[nagdu] finishing thoughts on, An Introduction
Valerie Gibson
valandkayla at gmail.com
Sat Aug 23 23:33:58 UTC 2014
Hi,
I just saw the "change the subject email".
Second, I remembered a question I did not answer.
I think most breeders will name their dogs based on the alphabet. It's not just guide dogs. Zion's breeder named him "Hawk" because she was in the H's.
I named him Zion after Mount Zion, the city of David.
On Aug 23, 2014, at 2:49 PM, Nicole Torcolini <ntorcolini at wavecable.com> wrote:
> Coming into this thread rather late, so this email is going to be a rather
> long one.
> First, Valerie, welcome to the list. You have already read some of my posts;
> I just did not get a chance to officially welcome you as my work does not
> always leave as much time as I would like to read/write emails. Glad that
> you decided to come out of the shadows and join the lively discussions. A
> little about myself to help explain some of my responses to various
> discussions. My name is Nicole Torcolini. I live in California with my
> female black lab, Lexia, who I received from Guide Dogs for the Blind in
> July of 2007. At the time, GDB used more correction based training rather
> than reward based training. In addition, the family pet who we had had for a
> little over six years was an extremely stubborn Border Collie mix who came
> from the humane society at about six or seven months without a "clean
> slate". So, the training methods that I had at the time were a mixture of
> what GDB had taught, which was largely correction based, and those methods
> that worked well with a Border Collie. Some of the methods worked fine, even
> though people would look at me like I was crazy; some of them worked
> partially; and some of them either did not work at all or were just not
> necessary.
> I am glad that you did not let the fact that people think that a blind
> person cannot train a dog bother you. I don't get that kind of stuff too
> often, but, when I do, it really makes me mad.
> I also like learning about animals. I find it interesting that certain
> animals/breeds are motivated by different things. I also find measuring the
> intelligence of different animals interesting. For example, someone might
> say that cats are smarter than dogs, but they are basing that on how well
> the animals follow commands, which is not necessarily always an accurate
> measurement of intelligence.
> In addition to the aspects of dogs that you mentioned, I think that another
> important fact to remember is that, even though dogs have been domesticated
> for centuries, they still act on instinct, so teaching them to act on
> reasoning is not always easy. Whenever a dog feels frightened, excited, etc,
> the dog is more likely to revert to instincts rather than reasoning. I
> disagree on why hard tempered dogs will try to lead. Is it also not a
> possibility that their mothers were not firm enough?
> As far as the breed goes, whatever works for you. There is one list member
> who trains her own dogs who also uses a wheelchair. She uses Huskies.
> Yes, there are many different training methods, some of which some people do
> not like. I am not saying that training your own dog is a bad thing, but you
> might want to consider being a little more cautious about what implications
> you make about people who get their dogs from programs. As I said in a
> different thread, there is a difference in *want* and *can*.
> That being said, there are definitely certain unwanted behaviors that can
> come with a program trained dog.
> I am glad that it would not have been the end of the world for you if Zion
> did not become a guide dog. Just understand that that is not the case for
> some of us, and that not everyone has the time, energy, patience, and
> resources, particularly money, to throw at obtaining and training a dog if
> they do not know if it will work out. Yes, program dogs can also not work
> out, but the programs are prepared for this to happen.
> I am glad that the breeder listened to well. I have never bought an animal
> from a breeder, but I imagine that, sometimes, a breeder might not care what
> you think.
> I am curious to know if Zion went when you took him out in the middle of the
> night. I know that he was a puppy, so things were obviously a little
> different, but, unless there was a water bowl in his crate and he drank a
> lot at night, I would doubt that he would need to go out in the middle of
> the night. Again, just curious.
> It sounds like you are taking a preemptive strike at some of the problems
> that guide dog handlers often face, such as people petting the dog.
> I definitely agree that the one size fits all does not work for training
> techniques. As I said above, the family pet was a Border Collie mix, and the
> difference between her obedience and Lexia's obedience was night and day.
> Of course, everyone has a right to his/her own opinion, but, just as a
> warning, the whole documentation issue is generally frowned upon by most
> members of the list. I won't go into details, but we have been round and
> round and up and down over the issue, with the end result always being that,
> even though not apparent at first, requiring documentation would just cause
> more problems than it would cause. Feel free to browse the archives if you
> want more info. Also, as a side note, if you ever don't feel like browsing
> the internet archives, I can send you some of the older emails if you want
> them as I safe almost all of the emails.
> Interesting about starting the harness training at seven months.
> Oh, yes, he will figure out what you want. Probably, there will come a day
> when he starts training himself. Even labs do that. You stop at a bench and
> sit down. The next time you go by that bench, Zion will show it to you.
