[nagdu] Guides at NFB training centers

Michael Hingson mike at michaelhingson.com
Wed Sep 2 03:34:46 UTC 2015


OK folks. I suggest this topic has gone on long enough. We are having a good
discussion, but I think we are getting a bit tense.

I am not going to discuss this idea of the Federation discriminating against
guide dog users except to say that it is not as an organization
philosophically discriminating. The centers also do not discriminate, but
everyone is entitled to their opinion.

Sheila wrote " I love being a member of the nfb and nagdu but won't give up
my right to use my dog anywhere that I choose within the law and I won't
attend a center that won't allow me to use my dog." That sums it up. It is
the choice of each of us to go to the NFB centers or not. If someone thinks
the centers are wrong, work to change policy, but first make sure that you
have all the details.

Now, I suggest we drop this for a time. As I said, the discussion has been
good, but we have, as they say, "saucered and blowed this to death". 


Best Regards,


Michael Hingson

-----Original Message-----
From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of S L Johnson via
nagdu
Sent: Tuesday, September 01, 2015 5:29 PM
To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
<nagdu at nfbnet.org>
Cc: S L Johnson <SLJohnson25 at comcast.net>
Subject: Re: [nagdu] Guides at NFB training centers

Hello:

It is obvious that no matter what NAGDU says or what the rest of us guide
dog users think, NFB does discriminate against guide dog user's.  This is
the truth.  How can we expect the rest of society to obey the laws when NFB
doesn't obey them?  What is NAGDU going to do about this discrimination?

Sandra

-----Original Message-----
From: Sheila Leigland via nagdu
Sent: Tuesday, September 01, 2015 5:52 PM
To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
Cc: Sheila Leigland
Subject: Re: [nagdu] Guides at NFB training centers

I love being a member of the nfb and nagdu but wont't give up my right to
use my dog anywhere that I choose within the law and I won't attend a center
that won't allow me to use my dog.

