[nagdu] People with sight getting guide dogs: was Reasons for choosing a particular guy dog school

Wed Mar 25 18:15:11 UTC 2015

But who is saying those people don't need dogs? Obviously, they feel they can benefit from the use of a dog, and a school has agreed. There are quite a few people who do things with or to their dogs that I wouldn't recommend. However, I can't say they don't need a dog because of those things.

I'm sorry you've been badly treated, and that people you know have been asked to write recommendations for dogs, but neither of those things can be blamed on the entire partially sighted population. Partials can be just as good or bad handlers as totally blind people.

Shannon and the Acelet
On Mar 25, 2015, at 11:11 AM, S L Johnson via nagdu <nagdu at nfbnet.org> wrote:

> Yes, but just because someone is legally blind or visually impaired, it 
> doesn't mean they really need a dog to travel safely.  I had an O&M 
> instructor tell me she was always being asked to write recommendations for 
> partially sighted people to get dogs when her evaluation showed they didn't 
> even need to use a cane.  To me, that is wrong.  Someone with that much 
> sight does not really need a guide dog.  the waiting lists wouldn't b as 
> long if those with too much sight were not taking dogs away from those of us 
> who really need them.
> 
> -----Original Message----- 
> From: Cindy Ray via nagdu
> Sent: Wednesday, March 25, 2015 10:55 AM
> To: 'Shannon Dyer' ; 'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide 
> Dog Users'
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] People with sight getting guide dogs: was Reasonsfor 
> choosing a particular guy dog school
> 
> First of all, I would see that if a person is getting a dog, he/she is blind
> in the most legal terms. There are people who cannot get about as a sighted
> person but who can read as if they had no visual loss, and there are people
> who can travel about just fine, or at the very least reasonably well, but
> cannot read a printed page. They are not sighted people getting dogs. They
> are people who would be considered blind, or at the very least visually
> impaired. Sighted people cannot get a dog at a guide dog school. Waiting is
> hard, especially if you have had a dog and are very much accustomed to using
> one and would prefer to get on back to that, or if you are new at it. But
> sometimes the waiting is rewarded with a dog that you are glad you had the
> opportunity to receive beyond belief. I got a dog once and I had her for
> eleven months. I ended up going back to the school, and I got Spencer, my
> Golden Retriever. One of the instructors said that we were meant to be
> together. We hit it off right away. He was too young yet to be a guide dog
> when I got the first one. When I got Wayne, Fisher was a puppy, but two
> years later when I finally returned Wayne, Fisher was ready, and he's been a
> good match. Actually, when I got Wayne Fisher was not born yet. Anyway, I
> think we just have to learn the virtue of patience.
> Cindy
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Shannon Dyer via
> nagdu
> Sent: Wednesday, March 25, 2015 9:40 AM
> To: S L Johnson; NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog
> Users
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] People with sight getting guide dogs: was Reasons for
> choosing a particular guy dog school
> 
> The world of partial vision has always been confusing to me. I know a lot
> depends on things like lighting and contrast, and I'm sure a host of other
> things I don't know about. I do know that many people have limits on what
> and when they can see well. I'm not sure this means they're pretending to be
> blind.
> 
> I'm sorry you've had bad experiences with partially sighted people who have
> dogs. It sounds like the fault lies with those specific people, and not with
> the partially sighted population as a whole.
> 
> As for waiting to get a dog, we all have to wait sometimes. Maybe we wait
> because a school doesn't have the right dog for us. Maybe we wait because of
> something in our own schedules. I'm just not sure it's the fault of the
> people who are receiving dogs while we wait.
> 
> Shannon and the Acelet
> On Mar 25, 2015, at 10:15 AM, S L Johnson via nagdu <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> wrote:
> 
>> Dona and all:
>> 
>> I just had to respond to this.  I remember well the mid 70s and the
>> argument of partially sighted people getting guide dogs.  As a total,
>> I am adamantly apposed to people with sight having guide dogs.  I
>> remember having to be on a waiting list while sighted people were
>> given dogs before those of us with no sight.  I've had classes where
>> some people had so much sight they would make comments on what my dog
>> was doing from a long distance away.  On classes at GDF I found
>> students who were reading the signs on buildings as we drove down the
>> road.  To me, someone with that much sight doesn't need a dog.  I was
>> next to a partial when we were relieving the dogs and she laughed at
>> my attempts to clean up after a dog who tended to move around as she
