[nagdu] Guides at NFB training centers

Tue Sep 1 03:50:26 UTC 2015

I completely agree with you
Michael.  A friend of mine did
exactly this, she called and
talked with the colorado
center.  Although I think that
it could have been handled
differently by the center and
my friend.  But I am glad that
she did call and discussed the
program.  

Warmly,
Melissa R. Green and Pj
It is 'where we are' that
should make all the
difference, whether we believe
we belong there or not. 

-----Original Message-----
From: nagdu
[mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.o
rg] On Behalf Of Michael
Hingson via nagdu
Sent: Sunday, August 30, 2015
2:29 PM
To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the
National Association of Guide
Dog Users'
Cc: Michael Hingson
Subject: Re: [nagdu] Guides at
NFB training centers

All,

I want to address comments by
Lisa and Raven.

First, the center staff asks
students not to use guide dogs
during much of
the training, including travel
class, both in order to teach
cane travel and
to provide lessons concerning
orientation or what we have
come to know as
"structured discovery". These
concepts while supposed to be
known in part by
guide dog users seem not to be
understood. I have seen many
questions on
this list which show people's
lack of confidence or a lack
of knowledge of
good orientation skills.

Even guide dog training
programs do encourage their
consumers to come having
attained good orientation
skills as they recognize that
they cannot spend
the month or less that
students are in their programs
teaching orientation
and mobility or adjustment.
Leader Dogs has a one-week, I
believe that is
the time, mobility course.
That is not nearly enough time
to learn and
develop good orientation
skills in my opinion. However,
it is a start for
some.

The centers have a job to do.
Using a guide dog during
travel will not
promote the learning of good
travel skills that are learned
when learning to
use the most basic travel
tool, the cane.

Now let's move to items such
as calling the centers
"attitude factories".
While that is not the term I
would have coined that is what
they are. The
purpose of the centers is to
put together a program that
not only teaches
consumers travel and other
skills, but they teach
attitudes about blindness.
Their most basic function is
to help their attendees to
understand that
blindness is NOT what holds
them back. Remember that
people come to the
centers usually not knowing
much about being blind because
they have either
never been exposed to good
role models or they are newly
blinded. In both
cases they, like the rest of
us, have lived in a world
where people with
eyesight constantly remind us,
consciously or not, that blind
people cannot
live as well or as
productively as they. Every
person on this list can cite
examples of this. Here is one
I observed last year.

I was in a store with a
relative. We just arrived at
the checkout counter
where there was another
customer in front of us. I was
not using Africa, but
rather a cane. My cane hit the
person in front of me and I,
because the line
was close, also slightly
bumped into the person. While
I immediately
apologized my relative jerked
me back and later did not even
recognized that
I had interacted with the
other customer including
apologizing. By the way,
the customer said "no
problem". Even today the
relative and his wife feel
what he did was right calling
it "natural behavior". It is
not "natural
behavior", but learned
behavior due to poor attitudes
about us. I have lived
around those people for many
years and still today they are
really
uncomfortable about blindness
and me. They are also
uncomfortable around my
wife, Karen, who is the actual
blood relative.

Centers teach many of us to
have the confidence or yes,
attitude, that we
are really part of society and
that we can be whatever we
want if we can
dream it. Most "orientation
and mobility centers" in this
country and
elsewhere do not focus on
attitude as the NFB centers
do. So yes, our
centers are in a way attitude
factories and I am glad of it.

I have not attended a center,
but I worked for quite a while
with Dr.
Jernigan in the late 70s
during the development of the
original Kurzweil
Reading Machine. I spent much
time at the Iowa Commission
for the blind
observing and participating in
some of the commission
activities. Dr.
Jernigan used this time as
part of my "training" in
Federation philosophy
and in how he worked with
employees and clients. That
training was
invaluable to me and I keep it
in mind and use it daily.

I have spent time observing
and working around our NFB
training centers and
see not only the Jernigan
influence, but how the
processes of the centers
have evolved including how
guide dogs are treated. I for
one do not believe
anyone can develop a similar
center based on using a guide
dog. The
interactions are different.
The whole process would be
different due to the
nature of how a blind traveler
and their guide dog interact.
The same level
of learning environmental
awareness and "structured
discovery" would not
work. As the old adage goes
"you must learn to walk before
you can learn to
run". We can learn to run, as
it were, with guide dogs or
canes, but
learning to "walk" with a
guide dog, that is learning
the basic orientation
and travel skills, will not
happen with a guide dog as
easily or as well,
for the most part, as with a
cane. Even the guide dog
training programs
acknowledge it so I think that
debating it further is not
productive.

I hope this helps the
discussion at hand. I would
suggest that anyone who
disagrees with what the NFB
training centers do should
take the time to
contact the centers and learn
about the programs. Don't take
my word for it.
Don't take the word of anyone
else as your only source of
information. Call
or visit and then discuss. 

Best Regards,

Michael Hingson

-----Original Message-----
From: nagdu
[mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.o
rg] On Behalf Of Lisa via
nagdu
Sent: Sunday, August 30, 2015
10:00 AM
To: NAGDU Mailing List, the
National Association of Guide
Dog Users
<nagdu at nfbnet.org>
Cc: Lisa
<dreamymarmot93 at yahoo.de>
Subject: Re: [nagdu] Guides at
NFB training centers

Hi everyone,

I have a question regarding
the training centers.
Why does the dog have to stay
in an office while the student
is in class
whereas it is totally normal
to have the dog with you _in_
the class
room/office at school, college
or university? Wouldn't we all
be very
annoyed if a college had the
policy of leaving the dog in
the headmaster's
office during class?
I'd just be interested in the
difference that obviously
exists between
learning at the center and at
a mainstream school or work.