On 8/31/2015 9:05 AM, Nimer Jaber via nagdu wrote:
> This issue is an important one to me, and is a huge example of why I 
> will never ever attend an NFB center.  Even though in my line of work 
> I promote choice, I think really hard before recommending an NFB center as
well.
>
> The NFB wishes me to be independent.  NAGDU wishes to represent my 
> rights as a dog user to use my dog anywhere I wish, so long as the use 
> of the dog isn't a life-or-death issue for someone.  Yet an NFB 
> training center that receives state and possibly Federal funding 
> dictates where I can and can't use my dog, all because their 
> instructors are incompetent at working with an individual with a dog 
> or because some individual that knows very little about the needs and 
> requirements and dignity of a dog handler and his or her partner.  
> This is not, as some will over-simplify it, an issue of someone not 
> doing what a boss says.  This is an access issue. You are stating that 
> I can not use my dog because your training center won't make that 
> accommodation of my preferred method of travel. The centers say that a 
> cane is superior to a dog and that regardless of my preference, my 
> choice, my desire to utilize a specific aid, I have to conform to your
methods because it has been proven to work for billions of years.
>
> Here's the real issue.  If I ran a training center for cooking for 
> blind people and I sought state and federal funding and I invited you 
> to come but I told you that you were not allowed to use your cane 
> during the day because it was my belief that can be grounded in fact 
> with some numbers that you bond better if you feel your way through 
> your environment and it was my method of structure discovery, you 
> would be all up on that stating that I was violating your rights and 
> that a cane is fundamental and you should be able to use your cane.
Here's an issue that is even better...
> Uber, a private company that offers ride-sharing, is taking a lot of 
> flack because its individual drivers feel like taking a dog isn't in 
> their best interests.  It messes up their car and their workflow, they 
> might even be alergic.  Yet they are forced to accommodate dogs.
>
> A dog user can certainly choose not to attend an NFB training center, 
> and I know of many that have made that very decision.  Or they can 
> choose to abuse their dogs by cooping them up for 6-9 months all day 
> long just to work them on days that evening activities don't exist or 
> on weekends when activities don't exist... which takes up more time by 
> the way... not to mention that a dog is likely to develop behavioral 
> issues from being so damned bored after being cooped up alone all day 
> long. And the entity, Nagdu, that purports to represent guide dog 
> users and that is a proud division of the National Federation of the 
> Blind doesn't actually care about whether or not a training center 
> that receives state and federal funding can dictate where an 
> individual can and can't use their dogs, but they do care about Uber 
> or IFB or any other company that tells people where they can and can't use
their dogs.
>
> I think Dave had the right of it... a training center that actually 
> listens to its customer base and modifies a training for each 
> individual wherever possible without cutting the quality would be a
wonderful thing.
> Structure discovery within itself is pretty great.  Not, however, when 
> it patronizes the people getting the training by telling them "hey, we 
> know what is good for you, and even though you may have decent travel 
> skills, a dog just isn't a good mobility tool, so you should use a 
> cane because we know that works, and maybe after you use a cane you 
> can use your dog" even though they completely discount the fact that 
> working a cane and working a dog requires totally different skills for
orientation and navigation.
>
> Anyways, love the lively debate.
>
> On 8/31/2015 09:43, Cindy Ray via nagdu wrote:
>> What may be rare, Mary Ann. Yes, I would recommend that one go to the 
>> centers before getting the dog, but of course it isn't always an option.
>> Then you simply must abide by the rules or you don't get the 
>> training. If you think that the training could enhance your skills 
>> and confidence, then do you really want to give it up because for a 
>> few months you will have to work with a cane. You aren't going to 
>> spend a few months away from the dog because you can have it there; 
>> you work it when you are out of classes, yes?
>> This means evenings and weekends for the most part. You are not asked 
>> to leave the dogs at home. I am wondering if there are recordings of 
>> when the centers came and spoke at NAGDU, or if there is updated 
>> information that can be found? We are truly batting this issue around 
>> and saying the same things over and over and over again, but where 
>> are we really getting with it?
>> Cindy Lou Ray
>> cindyray at gmail.com
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Marianne 
>> Denning via nagdu
>> Sent: Monday, August 31, 2015 9:38 AM
>> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users 
>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>> Cc: Marianne Denning <marianne at denningweb.com>
>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Guides at NFB training centers
