[nagdu] Guides at NFB training centers

Mon Aug 31 15:07:57 UTC 2015

Wrong.  If I want to go to a University but an aspect of that 
university's curriculum didn't work out for me, I could talk to an 
academic advisor to see if other arrangements can be worked out... and 
almost all of the time, they can.  It's about choice.

On 8/31/2015 09:52, Kaye Kipp via nagdu wrote:
> Okay.  Here's a thought.  I can see both sides of the issue, but when a
> person chooses to, say, go to a university or college, one looks at the
> curriculum and sees that there are certain courses one has to take in order
> to graduate.  A person can choose not to go to that particular university if
> one doesn't want to take those classes.  Is this any different?  I don't
> think so.  I could decide not to go to and NFB center if I don't want to
> leave my dog out of the mix.  Like I said, I see both sides.
>
> Kaye
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Marianne Denning
> via nagdu
> Sent: Monday, August 31, 2015 7:38 AM
> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
> Cc: Marianne Denning
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Guides at NFB training centers
>
> I have had dogs for 25 years and have used a cane between dogs on 3
> occasions.  I had to get to a bus, transfer buses downtown which involved
> walking 2 or 3 blocks.  I was successful doing this.  I certainly believe my
> cane skills could improve, as most of us can improve our cane skills.  I am
> not willing to risk the possible retirement of my dog so I can obtain this
> training.
>
> At this time, my recommendation will be that anyone go through the center
> training before obtaining a dog.  Unfortunately, that is not possible so
> each person must decide if training is more important than the potential
> need to go to school to obtain a new dog. This may be rare, but it does
> happen.
>
> On 8/31/15, larry d keeler via nagdu <nagdu at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>> As do I! What I don't get is that yyou can't use the dog during other
>> classes! I could even live with occasionally leaving the dog for an
>> hour or two for mobility and cane practice. Like you, I have grown up
> using a cane.
>> I have only in the last 10 years have used the dog. If I can prove I
>> have good cane skills, then why should I have to not use my dog?
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Elizabeth
>> Campbell via nagdu
>> Sent: Monday, August 31, 2015 8:21 AM
>> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
>> Cc: Elizabeth Campbell
>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Guides at NFB training centers
>>
>> All, I cannot emphasize the importance of keeping up your cane skills
>> even though working with a dog is your preferred travel method.
>> As you know, I had to retire my dog very suddenly, and believe me
>> there is a learning curve for me since I hadn't used my cane  as often
>> as I should, in my opinion.
>>
>> Having a good grounding in cane skills is essential for every blind
>> person given that life happens and you just never know when you will
>> be without your dog.
>> I didn't attend an NFB training center, but I understand the rules and
>> philosophy and the emphasis on the blindness skills training.
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Michael
>> Hingson via nagdu
>> Sent: Sunday, August 30, 2015 3:29 PM
>> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>> Cc: Michael Hingson <mike at michaelhingson.com>
>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Guides at NFB training centers
>>
>> All,
>>
>> I want to address comments by Lisa and Raven.
>>
>> First, the center staff asks students not to use guide dogs during
>> much of the training, including travel class, both in order to teach
>> cane travel and to provide lessons concerning orientation or what we
>> have come to know as "structured discovery". These concepts while
>> supposed to be known in part by guide dog users seem not to be
>> understood. I have seen many questions on this list which show
>> people's lack of confidence or a lack of knowledge of good orientation
>> skills.
>>
>> Even guide dog training programs do encourage their consumers to come
>> having attained good orientation skills as they recognize that they
>> cannot spend the month or less that students are in their programs
>> teaching orientation and mobility or adjustment. Leader Dogs has a
>> one-week, I believe that is the time, mobility course. That is not
>> nearly enough time to learn and develop good orientation skills in my
>> opinion. However, it is a start for some.
>>
>> The centers have a job to do. Using a guide dog during travel will not
>> promote the learning of good travel skills that are learned when
>> learning to use the most basic travel tool, the cane.
>>
>> Now let's move to items such as calling the centers "attitude factories".
>> While that is not the term I would have coined that is what they are.
>> The purpose of the centers is to put together a program that not only
>> teaches consumers travel and other skills, but they teach attitudes
>> about blindness.
>> Their most basic function is to help their attendees to understand
>> that blindness is NOT what holds them back. Remember that people come
>> to the centers usually not knowing much about being blind because they
>> have either never been exposed to good role models or they are newly
>> blinded. In both cases they, like the rest of us, have lived in a
>> world where people with eyesight constantly remind us, consciously or
>> not, that blind people cannot live as well or as productively as they.
>> Every person on this list can cite examples of this. Here is one I
> observed last year.