> Okay, maybe not the second time, but, if you do it often enough, it does not
> take long. And you may even find him trying to leash lead you some day in
> the future, even though you did not teach him that. With Lexia, a lot of her
> commands are a result of her observing what made me happy or what I did most
> often and her trying to make me happy. Even the off leash commands that I
> have for her were more her own doing than mine.
> I am really glad that you realize that he is not ready for certain things,
> and that you do not set him up to fail. I think that some people, although
> certainly not on purpose, would do this and then blame the dog.
> Also, out of curiosity, what exactly do you mean by *correct*?
> I definitely agree with not wanting to train aggressive dogs.
> Out of curiosity, is there any history behind the name Zion? As a random
> fact, different programs have different methods for naming their dogs, which
> also varies depending on whether or not they take donated dogs. Many of the
> programs keep their own breeding stocks, which, JMHO, is the better thing to
> do, even if it costs more, because it is possibly to closely monitor any
> genetic problems and hopefully weed them out. GDB keeps its own breeding
> stock. All puppies in a litter at GDB have names that start with the same
> first letter. Some of the schools, including GDB, try not to have more than
> one dog out in the field with the same name, so they tend to run out of
> names, which is why you can get some pretty interesting dog names. And yes,
> keep us posted on Zion's training. If it turns out that the rest of the list
> is not interested, I certainly am.
>
> Larry, I would be interested in hearing more about the Jack Russle as I know
> that they can be a handful at times. I, too, don't have a problem with well
> behaved pet dogs. Although this might make people mad, I would rather have a
> well behaved pet around than a misbehaving service dog. No, pets don't
> belong certain places, but it's more of a problem if the pet is misbehaving.
>
> Tami, I love the way that you always manage to put a positive spin on
> things. The problem that I sometimes find with trying to teach Lexia new
> things is that she gets so excited about the clicker that she completely
> misses what I am trying to teach her. Ugh, yes, I hate it when you ask for
> certain information, or you don't ask for any at all, and you get unwanted
> advice.
>
> That's neat that Zion seems to be able to tell when people could use a
> little help. Yes, dogs know who the dog lovers are. That is good that Zion
> is showing you that he does not like certain people in a nonaggressive way.
> I would caution against over using the protective trait too much. I do not
> think that he would ever bite or snap at someone, but, if he did, I do not
> think that being a service dog is enough to get out of being in trouble for
> that. The "are you doing what I told you to" debate is definitely an
> interesting one. Lexia will also turn before lying down if there is
> something that she wants to see. Whether or not I make her lay down in the
> original direction depends on a lot of things. For example, if I am out in
> public and trying to keep her in my space and away from other people, I
> might make lay down in the original direction. That is interesting that Zion
> stopped for the pole; most dogs would have just gone around it, that is,
> being that there was a way around it. And, yes, I know what you mean about
> sighted people who just will not let it be. There is one person in
> particular with whom I do not like walking because, no matter how many times
> I point out that I have a guide dog and that I have somehow managed to not
> get killed when that person is not with me, that person will not shut up.
> Use whatever harness works for you. I don't think that any two schools use
> the same harness. Although the part of the harness that goes around the dog
> is the same at one school, most schools have up to four different
> handles--long, regular, offset, and ergonomic. I have an offset handle
> because my feet tend to turn out.
>
> Julie, they do the extra leash thing at GDB, or at least they did when I was
> there. However, they unhooked it on our first walk, the same walk where
> there was a bee flying around Lexia's head.
>
> Rox, I think that, in any art, a person who also does it is going to better
> at training/making than someone who does not.
>
> Valerie, there is absolutely nothing wrong with using a prong collar,
> especially since it is the only thing that works. I absolutely hate it when
> you tell someone that you use such-and-such equipment, and they immediately
> go on the whole animal cruelty thing. There are different tools for
> different things, and every tool can be misused. I know that it is not funny
> about the gentle leader, but I cannot help laughing. Most of the guide dogs
> that I have met who wear them try to rub them off on you.
>
> Julie and all, another thing to remember, especially with dogs that learn
> fast, is to never laugh at something. We made that huge mistake with the pet
> Border Collie mix. It only takes once. Then, what you once thought was funny
> and took only once for the dog to start doing over and over again becomes
> this really annoying habit that you just cannot get rid of.
>
> Nicole and Lexia
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of The Pawpower Pack
> via nagdu
> Sent: Saturday, August 23, 2014 11:37 AM
> To: Valerie Gibson; NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog
> Users
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] An Introduction
>
> I think this is correct in many cases,
> But in the case of my Doberman it was not. She's very high drive but does
> not have much of a pull at all, but I can read her movements very clearly.
> Before she got kidney disease, she could run for miles, chase the ball, and
> guide all day and her pull was never hard.
