[nagdu] Arbitrary restrictions on playing with future guide dogs

[Cindy Ray]

I think to set play rules is importat whether you are working with a guide
or other service dog or you are working with a pet. I think it isn't that
hard to do if you are consistent. I think that the schools may set some of
the kinds of rules discussed before the dogs are fully developed, but what
you do afterwards is your business so long as the dog is working well.
Cindy Lou Ray
cindyray at gmail.com


-----Original Message-----
From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Raven Tolliver
via nagdu
Sent: Wednesday, August 12, 2015 1:51 PM
To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
<nagdu at nfbnet.org>
Cc: Raven Tolliver <ravend729 at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [nagdu] Arbitrary restrictions on playing with future guide
dogs

Vivianna,
I understand what you and Buddy are saying. At the same time, my point was
that if schools could believe that exposing pups to balls, frisbees, tug
toys, etc can ruin or hinder their work, how could the same argument not
apply to dogs with dog distractions being exposed to other dogs?
You would think that dogs with strong dog distractions won't graduate, and I
did  as well before I went to get a guide dog. I've been working such a dog
for the past 3 years. He has a moderate-to-strong dog distraction. When we
walk close by other dogs, I have to use verbal and sound cues to keep him
focused and forward, otherwise, he will pull toward the other dog, 7 times
out of 10. My puppy-raisers said he had a strong dog distraction as a pup,
but they think it was not as extreme during guide training, which is why he
graduated. So it's possible he regressed and the distraction increased after
we got home.
I am personally willing and able to work such a dog since it is his one and
only flaw, and his guide work is perfect otherwise.

Like others, I think that people should be taught how to set rules during
playtime with their dogs. If you try to shred the toy, it disappears. If you
give me the toy, we keep playing. If you get rowdy and rough, we stop
playing. Informing people about establishing such rules isn't impossible
since they're already being educated about dog training in the house and in
public.
--
Raven
Founder of 1AM Editing & Research
www.1am-editing.com

You are valuable because of your potential, not because of what you have or
what you do.

Naturally-reared guide dogs
https://groups.google.com/d/forum/nrguidedogs


On 8/12/15, Tami Jarvis via nagdu <nagdu at nfbnet.org> wrote:
> Raven,
>
> I think it's nonsense (since that's the question you asked). First of 
> all, dogs can tell the difference between work and play. Or maybe they 
> think the job is just a different game? I sometimes wonder with mine.
>
> On the theory that play is practice for life, I play a lot with my 
> pups and keep playing with them. For puppies, the running involved in 
> fetch is good conditioning, for learning to judge moving objects and 
> for learning cooperation. When they're puppies, I play the games they 
> want their way, and we just have fun. As they get a little older, I 
> start directing the play more and expecting them to follow some rules 
> if they want to keep playing. Just as human children do, the pup will 
> start trying to make rules for me and expecting me to follow them. 
> It's pretty funny sometimes and totally aggravating at other times. I 
> think it adds to the future work ethic, though, since the dog will be 
> making decisions for the two of us as a team. I let the youngun have 
> fun learning that some choices have good outcomes while others yield 
> poor results. Fetch is a good way for the pup to express its natural 
> prey drive while learning to control and use it in cooperation with a 
> human and to let the human determine how it will be used. There's such 
> a great reward system built into play that the learning happens naturally.
>
> It's also easy to teach the puppy that if it rends the soft toys, the 
> toys will go away. Results may vary, but the natural reward system 
> teaches control of the rending and tearing instincts.
>
> When I first had Mitzi, I heard or read that playing tug creates 
> aggression and that you should never let the puppy win at tug, blah, 
> blah. Bunk! It was with Daisy the crazy coonhound that I discovered 
> that letting the dog win at tug reduces aggressive play and makes for 
> a nice, gentle tug game. Rope toys are fairly safe, if you have a nice 
> cotton rope, and they can be good  for keeping teeth clean. With Loki, 
> I've used tug in teaching some retrieval skills to good effect. He 
> gets pretty wound up about tug, so we only do short sessions then 
> change to another game. We do tug when I say tug, and that's the 
> reward for bringing me the rope and putting it in my hand. He's pretty 
> good about letting go of the rope for "give," and the reward is that I
throw it.
> When he's too excited about tug, it's really hard for him to let go, 
> so he makes funny noises while he argues with himself.
>
> I should think that if the puppy raisers have a clue about dogs and 
> enough sense to do the serious training they do with the pups, they 
> should be able to manage healthy play that enhances the dog's ability 
> to control its instincts in a way that will be beneficial on the job.
>
> Tami
>
> On 08/11/2015 07:20 PM, Raven Tolliver via nagdu wrote:
>> As some of you know, I recently started working at LDB. One of the 
>> aspects of my job is handing puppies over to puppy-raisers, 
>> explaining to them basic dos and don'ts of raising, and going through 
>> the 16-page contract they have to sign.
>>
>> One of the things we tell them not to do is play fetch with the dogs.
>> Also, many of you know that the schools advise both raisers and 
>> clients against giving the dogs soft toys, such as stuffed animals, 
>> squeaky toys, or rope toys--anything they can tear apart easily.
>>
>> I recently sat down with the director of training and asked him why 
>> they set these guidelines. He explained that LDB doesn't want to 
>> stimulate a dog's prey-drive. They don't want the dogs to be excited 
>> by moving objects or moving animals because it could translate into 
>> lunging after balls, animals, etc in harness.
>>
>> I think this is ridiculous. I haven't raised a pup myself, so maybe 
>> there's something to it. But since I've brought my golden home, we 
>> play fetch with balls and frisbees, tug with stuffed animals or 
>> squeaky toys, and whenever the Golden Guy is in his kennel at work, I 
>> give him a stuffed golden retriever as a comfort object, though he 
>> probably doesn't need it. My coworkers were surprised that my dog 
>> will not chew the stuffed toy apart and rip the stuffing out of it.
>> Also, I played fetch with him out in the hallways tonight, and the 
>> kennel care staff asked very sarcastically, "Wow, playing fetch 
>> doesn't ruin his work?" And we then had a long discussion about how 
>> the no-fetch advice is extremely unrealistic. They even told me that 
>> the trainers will play fetch with the dogs in the runs sometimes, and 
>> that there are many a tennis ball in the training trucks while dogs 
>> wait their turns to be with their trainers.
>>
>> I understand all dogs are not the same. Some dogs will chew toys up 
>> if you let them, or if they're under stress. But you should monitor 
>> your dog with toys no matter what. Some dogs just have the prey-drive 
>> engrained in them and will go after moving objects and small animals 
>> regardless. But I don't think the ways we play with them mitigates or 
>> increases these behaviors. Retrievers were originally trained to 
>> fetch, and shepherds were trained to lead and chase. They can 
>> differentiate very well between what they do with toys out of 
>> harness, and what their job is when in-harness. Given, dogs have 
>> their distractions, but again, I don't think playtime has anything to 
>> do with it, unless play is used as a reward during work.
>> Even then, the reward is offered after a cue is given, so if used 
>> properly, this kind of play would improve a dog's work, not ruin it.
>>
>> Does anyone else find that the advice against fetch and soft toys is 
>> nonsense? Or Is it legit in your experience?
>>
>
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