>>
>> I have had dogs for 25 years and have used a cane between dogs on 3 
>> occasions.  I had to get to a bus, transfer buses downtown which 
>> involved walking 2 or 3 blocks.  I was successful doing this.  I 
>> certainly believe my cane skills could improve, as most of us can 
>> improve our cane skills.  I am not willing to risk the possible 
>> retirement of my dog so I can obtain this training.
>>
>> At this time, my recommendation will be that anyone go through the 
>> center training before obtaining a dog.  Unfortunately, that is not 
>> possible so each person must decide if training is more important 
>> than the potential need to go to school to obtain a new dog. This may 
>> be rare, but it does happen.
>>
>> On 8/31/15, larry d keeler via nagdu <nagdu at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>>> As do I! What I don't get is that yyou can't use the dog during 
>>> other classes! I could even live with occasionally leaving the dog 
>>> for an hour or two for mobility and cane practice. Like you, I have 
>>> grown up
>> using a cane.
>>> I have only in the last 10 years have used the dog. If I can prove I 
>>> have good cane skills, then why should I have to not use my dog?
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Elizabeth 
>>> Campbell via nagdu
>>> Sent: Monday, August 31, 2015 8:21 AM
>>> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
>>> Cc: Elizabeth Campbell
>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Guides at NFB training centers
>>>
>>> All, I cannot emphasize the importance of keeping up your cane 
>>> skills even though working with a dog is your preferred travel method.
>>> As you know, I had to retire my dog very suddenly, and believe me 
>>> there is a learning curve for me since I hadn't used my cane as 
>>> often as I should, in my opinion.
>>>
>>> Having a good grounding in cane skills is essential for every blind 
>>> person given that life happens and you just never know when you will 
>>> be without your dog.
>>> I didn't attend an NFB training center, but I understand the rules 
>>> and philosophy and the emphasis on the blindness skills training.
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Michael 
>>> Hingson via nagdu
>>> Sent: Sunday, August 30, 2015 3:29 PM
>>> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>> Cc: Michael Hingson <mike at michaelhingson.com>
>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Guides at NFB training centers
>>>
>>> All,
>>>
>>> I want to address comments by Lisa and Raven.
>>>
>>> First, the center staff asks students not to use guide dogs during 
>>> much of the training, including travel class, both in order to teach 
>>> cane travel and to provide lessons concerning orientation or what we 
>>> have come to know as "structured discovery". These concepts while 
>>> supposed to be known in part by guide dog users seem not to be 
>>> understood. I have seen many questions on this list which show 
>>> people's lack of confidence or a lack of knowledge of good 
>>> orientation skills.
>>>
>>> Even guide dog training programs do encourage their consumers to 
>>> come having attained good orientation skills as they recognize that 
>>> they cannot spend the month or less that students are in their 
>>> programs teaching orientation and mobility or adjustment. Leader 
>>> Dogs has a one-week, I believe that is the time, mobility course. 
>>> That is not nearly enough time to learn and develop good orientation 
>>> skills in my opinion. However, it is a start for some.
>>>
>>> The centers have a job to do. Using a guide dog during travel will 
>>> not promote the learning of good travel skills that are learned when 
>>> learning to use the most basic travel tool, the cane.
>>>
>>> Now let's move to items such as calling the centers "attitude 
>>> factories".
>>> While that is not the term I would have coined that is what they are.
>>> The purpose of the centers is to put together a program that not 
>>> only teaches consumers travel and other skills, but they teach 
>>> attitudes about blindness.
>>> Their most basic function is to help their attendees to understand 
>>> that blindness is NOT what holds them back. Remember that people 
>>> come to the centers usually not knowing much about being blind 
>>> because they have either never been exposed to good role models or 
>>> they are newly blinded. In both cases they, like the rest of us, 
>>> have lived in a world where people with eyesight constantly remind 
>>> us, consciously or not, that blind people cannot live as well or as
productively as they.
>>> Every person on this list can cite examples of this. Here is one I
>> observed last year.
>>>
>>> I was in a store with a relative. We just arrived at the checkout 
>>> counter where there was another customer in front of us. I was not 
>>> using Africa, but rather a cane. My cane hit the person in front of 
>>> me and I, because the line was close, also slightly bumped into the 
>>> person. While I immediately apologized my relative jerked me back 
>>> and later did not even recognized that I had interacted with the 
>>> other customer including apologizing. By the way, the customer said 
>>> "no problem". Even today the relative and his wife feel what he did 
>>> was right calling it "natural behavior". It is not "natural 
>>> behavior", but learned behavior due to poor attitudes about us. I 