> The only dog I had a problem with, pull and pacewise was Gracy my border
> collie. Her pull and pace were both too little for me. She was also very
> short, so I think if she'd have been taller, like Laveau my dobe is, the
> lack of pull wouldn't have been that big of a deal.
>
> Rox and the kitchen Bitches:
> Mill'E, Laveau, Soleil
> Pawpower4me at gmail.com
> Sent from my iPhone
>
>> On Aug 23, 2014, at 10:48 AM, Valerie Gibson via nagdu <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> wrote:
>>
>> Hi,
>>
>> Granted, I don't use Zion as a guide in harness for very long (only when
> we're going to very familiar places and I know he can do the job), but
> akitas are very long dogs. In fact, they are longer than they are tall, and
> they are about 24 to 26 in ches at the withers on average. You'd think then
> that he would be a very fast walker. Given that the breed was bred to pull
> down game is another indecator. I've seen him run with other dogs when he
> plays, and he does have some speed to him.
>>
>> It's funny because he really only likes to walk fast when he's got to use
> the restroom. I guess that fast pace gets his bowels moving. Apart from
> that and/or if he's destracted, he walks at a pace I'm comfortable with,
> which may seem slow for him, but he does it nonetheless.
>>
>> Because Zion is a working dog breed, sometimes, when we're just out and
> about, I'll use a cane and put a backpack on him. When he was much younger,
> the backpack would be empty because he was still growing. Even now, the
> backpack doesn't carry a lot of things because he's still growing, but for
> some reason, with the backpack on, it helped me help him find my walking
> speed. I'd praise him when he walked at that speed.
>>
>> One of the reasons I chose this breed was because he's not a high
>> energy dog. He'll definitely give you activity if it's asked of him,
>> but he is very flexible in that area. I'm sure he could hike for a
>> couple miles when he's older if i wanted/needed, but he's also okay
>> laying around or going for a casual stroll.I think the pull factor is
>> based on a lot of variables, not just size such as: drive, breed *what
>> was it originally bred to do), size, and handler. I don't think
>> temperment has anything to do with pull. I think the word you're
>> looking for is drive. :) You can have a soft tempered dog with a high
>> drive, and that dog may pul you down the street if not trained to walk
>> at a certain pace. You could have a stubborn hard tempered dog with a
>> low drive (and I can't think of any breeds off the top of my head like
>> this), but they might not want to walk you any where. lol
>>
>> When I got Zion, I didn't know too much of the temperament I was looking
> for in a guide, but I knew I wanted a certain temperament in the dog, and
> that's what I told the breeder. The temperament of the dog will determine
> how he responds to various stimuli, and that will affect drive or the dog's
> willingness to work.
>>
>> Ideally, i would have loved to see the puppies and how they interacted
> with each other, their mother and other dogs for a day or so per week to
> find the perfect puppy, but the breeder knew how important it was to find
> the temperament I specified. She had never worked with guide dogs, but she
> knew how important he would be. I was blessed that she picked out a dog
> with a great temperament. He's actually more of a soft tempered dog than my
> pet akita that I had as a child. This made it easier for me to train him in
> things such as walking at my pace because I could more easily control his
> drive.
>>
>> Hope this all makes sense and wasn't too long. :)
>>
>>> On Aug 23, 2014, at 8:08 AM, The Pawpower Pack via nagdu
> <nagdu at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>>>
>>> Buddy, Ginger and all,
>>> My dogs, with the exception of one, always just walked at my speed. Pull
> has varried with me a little more, but nothing too hard. It is easier to
> get a hard puller to pull less than a no-puller to pull, so I do prefer the
> dog pull and me bring it down to a reasonable level for me. I do not teach
> a formal heel. My dog is always walking in a guiding position with a very
> little tension on the lead.
>>> My current dog is a morning person, and she is a faster walker and a
> harder puller on our morning walk to the bus and work, but it's not out of
> control, and I'm ok with walking a little faster in the morning. It will
> wake me up, and it's actually a really neat feeling. The rest of the time
> she travels at a more normal pace. I don't know if she does this because
> she is a very young and live out loud lab, or if she is suited to her name
> and is a sunny morning dog.
>>>
>>> Rox and the kitchen Bitches:
>>> Mill'E, Laveau, Soleil
>>> Pawpower4me at gmail.com
>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>
>>>> On Aug 23, 2014, at 8:51 AM, Buddy Brannan via nagdu <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> The last sighted trainer who said much of anything on this list was
> Doug, and that was ages ago. Like a couple years, probably. About the
> closest person to anyone who works for a guide dog school on the list would
> be Jenine Stanley and Ginger Kutsch, and I can guarantee you neither of them
> will give anyone a bad time about owner training.
>>>>
>>>> Speaking of, Ginger asked a question a couple weeks ago, to which I
> haven't seen an answer. I'm curious to see what other people say about it.