>>
>> I was in a store with a relative. We just arrived at the checkout
>> counter where there was another customer in front of us. I was not
>> using Africa, but rather a cane. My cane hit the person in front of me
>> and I, because the line was close, also slightly bumped into the
>> person. While I immediately apologized my relative jerked me back and
>> later did not even recognized that I had interacted with the other
>> customer including apologizing. By the way, the customer said "no
>> problem". Even today the relative and his wife feel what he did was
>> right calling it "natural behavior". It is not "natural behavior", but
>> learned behavior due to poor attitudes about us. I have lived around
>> those people for many years and still today they are really
>> uncomfortable about blindness and me. They are also uncomfortable
>> around my wife, Karen, who is the actual blood relative.
>>
>> Centers teach many of us to have the confidence or yes, attitude, that
>> we are really part of society and that we can be whatever we want if
>> we can dream it. Most "orientation and mobility centers" in this
>> country and elsewhere do not focus on attitude as the NFB centers do.
>> So yes, our centers are in a way attitude factories and I am glad of it.
>>
>> I have not attended a center, but I worked for quite a while with Dr.
>> Jernigan in the late 70s during the development of the original
>> Kurzweil Reading Machine. I spent much time at the Iowa Commission for
>> the blind observing and participating in some of the commission
> activities. Dr.
>> Jernigan used this time as part of my "training" in Federation
>> philosophy and in how he worked with employees and clients. That
>> training was invaluable to me and I keep it in mind and use it daily.
>>
>> I have spent time observing and working around our NFB training
>> centers and see not only the Jernigan influence, but how the processes
>> of the centers have evolved including how guide dogs are treated. I
>> for one do not believe anyone can develop a similar center based on
>> using a guide dog. The interactions are different. The whole process
>> would be different due to the nature of how a blind traveler and their
>> guide dog interact. The same level of learning environmental awareness
>> and "structured discovery" would not work. As the old adage goes "you
>> must learn to walk before you can learn to run". We can learn to run,
>> as it were, with guide dogs or canes, but learning to "walk" with a
>> guide dog, that is learning the basic orientation and travel skills,
>> will not happen with a guide dog as easily or as well, for the most
>> part, as with a cane. Even the guide dog training programs acknowledge it
> so I think that debating it further is not productive.
>>
>> I hope this helps the discussion at hand. I would suggest that anyone
>> who disagrees with what the NFB training centers do should take the
>> time to contact the centers and learn about the programs. Don't take
>> my word for it.
>> Don't take the word of anyone else as your only source of information.
>> Call or visit and then discuss.
>>
>>
>> Best Regards,
>>
>>
>> Michael Hingson
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Lisa via
>> nagdu
>> Sent: Sunday, August 30, 2015 10:00 AM
>> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>> Cc: Lisa <dreamymarmot93 at yahoo.de>
>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Guides at NFB training centers
>>
>> Hi everyone,
>>
>> I have a question regarding the training centers.
>> Why does the dog have to stay in an office while the student is in
>> class whereas it is totally normal to have the dog with you _in_ the
>> class room/office at school, college or university? Wouldn't we all be
>> very annoyed if a college had the policy of leaving the dog in the
>> headmaster's office during class?
>> I'd just be interested in the difference that obviously exists between
>> learning at the center and at a mainstream school or work.
>>
>> Thanks for explanations.
>> Lisa
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Marianne Denning via nagdu" <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>> To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>> Cc: "Marianne Denning" <marianne at denningweb.com>
>> Sent: Sunday, August 30, 2015 6:43 PM
>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Guides at NFB training centers
>>
>>
>>> Julie, wwhere do you work?  Is the decision to let the person work
>>> with their dog based on each individual's progress through the
>>> program?
>>>
>>> On 8/30/15, Julie J. via nagdu <nagdu at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>>>> Raven,
>>>>
>>>> A few thoughts...
>>>>
>>>> First I do not believe that guide dogs and canes are diametrically
>>>> opposed,
>>>>
>>>> as you previously asserted I said.  I believe they are different,
>>>> but that many of the skills are similar or overlapping.  I believe
>>>> that orientation skills are the much, much larger part of
>>>> orientation and mobility training.
>>>>
>>>> Folks learn to use a guide dog for mobility in less than a month.  I
>>>> also believe that you can learn to use a cane strictly for mobility
>>>> in that time.
>>>>
>>>> However the larger orientation skills take months and months to
>>>> learn and master.
>>>>
>>>> I've said before that it is preferable to learn orientation skills
>>>> while using a cane.  This is because it causes you to learn without
>>>> confusing a dog or inadvertently relying on input from the dog.
