Guide Dog Users
>> Sent: Friday, November 01, 2013 12:24 PM
>> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
>> Subject: [nagdu] Ownership and Other Agreements was Guide Dog Schools
>>
>> Chantel,
>>    It is my understanding that Pilot does not transfer ownership upon
>> completion of training. Do you have a copy of the Pilot agreement 
>> concerning
>> this? As was stated on this list a little earlier, there are those who 
>> would
>> share misinformation about the training programs and, in an effort to
>> provide accurate information from an objective point of view, I would 
>> like
>> to see the agreements from the training programs. NAGDU has requested 
>> this
>> information from each of the programs and the only ones that were
>> cooperative were the Guide Dog Foundation and Guide Dogs of America. I do
>> have the Fidelco agreement, as posted to the list; however, this was 
>> given
>> to me by a consumer, not by Fidelco. I know it is a true representation 
>> of
>> the agreement, as other Fidelco consumers have shared their agreements 
>> with
>> me and they are identical.
>>
>>    It is my contention that, if the training programs feel confident
>> with their agreements, they should be willing to share them with
>> representative consumer organization in the interest of transparency and
>> accountability. Failing this, it would be great if consumers would share
>> their agreements with us.
>>
>> Fraternally yours,
>>
>> Marion Gwizdala, President
>> National Association of Guide Dog Users Inc.
>> National Federation of the Blind
>> (813) 626-2789 (Office)
>> 888-NAGDU411 (Hotline
>> President at nagdu.org
>> www.nagdu.org
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Chantel 
>> Cuddemi
>> Sent: Thursday, October 31, 2013 10:08 PM
>> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Guide Dog Schools
>>
>> Hanna,
>>
>> Pilot Dogs gives us graduates full ownership of our dogs upon graduation
>> from the program.
>>
>> Hope that helped,
>>
>> Chantel and Motley of Pilot Dogs.
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Hannah 
>> Chadwick
>> Sent: Thursday, October 31, 2013 7:56 PM
>> To: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Guide Dog Schools
>>
>> Yes, GDB can provide more financial help if needed.  I think that larger
>> schools tend to have more follow-up services because they have more funds 
>> as
>> well as trainers.  I don't think Pilot gives complete ownership, but I 
>> could
>> be wrong since that wasn't one of my concerns when I applied.  Pilot also
>> trains boxers and Dobermans in addition to what Raven mentioned.
>> On one hand I think that it is important to have a breed preference, but 
>> on
>> the other, I think it is the training that matters the most.  There are 
>> good
>> things and bad things about every breed of dog.  The work you put in is 
>> what
>> you will get out.  The more effort you put into your dog will mean more
>> success with your team.  When you get your dog, please remember that the
>> bonding process takes between 6 months and a year.  As in my earlier 
>> email,
>> please feel free to email me off list if you want to know about Pilot or
>> Guide Dogs for the Blind.
>> Good luck, Hannah and Spritzie
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: Raven Tolliver <ravend729 at gmail.com
>> To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org Date sent: Thu, 31 Oct 2013 19:39:50 -0400
>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Guide Dog Schools
>>
>> Hi,
>> I attended Guiding Eyes for the Blind primarily because I wanted an adult
>> dog.  As a person who never owned or handled a dog before, I thought it
>> important to have a dog that was physically and mentally mature, and had
>> established mannerisms.  I wanted a golden retriever, and goldens and 
>> German
>> shepherds have a better work ethic as adults.
>> This has been proven in studies of guide dog programs and service dog
>> programs.
>> I also chose GEB because of the financial assistance.  Students are 
>> allotted
>> $200 annually, and if your dog is 10 pounds within their target weight, 
>> the
>> student is given another $100.  There is also an emergency fund, but it 
>> can
>> only be used once during a particular dog's career.  The GDB grads can
>> correct me if I'm wrong, but I think GDB gives more financial assistance
>> than this.  Grads from that program can explain the logistics better.
>> As far as what breed of dog is best at guide work, that depends on the
>> person.  I have always adored the gentle nature and laid-back temperament 
>> of
>> a golden, and I would not want to live with the high energy and 
>> quirkiness
>> of a typical labrador.  German shepherds are very serious about their 
>> work,
>> but they have high energy requirements.
>> All
>> three breeds are extremely loving, loyal and obedient if you bond with 
>> them
>> properly.  All three breeds have double coats, so they both shed a lot. 