>>> have lived around those people for many years and still today they 
>>> are really uncomfortable about blindness and me. They are also 
>>> uncomfortable around my wife, Karen, who is the actual blood relative.
>>>
>>> Centers teach many of us to have the confidence or yes, attitude, 
>>> that we are really part of society and that we can be whatever we 
>>> want if we can dream it. Most "orientation and mobility centers" in 
>>> this country and elsewhere do not focus on attitude as the NFB centers
do.
>>> So yes, our centers are in a way attitude factories and I am glad of it.
>>>
>>> I have not attended a center, but I worked for quite a while with Dr.
>>> Jernigan in the late 70s during the development of the original 
>>> Kurzweil Reading Machine. I spent much time at the Iowa Commission 
>>> for the blind observing and participating in some of the commission
>> activities. Dr.
>>> Jernigan used this time as part of my "training" in Federation 
>>> philosophy and in how he worked with employees and clients. That 
>>> training was invaluable to me and I keep it in mind and use it daily.
>>>
>>> I have spent time observing and working around our NFB training 
>>> centers and see not only the Jernigan influence, but how the 
>>> processes of the centers have evolved including how guide dogs are 
>>> treated. I for one do not believe anyone can develop a similar 
>>> center based on using a guide dog. The interactions are different. 
>>> The whole process would be different due to the nature of how a 
>>> blind traveler and their guide dog interact. The same level of 
>>> learning environmental awareness and "structured discovery" would 
>>> not work. As the old adage goes "you must learn to walk before you 
>>> can learn to run". We can learn to run, as it were, with guide dogs 
>>> or canes, but learning to "walk" with a guide dog, that is learning 
>>> the basic orientation and travel skills, will not happen with a 
>>> guide dog as easily or as well, for the most part, as with a cane. 
>>> Even the guide dog training programs acknowledge it
>> so I think that debating it further is not productive.
>>>
>>> I hope this helps the discussion at hand. I would suggest that 
>>> anyone who disagrees with what the NFB training centers do should 
>>> take the time to contact the centers and learn about the programs. 
>>> Don't take my word for it.
>>> Don't take the word of anyone else as your only source of information.
>>> Call or visit and then discuss.
>>>
>>>
>>> Best Regards,
>>>
>>>
>>> Michael Hingson
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Lisa via 
>>> nagdu
>>> Sent: Sunday, August 30, 2015 10:00 AM
>>> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users 
>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>> Cc: Lisa <dreamymarmot93 at yahoo.de>
>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Guides at NFB training centers
>>>
>>> Hi everyone,
>>>
>>> I have a question regarding the training centers.
>>> Why does the dog have to stay in an office while the student is in 
>>> class whereas it is totally normal to have the dog with you _in_ the 
>>> class room/office at school, college or university? Wouldn't we all 
>>> be very annoyed if a college had the policy of leaving the dog in 
>>> the headmaster's office during class?
>>> I'd just be interested in the difference that obviously exists 
>>> between learning at the center and at a mainstream school or work.
>>>
>>> Thanks for explanations.
>>> Lisa
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Marianne Denning via nagdu" <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>> To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>> Cc: "Marianne Denning" <marianne at denningweb.com>
>>> Sent: Sunday, August 30, 2015 6:43 PM
>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Guides at NFB training centers
>>>
>>>
>>>> Julie, wwhere do you work?  Is the decision to let the person work 
>>>> with their dog based on each individual's progress through the 
>>>> program?
>>>>
>>>> On 8/30/15, Julie J. via nagdu <nagdu at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>>>>> Raven,
>>>>>
>>>>> A few thoughts...
>>>>>
>>>>> First I do not believe that guide dogs and canes are diametrically 
>>>>> opposed,
>>>>>
>>>>> as you previously asserted I said.  I believe they are different, 
>>>>> but that many of the skills are similar or overlapping.  I believe 
>>>>> that orientation skills are the much, much larger part of 
>>>>> orientation and mobility training.
>>>>>
>>>>> Folks learn to use a guide dog for mobility in less than a month.  
>>>>> I also believe that you can learn to use a cane strictly for 
>>>>> mobility in that time.
>>>>>
>>>>> However the larger orientation skills take months and months to 
>>>>> learn and master.
>>>>>
>>>>> I've said before that it is preferable to learn orientation skills 
>>>>> while using a cane.  This is because it causes you to learn 
>>>>> without confusing a dog or inadvertently relying on input from the
dog.
>>>>> Here's an example...early in O&M training here at our center, 
>>>>> people learn the skill of identifying where the door out of a room 
>>>>> is, even if they are the only
>>>>> person in the room.   This skill is the predecessor to more advanced
>>>>> skills
>>>>>