>>>> Here's an example...early in O&M training here at our center, people
>>>> learn the skill of identifying where the door out of a room is, even
>>>> if they are the only
>>>> person in the room.   This skill is the predecessor to more advanced
>>>> skills
>>>>
>>>> like mall travel where you need to be able to recognize when you
>>>> pass a certain store or leave one area of the mall for another and
>>>> the like when there is no distinct doorway.  Here's the thing
>>>> though, if you are a dog user, even if you do not cue the dog to
>>>> find the door, it is going to be the
>>>>
>>>> obvious thing and they are going to suggest it.  The person may
>>>> never pick up on the subtle indications of where that door is.  They
>>>> don't learn that base skill to be able to build on it later and
>>>> perhaps later the dog doesn't
>>>>
>>>> know which way to go in the mall because there is no obvious choice.
>>>> Because
>>>>
>>>> the person hasn't learned to recognize other clues in the
>>>> environment, they
>>>>
>>>> don't know how to direct the dog.
>>>>
>>>> Raven, you seem to have very good O&M skills.  For you it may make
>>>> little difference if you went through center training with a cane or
>>>> dog, but having worked at a center, I can absolutely tell you that
>>>> the huge majority
>>>>
>>>> of people are not like you.  They are attending the center training
>>>> because
>>>>
>>>> they need to better their skills, all of their skills.    We do have
>>>> people
>>>>
>>>> attend our center with their guide dog.  Here they work their dog in
>>>> their free time, before and after classes and at the lunch break.
>>>> As the training
>>>>
>>>> progresses, the dog is incorporated into travel class and other times.
>>>> By
>>>> the very end of training, the person will be back to working the dog
>>>> the majority of the time.
>>>>
>>>> We all know that dogs get sick,  tragic things happen and eventually
>>>> the dog
>>>>
>>>> will need to retire.  For about 99.9% of us this means using a cane
>>>> when the
>>>>
>>>> dog is unavailable.   It's unrealistic to think that someone will be
>>>> able
>>
>>>> to
>>>>
>>>> work their dog 100% of the time for the person's entire lifetime.   So
>>>> if
>>>> you don't have decent cane skills this means you are going to need a
>>>> human guide, put your life on hold or have two dogs at all times.
>>>> Seems to me having learned to use a cane would be a good base skill
>>>> to have.
>>>>
>>>> I know that all of the programs have requirements about being able
>>>> to use
>>
>>>> a
>>>>
>>>> cane or show that you have good O&M skills.  But let's be brutally
>>>> honest with ourselves for a minute,  we all know that what passes
>>>> for good O&M skills varies widely from program to program.  I also
>>>> cannot begin to count
>>>>
>>>> the number of stories I have heard from people who attended a
>>>> program and had classmates who couldn't find their way around
>>>> without significant help.
>>>>
>>>> To me it's pretty clear that folks with guide dogs do not all have
>>>> good orientation skills.  Perhaps we could work with the guide dog
>>>> programs to help them better understand the importance of acquiring
>>>> good orientation training before getting a dog.
>>>>
>>>> You made the argument that a dog is your preferred mobility tool and
>>>> the center programs should support that decision.  I think they do,
>>>> but that they also recognize that a dog is a mobility tool and that
>>>> there is more to
>>>>
>>>> independent travel than mobility.    What if a person went to a center
>>>> and
>>>> said they use GPS, so they don't need to learn orientation skills?
>>>> that would be silly and no one would think that a good idea.  GPS
>>>> only goes so far in getting you where you want to go.  It doesn't
>>>> tell you when it's safe
>>>>
>>>> to cross the street, when there are stairs, when there's road
>>>> construction or when a kid has parked his bike across the sidewalk.
>>>> If someone went to a
>>>>
>>>> center and said they didn't need to learn to use the stovetop
>>>> because they were going to eat microwave dinners for the rest of
>>>> their life, no one would
>>>>
>>>> think that a good idea either.   The centers recognize that personal
>>>> independence through skill training includes a wide variety of skills.
>>>> It
>>>> means moving out of your comfort zone and learning new things.
>>>> Perhaps there are people who only use the microwave to cook, but the
>>>> point is that after center training that's a choice, not a necessity.
>>>> To me that's what it's really about, having the choice to pick from
>>>> a wide variety of skills to find the one that best fits the
>>>> particular situation I find myself in.
>>>>
>>>> Julie
>>>>
>>>>
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>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Marianne Denning, TVI, MA
>>> Teacher of students who are blind or visually impaired
>>> (513) 607-6053
>>>
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>
>
> --
> Marianne Denning, TVI, MA
> Teacher of students who are blind or visually impaired
> (513) 607-6053
>
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