>> I
>> do not know as much about the other breeds put out by Pilot dogs, but 
>> people
>> have success with them, so you would have to ask the handlers of poodles,
>> dobermans, and Vieszlas.
>> You have to decide for yourself what you like or don't like in a dog.
>> And the personality is just as, if not more, important than breed.
>> Also, know that if you are picky about breed that it may take longer to 
>> find
>> you the right dog and get a class date.  I was fortunate that my golden 
>> was
>> available so soon after I applied, but I knew that being choosy might 
>> mean a
>> longer wait.
>> To determine which school might be right for you, you should rate the
>> following factors by importance  to you.
>> location of school, home-training program, special needs program, cost of
>> the program, length of program, financial assistance, follow up services,
>> ownership policy, training methods, choice to meet and keep in touch with
>> your dog's puppy-raisers, graduation ceremony, breeds offered, life stage 
>> of
>> dogs issued These are just what I can think of for now, but there are 
>> more
>> factors that others will bring to your attention.
>> If ownership is important to you, the Seeing Eye, Pilot Dogs, or Guide 
>> Dogs
>> of America are options.  If you don't understand why ownership is 
>> important
>> to some people, then I will explain upon request, because it is a very
>> serious issue that every service dog handler should have proper
>> understanding of.
>> If home-training is important to you this is offered by Fidelco, Guiding
>> Eyes, and a couple other programs.  Guiding Eyes usually does 
>> home-training
>> with returning graduates, but they have been known to approve it for 
>> first
>> time trainees.
>> I would encourage you to complete your training with your first guide dog 
>> at
>> the school if it is at all possible and convenient for you.  The benefit 
>> is
>> that you will not likely feel alone in the struggles you will experience,
>> and also, you can get great training and doggie care tips from 
>> experienced
>> guide dog handlers.  In addition, you could develop long standing
>> relationships with other classmates, which was a plus for me.
>> Good luck, and email me off list if you want to know more about my 
>> Guiding
>> Eyes experience.
>>
>>
>> On 10/31/13, Shickeytha Chandler <shickeytha at gmail.com> wrote:
>> Thank you all for your responses.  I have actually been leaning toward  a
>> lab or a golden because I have heard in the past that those types of 
>> dogs
>> are very loyal and have an even temperament.  But at the same  time, I 
>> want
>> to have an open mind and consider what other types of  dogs might have to
>> offer.  By the way, I love the names of all three of  your dogs.  Great 
>> dog
>> names!
>>
>> On 10/31/13, minh ha <minh.ha927 at gmail.com> wrote:
>> Hi Shickeytha,
>>
>> I want to echo what Hannah said in her email.  I am working with my 
>> first
>> guide, Viva from Guide Dogs for the Blind on their Oregon  campus.  As a
>> college student, financial and post-graduation support  were the two most
>> critical aspects that I was looking for in a guide  dog school.  I felt 
>> like
>> GDB provided both of these and I really liked  their positive training
>> methods as well as the respectful way they  treat their handlers. 
>> Regarding
>> the breed of dog, I think that  ultimately needs to be your decision. 
>> Each
>> individual has their  preference and people are going to tell you their
>> choice is the best.
>> GDB only works with labs and golden retrievers.  My girl is a lab and I
>> couldn't have asked for a better dog; she's extremely energetic and 
>> playful,
>> but she's an excellent worker once the harness goes on.
>>
>> Minh
>>
>> On 10/31/13, Chantel Cuddemi <jawsgirl87 at gmail.com> wrote:
>> Welcome to the  list!
>>
>> I am working my first dog from Pilot Dogs, a standard poodle named 
>> Motley!
>>
>> We've been a team for a year and eight months.
>>
>> Good luck with what school you choose!
>>
>> Chantel and Motley.
>>
>> On 10/31/13, Hannah Chadwick <sparklylicious at gmail.com> wrote:
>> Hey,
>> Welcome to the list.  I'm working my second guide, Spritz.  She  is from
>> Guide Dogs for the Blind.  She is a black lab; I got her  over the 
>> summer.
>> Since I'm a college student and having had a previous dog that  was very
>> high-maintenance, I knew I would need financial  assistance and after
>> support.  Those were two of the major things  I looked for when I applied 
>> to
>> schools.  The training methods  (positive vs negative) used in schools 
>> also
>> mattered to me.  Of  course which may vary on an individual and team 
>> basis,
>> but I've  come to realize that food rewards go a long way.  My first dog 
>> was
>> from Pilot because I wanted a poodle, but she retired after  almost a 
>> year.