> She asked how owner trainers can ensure they get a dog that matches your
> particular pace and pull preferences, as that's a big consideration in
> matching at guide dog schools, and something they work pretty hard to match.
> I have a couple thoughts on this that have absolutely no basis in anything
> like, I don't know, experience.
>>>>
>>>> How much of a dog's natural walking speed and amount of pull into the
> harness is based on temperament and genetics, and how much is based on
> upbringing and environment? I, anyway, have no clue, but I suspect there's
> more of it that's based on the latter than the former. That is to say, how
> fast did the puppy raisers walk or expect their dogs to walk? How much, and
> how far ahead, did they allow the puppy to pull ahead on the leash? Of
> course,I suppose some of this *will* be personality or genetics, some dogs
> just have more get up and go than others. Still, I'd also suspect that a dog
> who has been working with someone from early days would have a pretty good
> idea of that person's walking speed preferences. Pull seems to be something
> worked out over time. With all three of my dogs, they've started out with
> often quite a strong pull, but over time, it's always moderated to something
> very similar in all three. I've always asked for a dog with a at least
> moderate pull, at least in part because I like a bit more of that, but in
> larger part because it would seem to me that it's easier to get a dog to
> pull less than to get him to pull more.
>>>>> On Aug 23, 2014, at 7:37 AM, Julie J. via nagdu <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> If there are sighted trainers on this list, they never contribute any
> posts or haven't in a such a very long time that we've all forgotten about
> them. There are a few people who work for or represent various guide dog
> programs, but they won't give you a hard time about owner training. Not
> everyone on this list is a fan of owner training and they might speak up
> about their views, however you won't be put down or disrespected for your
> choices. You might be asked questions or someone might explain why they see
> things differently, but seriously no one is going to send out the guide dog
> police on you.
>>>>>
>>>>> You asked why we chose the breeds we did so here goes. Tia was my
> first guide. She was a Tennessee Treeing Walker Coonhound. I didn't choose
> her because of her breed. I chose to train Tia because she was already in
> my home. I didn't want another dog until I knew for sure that I could train
> a guide dog. She was my experiment to see if I could train a guide or if I
> was off my rocker. Back then I didn't know a single other owner trainer and
> the internet was not what it is today.
>>>>>
>>>>> Belle was my next guide. She is a lab and something mix. I used to
> think greyhound because of her body shape, but in recent years I'm leaning
> toward German Shepherd. I chose her because of her temperament. I wanted
> a dog who was good with other dogs, cats, was curious about her environment,
> easily trained, was okay with all sorts of people etc.
>>>>>
>>>>> Monty is my next guide. I am still working him part time as well as
> Jetta part time. Monty is a lab and Boxer mix. I wanted a shorter haired
> dog this time. I love his work ethic. Even now when he's older, slowing
> down and anxious he still wants to go. In harness he is focused on the
> work. He does not want to be petted or interact with random people on the
> street. I appreciate that.
>>>>>
>>>>> Jetta is a Doberman. She was trained by Meghan because I didn't have
> the time to devote to her training to do it properly. She has been here
> less than a week. I chose the Doberman because it is a working breed. She
> isn't into socializing with random people or really much of anyone besides
> me. I appreciate her short coat, intelligence, trainability, work ethic,
> size, attention to detail, precision and ease of handling. The biggest
> challenge with her so far is her testing. Dobermans are a breed who need a
> strong leader, but you can't be harsh with them. Once we get the rules
> sorted out and she understands what is expected, we'll be good to go, but
> until then it feels like a battle of wills. She is a very strong willed
> thing! That will be a huge asset in the long run because she won't give in
> if I tell her forward when it's the wrong time. Her intelligent obedience
> will be well developed or at least that is what I'm told by other Doberman
> owners.
>>>>>
>>>>> Julie
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message----- From: Valerie Gibson via nagdu
>>>>> Sent: Friday, August 22, 2014 3:41 PM
>>>>> To: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] An Introduction
>>>>>
>>>>> Hi,
>>>>>
>>>>> So far I've tried the approach where I'll use the leash to correct him
> while holding the harness when he's destracted. I also don't do a lot of
> harness work unless I'm sure he can handle it. It's just some times there's
> a dog nearby. I live in a city where it's very common to see dogs with
> their owners out and about. If we're in an area where I believe he won't
> train as well such as an outdoor mall, I'll just do leash work until we've
> built up to that point. I don't know how, but I can usually tell when he's
> ready for something a little harder. I may just subcontiously keep track of
> his handling of the easier things and move onto harder things gradually
> without thinking about it.