>>>>> like mall travel where you need to be able to recognize when you 
>>>>> pass a certain store or leave one area of the mall for another and 
>>>>> the like when there is no distinct doorway.  Here's the thing 
>>>>> though, if you are a dog user, even if you do not cue the dog to 
>>>>> find the door, it is going to be the
>>>>>
>>>>> obvious thing and they are going to suggest it.  The person may 
>>>>> never pick up on the subtle indications of where that door is.  
>>>>> They don't learn that base skill to be able to build on it later 
>>>>> and perhaps later the dog doesn't
>>>>>
>>>>> know which way to go in the mall because there is no obvious choice.
>>>>> Because
>>>>>
>>>>> the person hasn't learned to recognize other clues in the 
>>>>> environment, they
>>>>>
>>>>> don't know how to direct the dog.
>>>>>
>>>>> Raven, you seem to have very good O&M skills.  For you it may make 
>>>>> little difference if you went through center training with a cane 
>>>>> or dog, but having worked at a center, I can absolutely tell you 
>>>>> that the huge majority
>>>>>
>>>>> of people are not like you.  They are attending the center 
>>>>> training because
>>>>>
>>>>> they need to better their skills, all of their skills. We do have 
>>>>> people
>>>>>
>>>>> attend our center with their guide dog.  Here they work their dog 
>>>>> in their free time, before and after classes and at the lunch break.
>>>>> As the training
>>>>>
>>>>> progresses, the dog is incorporated into travel class and other times.
>>>>> By
>>>>> the very end of training, the person will be back to working the 
>>>>> dog the majority of the time.
>>>>>
>>>>> We all know that dogs get sick,  tragic things happen and 
>>>>> eventually the dog
>>>>>
>>>>> will need to retire.  For about 99.9% of us this means using a 
>>>>> cane when the
>>>>>
>>>>> dog is unavailable.   It's unrealistic to think that someone will be
>>>>> able
>>>
>>>>> to
>>>>>
>>>>> work their dog 100% of the time for the person's entire lifetime.   So
>>>>> if
>>>>> you don't have decent cane skills this means you are going to need 
>>>>> a human guide, put your life on hold or have two dogs at all times.
>>>>> Seems to me having learned to use a cane would be a good base 
>>>>> skill to have.
>>>>>
>>>>> I know that all of the programs have requirements about being able 
>>>>> to use
>>>
>>>>> a
>>>>>
>>>>> cane or show that you have good O&M skills.  But let's be brutally 
>>>>> honest with ourselves for a minute,  we all know that what passes 
>>>>> for good O&M skills varies widely from program to program.  I also 
>>>>> cannot begin to count
>>>>>
>>>>> the number of stories I have heard from people who attended a 
>>>>> program and had classmates who couldn't find their way around 
>>>>> without significant help.
>>>>>
>>>>> To me it's pretty clear that folks with guide dogs do not all have 
>>>>> good orientation skills.  Perhaps we could work with the guide dog 
>>>>> programs to help them better understand the importance of 
>>>>> acquiring good orientation training before getting a dog.
>>>>>
>>>>> You made the argument that a dog is your preferred mobility tool 
>>>>> and the center programs should support that decision.  I think 
>>>>> they do, but that they also recognize that a dog is a mobility 
>>>>> tool and that there is more to
>>>>>
>>>>> independent travel than mobility.    What if a person went to a center
>>>>> and
>>>>> said they use GPS, so they don't need to learn orientation skills?
>>>>> that would be silly and no one would think that a good idea.  GPS 
>>>>> only goes so far in getting you where you want to go.  It doesn't 
>>>>> tell you when it's safe
>>>>>
>>>>> to cross the street, when there are stairs, when there's road 
>>>>> construction or when a kid has parked his bike across the sidewalk.
>>>>> If someone went to a
>>>>>
>>>>> center and said they didn't need to learn to use the stovetop 
>>>>> because they were going to eat microwave dinners for the rest of 
>>>>> their life, no one would
>>>>>
>>>>> think that a good idea either.   The centers recognize that personal
>>>>> independence through skill training includes a wide variety of skills.
>>>>> It
>>>>> means moving out of your comfort zone and learning new things.
>>>>> Perhaps there are people who only use the microwave to cook, but 
>>>>> the point is that after center training that's a choice, not a
necessity.
>>>>> To me that's what it's really about, having the choice to pick 
>>>>> from a wide variety of skills to find the one that best fits the 
>>>>> particular situation I find myself in.
>>>>>
>>>>> Julie
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> nagdu mailing list
>>>>> nagdu at nfbnet.org
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>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info 
>>>>> for
>>>>> nagdu:
>>>>>
>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/marianne%40dennin
>>> gw
>>> eb.com
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Marianne Denning, TVI, MA
>>>> Teacher of students who are blind or visually impaired
>>>> (513) 607-6053
>>>>
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>>>
>>>
>>>
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>>
>>
>> --
>> Marianne Denning, TVI, MA
>> Teacher of students who are blind or visually impaired
>> (513) 607-6053
>>
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