[nagdu] Arbitrary restrictions on playing with future guide dogs

Wed Aug 12 19:04:43 UTC 2015

Raven,

For the record, I'm not disagreeing with you. My experience tells me that dogs are all different, react to things differently, have different tolerance levels for things, and different motivations. Right or wrong, I still believe the motivation for such blanket "thou shalt not" rules is for ease in troubleshooting potential problems with hundreds of dogs and, consequently, hundreds of families. If everyone's doing the same things, one presumes that puts everyone on the same page. We all know it doesn't work like that in real life. 

--
Buddy Brannan, KB5ELV - Erie, PA
Phone: 814-860-3194 
Mobile: 814-431-0962
Email: buddy at brannan.name

> On Aug 12, 2015, at 2:51 PM, Raven Tolliver via nagdu <nagdu at nfbnet.org> wrote:
> 
> Vivianna,
> I understand what you and Buddy are saying. At the same time, my point
> was that if schools could believe that exposing pups to balls,
> frisbees, tug toys, etc can ruin or hinder their work, how could the
> same argument not apply to dogs with dog distractions being exposed to
> other dogs?
> You would think that dogs with strong dog distractions won't graduate,
> and I did  as well before I went to get a guide dog. I've been working
> such a dog for the past 3 years. He has a moderate-to-strong dog
> distraction. When we walk close by other dogs, I have to use verbal
> and sound cues to keep him focused and forward, otherwise, he will
> pull toward the other dog, 7 times out of 10. My puppy-raisers said he
> had a strong dog distraction as a pup, but they think it was not as
> extreme during guide training, which is why he graduated. So it's
> possible he regressed and the distraction increased after we got home.
> I am personally willing and able to work such a dog since it is his
> one and only flaw, and his guide work is perfect otherwise.
> 
> Like others, I think that people should be taught how to set rules
> during playtime with their dogs. If you try to shred the toy, it
> disappears. If you give me the toy, we keep playing. If you get rowdy
> and rough, we stop playing. Informing people about establishing such
> rules isn't impossible since they're already being educated about dog
> training in the house and in public.
> -- 
> Raven
> Founder of 1AM Editing & Research
> www.1am-editing.com
> 
> You are valuable because of your potential, not because of what you
> have or what you do.
> 
> Naturally-reared guide dogs
> https://groups.google.com/d/forum/nrguidedogs
> 
> 
> On 8/12/15, Tami Jarvis via nagdu <nagdu at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>> Raven,
>> 
>> I think it's nonsense (since that's the question you asked). First of
>> all, dogs can tell the difference between work and play. Or maybe they
>> think the job is just a different game? I sometimes wonder with mine.
>> 
>> On the theory that play is practice for life, I play a lot with my pups
>> and keep playing with them. For puppies, the running involved in fetch
>> is good conditioning, for learning to judge moving objects and for
>> learning cooperation. When they're puppies, I play the games they want
>> their way, and we just have fun. As they get a little older, I start
>> directing the play more and expecting them to follow some rules if they
>> want to keep playing. Just as human children do, the pup will start
>> trying to make rules for me and expecting me to follow them. It's pretty
>> funny sometimes and totally aggravating at other times. I think it adds
>> to the future work ethic, though, since the dog will be making decisions
>> for the two of us as a team. I let the youngun have fun learning that
>> some choices have good outcomes while others yield poor results. Fetch
>> is a good way for the pup to express its natural prey drive while
>> learning to control and use it in cooperation with a human and to let
>> the human determine how it will be used. There's such a great reward
>> system built into play that the learning happens naturally.
>> 
>> It's also easy to teach the puppy that if it rends the soft toys, the
>> toys will go away. Results may vary, but the natural reward system
>> teaches control of the rending and tearing instincts.
>> 
>> When I first had Mitzi, I heard or read that playing tug creates
>> aggression and that you should never let the puppy win at tug, blah,
>> blah. Bunk! It was with Daisy the crazy coonhound that I discovered that
>> letting the dog win at tug reduces aggressive play and makes for a nice,
>> gentle tug game. Rope toys are fairly safe, if you have a nice cotton
>> rope, and they can be good  for keeping teeth clean. With Loki, I've
>> used tug in teaching some retrieval skills to good effect. He gets
>> pretty wound up about tug, so we only do short sessions then change to
>> another game. We do tug when I say tug, and that's the reward for
>> bringing me the rope and putting it in my hand. He's pretty good about
>> letting go of the rope for "give," and the reward is that I throw it.
>> When he's too excited about tug, it's really hard for him to let go, so
>> he makes funny noises while he argues with himself.
>> 
>> I should think that if the puppy raisers have a clue about dogs and
>> enough sense to do the serious training they do with the pups, they
>> should be able to manage healthy play that enhances the dog's ability to
>> control its instincts in a way that will be beneficial on the job.
>> 
>> Tami
>> 
>> On 08/11/2015 07:20 PM, Raven Tolliver via nagdu wrote:
>>> As some of you know, I recently started working at LDB. One of the
>>> aspects of my job is handing puppies over to puppy-raisers, explaining
>>> to them basic dos and don'ts of raising, and going through the 16-page
>>> contract they have to sign.
>>> 
>>> One of the things we tell them not to do is play fetch with the dogs.
>>> Also, many of you know that the schools advise both raisers and
>>> clients against giving the dogs soft toys, such as stuffed animals,
>>> squeaky toys, or rope toys--anything they can tear apart easily.
>>> 
>>> I recently sat down with the director of training and asked him why
>>> they set these guidelines. He explained that LDB doesn't want to
>>> stimulate a dog's prey-drive. They don't want the dogs to be excited
>>> by moving objects or moving animals because it could translate into
>>> lunging after balls, animals, etc in harness.
>>> 
>>> I think this is ridiculous. I haven't raised a pup myself, so maybe
>>> there's something to it. But since I've brought my golden home, we
>>> play fetch with balls and frisbees, tug with stuffed animals or
>>> squeaky toys, and whenever the Golden Guy is in his kennel at work, I
>>> give him a stuffed golden retriever as a comfort object, though he
>>> probably doesn't need it. My coworkers were surprised that my dog will
>>> not chew the stuffed toy apart and rip the stuffing out of it.
>>> Also, I played fetch with him out in the hallways tonight, and the
>>> kennel care staff asked very sarcastically, "Wow, playing fetch
>>> doesn't ruin his work?" And we then had a long discussion about how
>>> the no-fetch advice is extremely unrealistic. They even told me that
>>> the trainers will play fetch with the dogs in the runs sometimes, and
>>> that there are many a tennis ball in the training trucks while dogs
>>> wait their turns to be with their trainers.
>>> 
>>> I understand all dogs are not the same. Some dogs will chew toys up if
>>> you let them, or if they're under stress. But you should monitor your
>>> dog with toys no matter what. Some dogs just have the prey-drive
>>> engrained in them and will go after moving objects and small animals
>>> regardless. But I don't think the ways we play with them mitigates or
>>> increases these behaviors. Retrievers were originally trained to
>>> fetch, and shepherds were trained to lead and chase. They can
>>> differentiate very well between what they do with toys out of harness,
>>> and what their job is when in-harness. Given, dogs have their
>>> distractions, but again, I don't think playtime has anything to do
>>> with it, unless play is used as a reward during work.
>>> Even then, the reward is offered after a cue is given, so if used
>>> properly, this kind of play would improve a dog's work, not ruin it.
>>> 
>>> Does anyone else find that the advice against fetch and soft toys is
>>> nonsense? Or Is it legit in your experience?
>>> 
>> 
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> 
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