>> relieved herself, making my cleaning up extremely difficult.  I got so
>> mad that I told her since she could see so well, then she could pick
>> it up for me.  I remember when I got Tara from GDF and we were in the
>> mall.  A trainer got upset when I and another total got lost.  Another
> trainer said well, if These two had as much sight as the rest of them, then
> maybe they
>> wouldn't have gotten lost.   Those sighted students were able to read all
>> the signs and see to find their way back to the food court.  I once
>> lived in an area where there was a high partial with a guide dog.  I
>> would go into the store and asked for someone to help me find what I
>> wanted.  The manager asked why my dog was too stupid to help me.  He
>> said this other customer with her dog never needed help.  I later
>> found out she was just on the border of legal blindness and could see to
> read everything on the shelves.
>> I was legally blind once and even if I'd been old enough, I never
>> would have considered a dog until I lost all my sight.  I will agree,
>> some people have so little vision that it doesn't help them so, a dog
>> is very helpful but, for others, it is a waste of a well trained dog
>> that should go to someone who really needs it.  I have heard this same
>> thing from many trainers.  They hate to see their dogs go to a high
>> partial who only wants a well trained pet they can take everywhere.  I
>> know this will make a lot of you angry but, I'm sick and tired of
>> partially sighted people pretending they are really blind.
>> 
>> Sandra and Eva
>> 
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Applebutter Hill via nagdu
>> Sent: Saturday, March 21, 2015 5:26 PM
>> To: 'Tara Briggs' ; 'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of
>> Guide Dog Users'
>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Reasons for choosing a particular guy dog school
>> 
>> Tara,
>> I went to GDF in '71, because an instructor came to the college I was
>> attending and asked the Dean of Women if anyone on campus might
>> benefit from their services. I was in denial about how blind I was, so
>> I talked to him politely, took the application and had a rant about
>> the indignaty of it all with my friends.
>> 
>> My friends weren't as mortified that anyone would consider me a
>> candidate for a guide dog. I moved forward because one reminded me
>> that I liked dogs and held out the carrot that if it didn't work as a
>> guide dog I would still have a dog.
>> 
>> When I told my rehab counsellor I was going, he wrote and called the
>> school repeatedly telling them why I should not be given a dog. I had
>> some vision in the daytime; I was a "girl" and "girls" shouldn't go
>> out at night anyway; Seeing Eye and Leader Dog would never have
>> approved a "partial" for training, and so on.
>> 
>> The last call came while I was already on class and I was called into
>> the Director of Trainings office, where I was sure I was going to hear
>> that they had decided to send me home. John Byfield  simply assured me
>> that he had told my counsellor that the school was committed to
>> training me and didn't agree with his assessment of my needs. I was
>> one of the first students who was not totally blind, and there was a
>> lot all of us had to learn about training a person with some usable
>> sight to use a guide dog, and in those days, no other school was
>> training people with some sight. One of the GDF grads wrote a book
>> about her GDF guide Brandy. The grad had been an art teacher, and Seeing
> Eye refused to take her because she didn't have a job.
>> GDF didn't look at things the same way as other schools.
>> 
>> GDF's John Biegel  pioneered the use of the offset handle, and by the
>> time I got my second dog in '83, it was standard equipment. It was a
>> huge improvement and IMO shortened the adjustment time for my second
>> dog. I take it for granted now.
>> 
>> I can't remember when they switched to offering ownership, but I do "own"
>> Hunter now. It was never much of an issue to me, because they always
>> had my back.
>> 
>> GDF has changed much over the years - great advances in the physical
>> facility, great puppy program, and on the other hand too much management.
>> But, so far, despite my protestations about this or that, they have
>> not given me any reason why I should jump ship.
>> Donna & Hunter
>> 
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Tara Briggs
>> via nagdu
>> Sent: Friday, March 20, 2015 1:33 PM
>> To: the National Association of Guide Dog Users NAGDU Mailing List
>> Subject: [nagdu] Reasons for choosing a particular guy dog school
>> 
>> Hi all:
>> I thought it would be interesting to find out why people chose to go
>> to the various guy Doug schools? If you train your own dog, what
>> factors contributed towards this decision? I'll start by answering my
>> own question, I went to the Seeing Eye because I like their ownership
>> policy. I had also attended a couple of their free breakfast at
>> national conventions and thought the people seemed really nice. I'm
>> looking forward to everyone's replies!
>> Tara Briggs
>> 
>> Sent from my iPhone
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