>>>>>
>>>>> I think the reason I explain myself so much is because I know there
> must be sighted trainers here, and due to the discouragement I've gotten
> since I've had zion, it's become reflex. I'll try to work on that. :) I'm
> actually not used to so much support with this, so defending my methods and
> decisions just pops up.
>>>>>
>>>>> On a slightly different note, what made you guys train the breeds you
> do?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> On Aug 22, 2014, at 2:10 PM, Julie J. <julielj at neb.rr.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> LOL You didn't make me feel meek! I'm just trying to explain to you
> that you don't have to explain your decisions. Seriously owner trainers are
> really okay with existing outside of the box, so to speak.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> And would you please explain to my Doberman about being obedient? She
> didn't get that memo. I've only had her since Sunday evening and she is
> most definitely testing all the boundaries. I'm sure once she figures out
> that I'm really for serious about the rules, she'll be more obedient, but
> today well...
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I do get what you are saying about the trainability of the breeds you
> listed, but it's a double edged sword. Yes, the Doberman can learn
> something with only a handful of repetitions, sometimes just once is enough.
> that's cool, until you goof as a trainer. If your dog needs 50 repetitions
> to learn something and you mess up on number 35, it is going to average out
> and the dog will get what you want. If your dog only needs 5 repetitions
> and you goof, the odds just went way up that you've just trained the wrong
> thing. Dogs that need more repetitions do need more patience to train, but
> dogs with a high trainability need a high level of consistency. So I guess
> it comes down to what the strengths of the trainer are or what the trainer
> is willing to do to work with the dog.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I don't know your training approach, so I'll offer a couple of
> solutions that immediately come to mind. Feel free to use what works and
> ignore the rest.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> You can use the leash in your right hand to apply gentle pressure
> forward. This requires a pretty flexible person with a good sense of balance
> because it is physically difficult to have one hand on the handle with
> pressure back, one arm out forward keeping the dogs head forward and to keep
> walking. It also leaves you with only the ability to offer verbal praise.
> It does work though. This is what worked best with Belle, my guide before
> Monty.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> With Monty I used an incompatible behavior. He was most distracted by
> other dogs. So at first if he saw another dog, I'd turn and go directly
> back the way I just came from. This breaks his line of sight of the dog
> and gets his attention back on me. Once he was behaving, I'd turn back
> toward the dog. Each time I'd work him just a tiny bit closer to the other
> dog. In one session we might only make it a few feet closer. It is easiest
> if there are dogs behind fences to work with because they will stay the same
> distance away and won't break away from the owner accidentally.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> If the dog was on a leash with its owner I might move up into a
> driveway or yard and get Monty to sit or nose target my hand. anything that
> he could be successful with while the other dog passed by. I'd reward for
> him doing anything, no matter how small, that wasn't to do with the other
> dog.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> If your dog is not distracted by other dogs the above method will
> still work, you just have to figure out what he's distracted by and work
> back and forth to and from it until he can successfully ignore it. So if
> it's the smells from a bakery, you could walk close enough until he just
> starts to show the first signs of being distracted, then you back track and
> praise/give reward for his attention back on you. Then back toward the
> bakery praising and rewarding for good posture and attention until you
> anticipate he will become distracted, then move away. You want to plan for
> as much success as possible.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Monty was very extremely dog distracted. When I was first working
> with him he would literally jump up and down and make the most pitiful
> whining noises because he wanted to play with the other dogs. There were
> times I couldn't get far enough away from the other dog in time and I'd just
> have to hold on to the leash and wait until the other dog was gone. It
> took months and months to get him past this problem.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Honestly your dog sounds like a normal adolescent dog. they all test
> the boundaries. You just have to keep at it and work on the underlying
> issue. It might be helpful to back off on the harness part of training until
> he is less distracted. It will help him to build a really solid foundation
> skill without splitting your concentration and effort between two different
> things, distractions and harness work. Or you could practice harness work
> in a lower distraction area where he won't sniff or look and work on his
> distractions without the harness in places where he struggles.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Oh, I just thought of another approach. Sometimes just stopping,
> having the dog sit, and letting him look at whatever he is interested in can
> be enough to satisfy his curiosity. then you can have him stand and be on
> your way again, distraction over. I think it really depends on the
> particular dog and how they make sense of the world.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Best of luck,
>>>>>> Julie
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -----Original Message----- From: Valerie Gibson via nagdu
>>>>>> Sent: Friday, August 22, 2014 1:35 PM
>>>>>> To: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] An Introduction
>>>>>>
>>>>>> First, it was not my intention to give off the impression that dog
> trainers were meek. Forgive me if I made you feel that way.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> My point is that goldens,labs, poodles, even dobermens, germain
>>>>>> sheperds, etc all ranks 1 through 10 in trainability. They'll
>>>>>> obey a command 95% of the time. (See
>>>>>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Intelligence_of_Dogs)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I don't want to make it sound like it's not hard to train those dogs,
> but they pick up on things much faster, so in a sense, yeah, you don't need
> as much patience with those dogs, generally speaking, as you would with an
> akita.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Second, I know why he veers/curls. He wants to sniff or go over to
> the direction he's curling toward. My uestion was more how to control this
> and if it's something i should be particularly worried about given his age
> and the reason why, not why he's doing it.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Thank you
>>>>>>> On Aug 22, 2014, at 12:25 PM, Julie J. <julielj at neb.rr.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> You know, of all the owner trainers I know there is one who has a Lab
> and that's Rox and all her previous owner trained guides were not labs.
