[nagdu] training methods of schools

Star Gazer pickrellrebecca at gmail.com
Fri Sep 20 15:12:29 UTC 2013 

Thank you Julie and Raven. Once I read Raven's description, Ithought "like
math" and it made sense. Before that, I'd been thinking of it in the social
context.

-----Original Message-----
From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Julie J.
Sent: Friday, September 20, 2013 8:28 AM
To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
Subject: Re: [nagdu] training methods of schools

Raven is correct about positive and negative punishment.  If you think of
positive and negative in the mathematical sense, it might help it make more
sense.  Positive means you are adding something and negative means you are 
removing something.   To me that's clearer than thinking of positive and 
negative in the cultural/social sense.

Anyway that's how I keep it straight,
Julie


-----Original Message-----
From: Raven Tolliver
Sent: Thursday, September 19, 2013 10:21 PM
To: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users
Subject: Re: [nagdu] training methods of schools

Hi,
The martingale check collar is made of a very thick, sturdy strip of nylon,
so I highly doubt any dog could just snap it in half. You can find these in
many places--pet stores, Amazon, other retailers. I'm sure a Google or
Amazon search would yield many results. As far as the function of a collar,
the slip chain does not have a limit to how tight it can get, and it
tightens in a way that puts pressure on the dog's throat, whereas the
martingale check cannot get any tighter than the width of the dog's neck,
and it applies pressure on all sides evenly.
Positive punishment is adding something that a dog  will work to avoid in
order to decrease the frequency of a behavior. A leash correction or harness
check, which is pushing the harness forward into the body and firmly pulling
it back,are perfect examples. All guide dog schools in the US use positive
punishment. I said that GDB uses negative punishment, which is removing
something a dog desires in order to decrease the frequency of a behavior.
The timeout that GDB uses is a perfect example. Another one is ignoring a
dog that begs at the dinner table. If the dog receives no attention for
begging, it will realize that this behavior does not yield a reward, and so
the behavior will stop or minimize. Hope that cleared things up.

On 9/19/13, minh ha <minh.ha927 at gmail.com> wrote:
> Maybe it does look better in public, but I know for my girl, her 
> throat is sensitive so a martingail is very effective, even with a 
> small leash correction. I'm not sure if this is what Raven is 
> referring to as I've never heard of the actual term "positive 
> punishment," but GDB uses timeouts for the dogs when they get 
> distracted. For instance, if we're walking down the street and Viva 
> sees another dog and gets all wiggly and excited, I would use the 
> leash to pull her in right next to my leg and just hold the leash 
> close to the collar and then just ignore her for about ten seconds.
> This method works really really well for certain dogs and not so well 
> for others.
>
> On 9/19/13, Tina Thomas <judotina48kg at gmail.com> wrote:
>> You are giving a leash correction when you tighten the leash to get 
>> your dog's attention. The only difference is the collar is made out 
>> of nylon so it looks better in public. Also what is this positive 
>> punishment GDB is using? Also, My girl is a GSD  with a very strong 
>> neck and I think that collar would not be affective. I'm willing to 
>> try it for myself. Where can I get this type of collar?
>> Tina and the girls
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of minh ha
>> Sent: Thursday, September 19, 2013 5:44 PM
>> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] training methods of schools
>>
>> Tina,
>>
>> What do you mean she could snap it in half? The martingail is made of 
>> nylon with a middle loop in the middle that tightens up when you do a 
>> leash correction.
>>
>> Minh
>>
>> On 9/19/13, Tina Thomas <judotina48kg at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> What is positive punishment? Also, I am A Seeing Eye Grad, and we do 
>>> use leash corrections and we also praise the dogs when they are 
>>> exhibiting the desired behavior. As far as clicker training, it was 
>>> used to target train the dogs. I have seen the collars that GDB is 
>>> currently using, and for me I wouldn't use it on my dog, because I 
>>> know
>> she would snap it in half.
>>> However, the collar looks  more  appealing to the public eye.
>>> Tina and the girls
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Raven 
>>> Tolliver
>>> Sent: Thursday, September 19, 2013 4:37 PM
>>> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] training methods of schools
>>>
>>> I believe the Seeing Eye also uses clicker training. I think they 
>>> are starting to phase in treat training as well. Treat training is 
>>> not necessary, but food is a primary reinforcer, so it's incredibly
useful.
>>> I think the Seeing Eye is still correction-heavy with their dogs though.
>>> GEB
>>> is somewhere between compulsion training and clicker training, 
>>> leaning more toward positive reinforcement training. I think GDB is 
>>> the most positive with their dogs. They use positive punishment, 
>>> positive reinforcement, and negative punishment. Also, they're 
>>> issuing a lot, not all, dogs with martingale check collars.
>>> Personally, I believe the martingale check should be the norm; I'm 
>>> sure it'll happen one day. Most of the dogs that are trained as 
>>> guides are eager to please, so it would be nice to see gentler ways 
>>> of handling and interacting with them, even when they misbehave.
>>>
>>> On 9/19/13, L Gwizdak <leg1950 at cox.net> wrote:
>>>> Guiding Eyes in New York and Guide Dogs for the Blind in California.
>>>>
>>>> Lyn and Landon
>>>> "Asking who's the man and who's the woman in an LGBT relationship 
>>>> is like asking which chopstick is the fork" - Unknown
>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>> From: "Danielle Sykora" <dsykora29 at gmail.com>
>>>> To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
>>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>>> Sent: Saturday, September 14, 2013 7:04 PM
>>>> Subject: [nagdu] training methods of schools
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Hi all,
>>>>>
>>>>> How do the different training methods differ between schools? 
>>>>> Which schools have begun to use more positive methods of training 
>>>>> such as food rewards and clicker training? I'm sorry this question 
>>>>> is so vague; however, I am truely curious. It is difficult to 
>>>>> determine this kind of information from a training program's 
>>>>> website so I thought it would be beneficial to ask those with 
>>>>> firsthand experience. Any information would be appreciated.
>>>>>
>>>>> Danielle
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>> et
>>>>
>>>>
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>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Raven
>>>
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>>
>>
>> --
>> "All men dream, but not equally. Those who dream by night in the 
>> dusty recesses of their minds, wake in the day to find that it was
vanity:
>> but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act on 
>> their dreams with open eyes, to make them possible." T. E. Lawrence
>>
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>
>
> --
> "All men dream, but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty 
> recesses of their minds, wake in the day to find that it was vanity:
> but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act on 
> their dreams with open eyes, to make them possible." T. E. Lawrence
>
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>


--
Raven

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