Thanks for explanations.
Lisa
----- Original Message -----
From: "Marianne Denning via
nagdu" <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the
National Association of Guide
Dog Users" 
<nagdu at nfbnet.org>
Cc: "Marianne Denning"
<marianne at denningweb.com>
Sent: Sunday, August 30, 2015
6:43 PM
Subject: Re: [nagdu] Guides at
NFB training centers

> Julie, wwhere do you work?
Is the decision to let the
person work
> with their dog based on each
individual's progress through
the
> program?
>
> On 8/30/15, Julie J. via
nagdu <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
wrote:
>> Raven,
>>
>> A few thoughts...
>>
>> First I do not believe that
guide dogs and canes are
diametrically 
>> opposed,
>>
>> as you previously asserted
I said.  I believe they are
different, but 
>> that
>> many of the skills are
similar or overlapping.  I
believe that 
>> orientation
>> skills are the much, much
larger part of orientation and
mobility 
>> training.
>>
>> Folks learn to use a guide
dog for mobility in less than
a month.  I also
>> believe that you can learn
to use a cane strictly for
mobility in that 
>> time.
>>
>> However the larger
orientation skills take months
and months to learn and
>> master.
>>
>> I've said before that it is
preferable to learn
orientation skills while
>> using a cane.  This is
because it causes you to learn
without confusing a
>> dog or inadvertently
relying on input from the dog.
Here's an
>> example...early in O&M
training here at our center,
people learn the 
>> skill
>> of identifying where the
door out of a room is, even if
they are the only
>> person in the room.   This
skill is the predecessor to
more advanced 
>> skills
>>
>> like mall travel where you
need to be able to recognize
when you pass a
>> certain store or leave one
area of the mall for another
and the like when
>> there is no distinct
doorway.  Here's the thing
though, if you are a dog
>> user, even if you do not
cue the dog to find the door,
it is going to be 
>> the
>>
>> obvious thing and they are
going to suggest it.  The
person may never 
>> pick
>> up on the subtle
indications of where that door
is.  They don't learn 
>> that
>> base skill to be able to
build on it later and perhaps
later the dog 
>> doesn't
>>
>> know which way to go in the
mall because there is no
obvious choice. 
>> Because
>>
>> the person hasn't learned
to recognize other clues in
the environment, 
>> they
>>
>> don't know how to direct
the dog.
>>
>> Raven, you seem to have
very good O&M skills.  For you
it may make little
>> difference if you went
through center training with a
cane or dog, but
>> having worked at a center,
I can absolutely tell you that
the huge 
>> majority
>>
>> of people are not like you.
They are attending the center
training 
>> because
>>
>> they need to better their
skills, all of their skills.
We do have 
>> people
>>
>> attend our center with
their guide dog.  Here they
work their dog in 
>> their
>> free time, before and after
classes and at the lunch
break.  As the 
>> training
>>
>> progresses, the dog is
incorporated into travel class
and other times. 
>> By
>> the very end of training,
the person will be back to
working the dog the
>> majority of the time.
>>
>> We all know that dogs get
sick,  tragic things happen
and eventually the 
>> dog
>>
>> will need to retire.  For
about 99.9% of us this means
using a cane when 
>> the
>>
>> dog is unavailable.   It's
unrealistic to think that
someone will be able

>> to
>>
>> work their dog 100% of the
time for the person's entire
lifetime.   So if
>> you don't have decent cane
skills this means you are
going to need a 
>> human
>> guide, put your life on
hold or have two dogs at all
times. Seems to me
>> having learned to use a
cane would be a good base
skill to have.
>>
>> I know that all of the
programs have requirements
about being able to use

>> a
>>
>> cane or show that you have
good O&M skills.  But let's be
brutally honest
>> with ourselves for a
minute,  we all know that what
passes for good O&M
>> skills varies widely from
program to program.  I also
cannot begin to 
>> count
>>
>> the number of stories I
have heard from people who
attended a program and
>> had classmates who couldn't
find their way around without
significant 
>> help.
>>
>> To me it's pretty clear
that folks with guide dogs do
not all have good
>> orientation skills.
Perhaps we could work with the
guide dog programs to
>> help them better understand
the importance of acquiring
good orientation
>> training before getting a
dog.
>>
>> You made the argument that
a dog is your preferred
mobility tool and the
>> center programs should
support that decision.  I
think they do, but that
>> they also recognize that a
dog is a mobility tool and
that there is more 
>> to
>>
>> independent travel than
mobility.    What if a person
went to a center 
>> and
>> said they use GPS, so they
don't need to learn
orientation skills?  that
>> would be silly and no one
would think that a good idea.
GPS only goes so
>> far in getting you where
you want to go.  It doesn't
tell you when it's 
>> safe
>>
>> to cross the street, when
there are stairs, when there's
road 
>> construction
>> or when a kid has parked
his bike across the sidewalk.
If someone went 
>> to a
>>
>> center and said they didn't
need to learn to use the
stovetop because 
>> they
>> were going to eat microwave
dinners for the rest of their
life, no one 
>> would
>>
>> think that a good idea
either.   The centers
recognize that personal
>> independence through skill
training includes a wide
variety of skills. 
>> It
>> means moving out of your
comfort zone and learning new
things.  Perhaps
>> there are people who only
use the microwave to cook, but
the point is 
>> that
>> after center training
that's a choice, not a
necessity.  To me that's 
>> what
>> it's really about, having
the choice to pick from a wide
variety of 
>> skills
>> to find the one that best
fits the particular situation
I find myself in.
>>
>> Julie
>>
>>
>>
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>
>
> -- 
> Marianne Denning, TVI, MA
> Teacher of students who are
blind or visually impaired
> (513) 607-6053
>
>
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