> There are Border Collies, GSD's, Poodles, Dobermans and all sorts of mixes.
> Owner trainers don't seem to lean toward Labs as their preferred breed. Also
> I have never met a meek owner trainer. We all seem to be confident, and
> self assured or fake it really well. Yes, there are moments of doubt and
> feelings of utter failure, but you put on the big kid underpants and deal.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Traffic training refers to the process of teaching the dog to respect
> traffic and keep the handler out of harms way from traffic. The exact
> process varies from owner trainer to owner trainer or program to program, I
> suppose. The end result is all the same...a dog who will actively avoid
> letting you become road pizza.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Your curling or veering issue can be caused from a variety of things.
> If your posture or alignment is out of whack, it can cause the dog to try to
> compensate. If you are putting pressure on the handle unevenly it can cause
> the dog to lean into the higher pressure point. An ill fitting harness or
> too short handle could cause this too. Being distracted is a big one as is
> a bit of confusion or uncertainty in a particular area. Most dogs will curl
> in toward the handler if they are being extra cautious or visually checking
> for a tight clearance situation. If it only lasts for a few steps and the
> dog gets back facing forward, I wouldn't worry about it. If it's happening
> frequently or for long stretches, then I'd start experimenting to see how to
> address it.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Julie
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- From: Valerie Gibson via nagdu
>>>>>>> Sent: Friday, August 22, 2014 12:46 PM
>>>>>>> To: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog
>>>>>>> Users
>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] An Introduction
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Hi guys,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Just another quick question, but I feel a bit out of the loop here on
> something. What do you guys mean by "traffic training". I mean, I think I
> understand what you mean,but I just want to make sure we're on the same
> page.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Also, what are your methods for teaching this.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> In regards to philosophy. I teach zion with posative reenforcement
> until he has mastered a command. Once I know he's mastered it, I move onto
> correctional methods. For him, I use a prong collar. With that being said,
> I'd like to add a couple comments.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> First, I know how to use one, and I won't let anyone take the leash
> of my dog (even if they're a friend and trying to help), if they do not know
> how to use one. I've seen them misused, and I can see why they get such a
> bad rep for it.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Second, the prong collar is not for every dog. My dog is one of the
> spitz breeds, much like the husky. If you've seen a husky, you know what I
> mean. For those who haven't, he's literally a fluf ball. I think a few
> enches of his hight is taken up by fur. He's got a course outer coat and a
> very dense wooly undercoat. The prong collar is the only collar that I know
> will reach his skin.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Third, Because I know he's gotten a command down, I really hardly
> ever have to use it accept in cases of high destractions, and even then it's
> a rare thing. Usualy, we'll be walking forward, he'll se another dog, look
> at that dog and whine, but continue walking forward.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> When Zion is especially distracted, I'll put the gentle leader on
> him, and honestly, he hates it more than the prong collar. I think I've
> gotten more comments on animal cruelty with the gentle leader than the prong
> collar, and that's just because he makes such a fuss over it.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The gentle leader has it's place, but I don't consider it a training
> collar because there's no correction given. Well, I think the only way it
> could be use in training is that it can teach a dog right and left pretty
> easily.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> And now for my last question.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I'd be eager and excited to start a devision for blind dog trainers,
> since there's not one. How would I get the ball rolling on this? I
> envision changing the world in regards to dog training by this. I imagine a
> devision like this to be a place where we could talk about training
> philosophies as wel as nonvisual ways to train a dog, a way where we could
> reach out to blind pet owners and let our trained dogs speak for themselves
> in regards to our training, a place and way to reach out to sighted trainers
> who'd be willing to give us a shot and offer some pointers for what we might
> need, a way to train dogs for other blind people, etc.
>>>>>>> Quick side note, I usually don't like training dogs for other people.