>> My training experience at Pilot was good, but I  wasn't as experienced so 
>> I
>> didn't have the necessary tools to  manage such a high-strung dog. 
>> Please
>> email me off-list if you  have further questions.
>> Good luck with the application process  and all that.
>> Best, Hannah and Spritz
>>  ----- Original Message -----
>> From: Shickeytha Chandler <shickeytha at gmail.com
>> To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog  Users"
>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org  Date sent: Thu, 31 Oct 2013 14:08:20 -0400
>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Guide Dog Schools
>>
>> No problem.  I understand that different people have different 
>> experiences
>> and perspectives, and I think it is important to  consider  both positive
>> and negative.  Thanks.
>>
>> On 10/31/13, Mike <blinkin4342 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>  As a Fidelco client I completely disagree with the statement  that 
>> Fidelco
>>  has contract issues.  The issues are definitely personal and not 
>> Fidelco's
>>  fault.
>>  I have had nothing but good experiences with Fidelco over the  last 
>> three
>>  years and I know a lot of people who feel the same way.  There  are a
>> certain
>>  handful of folks on this list who have personal issues with  Fidelco and
>> tend
>>  to be much louder than the people who have good experiences.
>>  You should definitely read the contract to make sure you are  aware of 
>> the
>>  rules.  That is the case with any guy dog school.  Just keep an  open
>> mind.
>>  Every school has good and bad things.  Every school has someone  who 
>> loves
>>  them and hates them.  I'd recommend that you decide what breed  you 
>> want,
>> see
>>  what school meets your needs the best, and go forward from  there.
>>
>>
>>  Mike
>>
>>  On Oct 31, 2013, at 12:18 PM, "Larry D.  Keeler"
>> <lkeeler at comcast.net
>>  wrote:
>>
>>  First, watch out for Fidelco! They have contract issues.
>> Before
>> you
>>  decide, make sure you read and understand the contract.  The  other 
>> thing,
>>  schools when possible do give you a choice.  Now always can they
>> accomidate
>>  but usually they can.  I went to Pilot because I wanted a  poodle.  They
>>  breed them down there.  However, I ended up qith a labradoodle  wich is
>>  almost as good! As for training at school or at home, I think it  would 
>> be
>>  more useful to train at hom.  But, if you know your  neighborhood, it
>>  doesn't matter as much.
>>  ----- Original Message ----- From: "Shickeytha Chandler"
>>  <shickeytha at gmail.com
>>  To: <nagdu at nfbnet.org
>>  Sent: Thursday, October 31, 2013 11:44 AM
>>  Subject: [nagdu] Guide Dog Schools
>>
>>
>>  Hello all,
>>
>>  I am new to the list.  I currently travel with a cane, but am  very
>>  seriously considering getting a guide dog in the near future.
>> I
>> am
>>  doing research on guide dog schools to see which might be best  for me.
>>  I am considering Fidelco, Guiding Eyes and the Seeing Eye.
>> Does
>> anyone
>>  on this list have either particularly positive or especially  negative
>>  experiences with any of these schools? If so, I would be  interested to
>>  hear your feedback.  Also, I noticed that Fidelco does training  at your
>>  residence, whereas the other schools bring you to their campuses  for
>>  training.  I would like to hear perspectives about the  disadvantages
>>  and advantages of each of these methods of training.
>>
>>  Finally, I know that various types of dogs are trained as  guides,
>>  ranging from labs to German Shepherds.  I would like to know if  schools
>>  give you a choice as to what type of dog you are paired with.
>> Also, I
>>  would be interested to hear from anyone who has worked with dogs  of
>>  various kinds; I'd like to know your thoughts as to whether  there are
>>  distinct qualities that one breed possesses that another breed  does
>>  not generally possess.  Of course, I am sure all dogs are  unique, even
>>  within a breed type.
>>
>>  I know that is a lot of questions for one email.  Thanks in  advance for
>>  any insight that you can provide.
>>
>>  Shickeytha
>>
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>> --
>> "All men dream, but not equally.  Those who dream by night in the dusty
>> recesses of their minds, wake in the day to find that it was
>> vanity:
>> but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act on  their
>> dreams with open eyes, to make them possible." T.  E.
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