> With the akita, it's ill advised because they form such strong and long
> lasting attachments with the handler, it's better to owner train them in any
> work they may do.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> As stated before, akitas were bred to think and do their job without
> step by step instruction from the handler because they were bred for
> hunting. With the retrievers like the lab and golden, the owner gave a
> command, which was usually to retrieve, and the dog carried it out. This
> makes them, what we'd call, eager to please.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> If I do train a dog for someone else, especially if it were a guide
> dog, I'd prefer to have the dog live with it's owner handler, and that
> person would take on the responsibilities of taking care of it. This
> provides the owner handler with more time to bond with the dog.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> There have been times when I've gotten frustrated and had to take a
> deep breath when it comes to Zion. Having to take him out every 3 hours,
> dealign with horrible bout of clostridium, dealing with health issues that
> didn't affect his training but health issues nonetheless, cleaning up after
> him when he decides to throw a completely full bowl of water across my
> livingroom, etc. But I wouldn't trade those moments for anything. They will
> be memories I will look back on and cherish. I'm sure puppy raisers can
> relate to this, and I think blind people who want a guide dog trained by a
> blind person should have these memories.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Also, I can see a problem where you'd have a trainer taking a dog in,
> training it, and because the trainer has more of a hard temperment the dog
> responds. If the new owner handler has a softer temperment the dog may
> think, "this guy's no leader,he's a pushover. I'll obey this person while my
> real leader's around, but once they leave, I shall walk all over this new
> guy who thinks he can tell me what to do". I'm probably still thinking of
> the akita breed, but Zion refuses to listen to anyone else when they give
> him a command. Acording to sighted people, he looks at them like, "and who
> are you to tell me what to do?" Then he'll look at me. Possibly with a dog
> that's eager to please, you won't have this problem.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> But that's just my perspective. It does not mean that it's wrong
>>>>>>> or right or better. If it's worked for you to take a dog on and
>>>>>>> train it for a blind person, more power to you. :)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Please let me know how to get the ball rolling on a division for
> blind dog trainers, and I'll jump on that.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> ThanksOn Aug 22, 2014, at 9:08 AM, Danielle Sykora via nagdu
> <nagdu at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Hi Valerie and all,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I am also very interested in dog training and I think it would
>>>>>>>> be beneficial to many people to form a dog training division. I
>>>>>>>> plan on owner training a dog in the future because I don't agree
>>>>>>>> with forceful methods of training among other things common to most
> programs.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> My dog does the same thing where he will move forward but angle
>>>>>>>> either to the left or right, usually when he is distracted by
>>>>>>>> something. In this situation, I tell him "straight" and praise
>>>>>>>> him when he looks straight ahead.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I have never found it difficult to read a dog's body language,
>>>>>>>> as long as they are on leash or close enough for me to touch
>>>>>>>> them. I can detect aggression in a dog before any vocalization,
>>>>>>>> freezing, staring, tail position etc.
>>>>>>>> I hope all goes well with Zion's training.
>>>>>>>> Danielle and Thai
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On 8/22/14, Dan Weiner via nagdu <nagdu at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> The only thig I'mimagining you would definitely need help with
>>>>>>>>> is traffic checking since you, after all don't drive a car--smile.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Dan
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>>>> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of
>>>>>>>>> Cindy Ray via nagdu
>>>>>>>>> Sent: Friday, August 22, 2014 8:20 AM
>>>>>>>>> To: Julie J.; NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of
>>>>>>>>> Guide Dog Users
>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] An Introduction
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I have never trained a dog to guide and never will. I believe I
>>>>>>>>> can imagine that you wouldn't need a sighted trainer to help
>>>>>>>>> you. There could be a few things that someone who is sighted
>>>>>>>>> and whom you also trusted could help with. Sometimes they could
>>>>>>>>> see that your dog is posturing, for instance, about another
>>>>>>>>> dog, especially if it hasn't gotten to the stage where it is
>>>>>>>>> being vocal about it. However, it wouldn't be long before you
>>>>>>>>> were keenly aware of that fact without that help, so I can see
> being able to do this with very little sighted help.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Cindy
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On Aug 22, 2014, at 5:40 AM, Julie J. via nagdu <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Debby,
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I just received Jetta, who was trained and placed with me by a
>>>>>>>>>> blind
>>>>>>>>> trainer. I am an experienced guide dog handler and I'm certain
>>>>>>>>> that makes a difference here. Meghan followed behind Jetta and
>>>>>>>>> I either with her cane or with a sighted guide. She had no
>>>>>>>>> difficulty keeping up when she was using her cane. If I
>>>>>>>>> noticed Jetta doing something, like curling in toward me, I
>>>>>>>>> would mention it to Meghan so she could offer suggestions. We
> skipped the
>>>>>>>>> part where the trainer clips a leash to the dog and walks alongside
> in the
>>>>>>>>> very beginning. I've never liked that anyway. I had no problems
> at all
>>>>>>>>> with our training arrangement. Meghan knows Jetta very well
>>>>>>>>> because she has worked her frequently and nonvisually. She
>>>>>>>>> could give me very specific information about how Jetta
>>>>>>>>> navigates her environment and what to expect.
>>>>>>>>> I
>>>>>>>>> believe that this was Meghan's first time independently placing
>>>>>>>>> a guide with
>>>>>>>>> a blind person. It was a new experience for both of us.
> Previously I
>>>>>>>>> had
>>>>>>>>> owner trained my guides.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> If a person was entirely new to guide dogs and dogs in general
>>>>>>>>>> I think
>>>>>>>>> there would have had to be a lot more training with the person.
> The blind
>>>>>>>>> trainer would have to ask lots of questions and check for
>>>>>>>>> proper positioning when the team was standing still. I think
>>>>>>>>> the blind trainer could use a sighted reader/describer to
>>>>>>>>> assess some of the visual elements.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> As far as traffic training goes...it can be done by a blind
>>>>>>>>>> person, the
>>>>>>>>> dog portion anyway. *smile* You just get a driver and explain
>>>>>>>>> very thoroughly what you need them to do. If you can set up
>>>>>>>>> ongoing communication during the traffic training by cell phone
>>>>>>>>> head sets or walkie talkies or something, that makes it much
> easier.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Julie
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- From: debby phillips via nagdu
>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Thursday, August 21, 2014 11:10 PM
>>>>>>>>>> To: nagdu at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] An Introduction
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Hi Valerie, your post was very interesting, and I can see that
>>>>>>>>>> you have put a lot of time and thought in to the process. I
>>>>>>>>>> do not believe that every blind person should and could train
>>>>>>>>>> their own dog, but I have seen one that was awesome. The man
>>>>>>>>>> who trained him did a great job. I believe though that his
>>>>>>>>>> next dog was from one of the schools. I think I do have a couple
> of concerns. One is this:
>>>>>>>>>> traffic is becoming more and more dangerous. It doesn't mean
>>>>>>>>>> that we should all stay home and never go out. Lol. But it
>>>>>>>>>> does mean that we, and our dogs need to be extra aware. Gone
>>>>>>>>>> are the days of simply listening for a surge of parallel
>>>>>>>>>> traffic and heading across the street. There are turning
>>>>>>>>>> lanes, right on red, and cars are just plain quieter, and I'm
>>>>>>>>>> not even talking about the hybrids. Seeing Eye does a lot of
>>>>>>>>>> traffic training with our dogs, some of it using the general
>>>>>>>>>> public and some of it that they set up. Keeping a certain
>>>>>>>>>> distance from traffic is important. So if you can find a
>>>>>>>>>> trainer who is willing to work with you on that part, I recommend
> that. I hope that ow am not sounding like I am against what you are doing,
> I'm not.
>>>>>>>>>> I admire you for your effort, and wish you success.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I may offend some folks when I say the following: I do not
>>>>>>>>>> believe that a blind person can train me with a dog. Dogs and
>>>>>>>>>> people move faster than people who travel with canes, (though
>>>>>>>>>> I know some very fast walkers who use canes. There are
>>>>>>>>>> certain parts of instruction that a blind person could do,
>>>>>>>>>> like some of the dog care, things like that. But instructors
>>>>>>>>>> see how the dog and person are walking together, they can
>>>>>>>>>> often figure out whether a different kind of harness is needed,
> for instance.
>>>>>>>>>> Right away, my instructor saw that I was not giving Neena
>>>>>>>>>> enough tension in the harness, and that sometimes I was
>>>>>>>>>> pushing her. I don't think that a blind instructor would see
>>>>>>>>>> that. In those early days of training it's so important to
>>>>>>>>>> get feedback, and I really believe, that at least in this
>>>>>>>>>> situation, that feedback needs to come from an instructor who
>>>>>>>>>> can make visual observations. Now, I have had two blind
>>>>>>>>>> mobility instructors, and they were awesome, and I had no
>>>>>>>>>> issue with them. But I think there's a difference between cane
> travel and traveling with a dog.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> It's okay if you disagree with me, I had a friend while I was
>>>>>>>>>> a student at CCB and we debated this issue a lot. He never
>>>>>>>>>> did convince me, by the way. (Grin). But it wasn't for lack
>>>>>>>>>> of trying. But that doesn't mean that I haven't learned a lot
>>>>>>>>>> from other people who use dogs as guides. I definitely have,
>>>>>>>>>> but not the basics, and not stuff dealing with dogs and traffic.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Well, I really need to be in bed now. Tomorrow is Friday, yea!
>>>>>>>>>> Maybe I'll get to more email then. Again, good luck, Valerie!
>>>>>>>>>> Debby and Neena
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>> nagdu mailing list
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>>>>>>>>> nagdu:
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>>>>>>>>>> eb.rr.co
>>>>>>>>>> m
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
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>>>>>>>>>> m
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
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